Music as a force for social and political change.....

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

From Bono to screwdriver, to Sepultura , there are so many.
Personally , I think music and politics don't mix .
I'm probably in the minority.

[musophilr]

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1334932734' post='1623705']
..others might argue that Rap isn't music and that they should just shut up!!
[/quote]

yes, I would

TBH I don't feel comfortable with music that is always pushing a political or philosophical agenda. I think it's right that songwriters should write about things that bother them, about what they believe or think, or about things that are important to them - but after you've heard the umpteenth smash-the-system song you're thinking come on give it a break I want to be entertained!

James Taylor slips a few political comments into his songs and they're often humourous (eg on the subject of money: "You can get your children to try it, you can measure your manhood by it, you can bring your enemies to their knees, with the possible exception of the North Vietnamese" - [i]Money Game[/i]) but he's not always doing it so when he does, you don't mind it. On the other hand one side of a Billy Bragg LP would leave me thinking can't this bloke write songs about anything else?

[janmaat]

I guess it depends. What the "angry young man" has to say will only resonate if people bother. Music has played a huge role in the Arab spring.

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/09/15/7758131-how-rap-music-fueled-the-arab-spring-uprisings

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1334999658' post='1624496']
Bob Dylan didn't pass anyone by. He had some great songs but what did he achieve?
[/quote]

'Hurricane'.

[Monckyman]

Anyone interested in music and political comment in harmony can do a lot worse than New Model Armys last 4 recordings.
This band in particular has maintained a fairly uncompromising stance regarding western militarism and the suppression of so called third world economies.
BTW they declined to participate in Red Wedge at the time but have a strong affinity for Billy Braggs work.
Back in pre 9/11 land they had already written fairly prescient songs called "Flying through the smoke" and "Here comes the War."
Later themes concerned with the implosion of Wall street were gleefully documented in "Today is a good day".
I personally think the most music can change is a haircut, maybe trouser leg size,possibly a girlfriend,but the sharing of information, points of view and a knowledge that there is a counter culture to be explored is plenty to be going on with imo.
MM

[Judo Chop]

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1334938003' post='1623809']
Personally I think the last/current 'angry young man' is Roughton Reynolds of Enter Shikari. Their previous album Common Dreads, drew from the invasion of Iraq and the subsequent political shenanigans. The current album rails against political corruption, the rich/poor divide, the oil trade and other issues facing normal people today.

Well worth a listen. Seeing as the album got to no.4, a lot of people are hearing Shikari's message!

Truckstop

Edit: common dreads reached no.3 in the album charts and they are signed by Atlantic records. So maybe the problem is is that most protest music is rubbish!
[/quote]

I went to see them last month and I think their messages are falling on deaf ears, the room was full of sweaty, topless teenage boys who seemed more interested in grappling each other than listening to them play.

[Bilbo]

These messages and the (limited) power that they have are subliminal. It is difficult to argue that a song can change the world but it can make a difference. 'Do They Know It' Christmas' had an impact. How many of us knew what was happening in Argentina before 'Don't Cry For Me Argentina' or Sting's 'They Dance Alone'? Who many UK residents had heard of Stephen Biko before Peter Gabriel wrote his tribute etc. My point is simply that musicians can say something important whilst they present their Art. Its interesting that musophilr complains about too many smash the world songs when every song we ever hear in the mainstream charts is boy meets girl etc..... You can be subtle or direct. Joni Mitchell's 'Furry Sings The Blues', Pat Metheny's 'Is This America'? (post Katrina New Orleans), Charlie Haden's 'Not In Our Name', John Coltrane's 'Alabama', Max Roach 'Freedom Now Suite', Matana Robert 'Coin Coin Chapter One: Gens De Couler Libre', even Lennon's 'Imagine'.... none of them will change the world but they all remind us that sometimes the world needs changing. Surely that is justification enough?

[buenavista]

Really entralling topic, your posts are excellent.

It's hard for Music to effect change, I think it's down to the individual and their free will.
But I do think that we can be reminded of things we comfortably forget. I guess we have to stay sane and functioning.
Once reminded, by a song, it can be impossible to ever be 'comfortable' again, sometimes there is just no going back
when you get your eyes opened. Many famous musicians get to go and see things we could never hope to experience and some
take it on themselves to say that things are just plain wrong and we should go another way... Music can be very powerful.

I love Killing Joke and their song 'Tiahuanaco' from 'Outside The Gate' haunts me to this day.
There's the First World then there's the rest of the World.
I have never looked at Tourism in the same way since. It took me a long time to admit that what I have is often down to someone else,
somewhere else, going without. My technology and entertainment often being their bloody hard work. So much inequality in the World.

The piano piece at the songs end is often too painful to listen to, have to turn it off.

[skankdelvar]

There's a world of difference between a protest song and a song that protests.

Shipbuilding is a good example of the latter. It makes its point fairly indirectly - the conflict of interests for a working man striving to support his family while building warships in and by which may be killed young men not much older than his son (IIRC the lyrics correctly).

Songs like this have a tremendous power and virtue because they are rooted in specifics and constructed to a human scale. They invite you to reflect and they also sound pretty good.

By contrast, there are any number of exhortative ditties which fall by the wayside, in part because they are simply too explicit and partly because the writer cannot find a word to rhyme with 'proletariat'.

Of course, one can rhyme 'masses' with 'classes', but [i]that[/i] only works if you're singing with a Northern accent. Which explains why there are so few cockney protest singers.

Well, here's the sort of protest song I think Bilbo had in mind:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AeY79vyO-A"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AeY79vyO-A[/url]

Edited April 21, 2012 by skankdelvar

[wateroftyne]

Another master of thoughtful political protest was Alan Hull, now sadly passed.

Here's one of his, following the Shipbuilding theme. This one was banned by the BBC...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkD5pKU7WsE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkD5pKU7WsE[/url]

He was bloody good at rants, too.

[foal30]

The protest song is as much a viable form of pronouncment as any other. Invariably the best protest songs are those which most closley align with our predetermined belief/ideology.

I'm not to sure what to make of those who claim he protest to much. Generally I prefer this too insufferable and trite love songs.

I'd also venture the value of a protest song is measured on the listeners hyporicsy scale. Case in point would be RATM, "f*** you I won't do what ya tell me" , released by Sony, minus the swearing.

FWIW I quite like the Bands Politics in general terms.

Personally I have recieved record reviews praising the music but slagging the political lyrics. If people don;t want to hear the message then the opposition to the recording is more tangble than hey it's another crap love/feelings song.

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1335048308' post='1625289']
By contrast, there are any number of exhortative ditties which fall by the wayside, in part because they are simply too explicit and partly because the writer cannot find a word to rhyme with 'proletariat'.
[/quote]

this is quite explicit [i](kennelled in metered boxes, red dogs in debt to you)[/i]... and from the pen of a lady who is often cited as bob dylan's equal

[url="http://youtu.be/DxUu4yd_ofc"]http://youtu.be/DxUu4yd_ofc[/url]

[louisthebass]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1334965815' post='1624304']
Did Billy Bragg completely pass you by? Love him or hate him you can't deny he was both angry, young and political. And is still one of those things, and proposes alternatives now rather than just shouting no.
[/quote]

No he didn't - I remember hearing "Life's a Riot With Spy vs Spy" when it came out. Bragg was ok, but not in the same league as Weller at the top of his game. I admire his (Bragg's) continuing commitment to his cause, whereas I think Weller's "copped out" since the early Style Council material (by the way, I think The Jam were a much better band than The Style Council, but Weller ended The Jam at the right time).

Just my opinion...

[Bilbo]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1335048308' post='1625289']

Well, here's the sort of protest song I think Bilbo had in mind:

[/quote]

I was thinking about this actually.....

'Alabama' - Coltrane's lament for 4 girls murdered by a racists bomb whilst at Church in Birmingham, Alabama, on Sunday, September 15, 1963.
'
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOjxBuwBUEE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOjxBuwBUEE[/url]

Charles Mingus' parody on Orville Faubus, the Governor who blocked the integration of schools in Little Rock, Arkansas

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XViz4crnYE8&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XViz4crnYE8&feature=related[/url]

[wateroftyne]

...or this:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SswXJX6X-ow"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SswXJX6X-ow[/url]

[Bilbo]

Matana Roberts recent cd based on her family's history as slaves I woudl love to post the track Pov Piti but that may be too much for people to take

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C64lE71q2z0&feature=relmfu"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C64lE71q2z0&feature=relmfu[/url]

Also Max Roach/Abbey Lincoln Freedom Now Suite

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85M7LTbCl-0&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85M7LTbCl-0&feature=related[/url]

Nothing commercial/accessible about any of this but powerful stuff. I suspect none of the artists ever earned much from them but they found their way through....

[Bilbo]

And Billie Holiday's 'Strange Fruit'

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4ZyuULy9zs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4ZyuULy9zs[/url]

[risingson]

I agree with BRX that nowadays songs that 'protest' or have too strong a political message can often appear contrived horribly cliched. But the idea that some of the best music has been born out of times of social and political unrest interests me. The extent to which music has helped achieve any real change I think is somewhat limited, but it has at least brought certain issues to light in some cases. And for someone who is so enthusiastic as me about both music and history, lyrics and music pertaining to social and political struggle will often spark interest in researching and understanding certain things, e.g. if it weren't for 'If You Tolerate This Then Your Children Will Be Next' by the Manic Street Preachers, maybe I wouldn't be so interested in the Spanish Civil War, if it weren't for Chopin then maybe I wouldn't know as much about the 1830/1848 European revolutions and so forth. The Clash's 'Guns of Brixton', Shostakovich's bitter shunning of Stalin's regime through his use of the grotesque etc. etc. It's gone on for years.

So whilst music may not necessarily instigate any real change in politics, certain artists and/or songs can serve as milestones in a historic context by bringing to attention events that have shaped the world in which we live in today. And if that inspires one or two people to take an interest in the events of of the past, then maybe it will help shape their views in the future.

[Bilbo]

I think that is the point. Music and nmusicians can contribute to the debates that are necessary to move issues forward. I think there is considerable merit in that concept, whatever form that takes, rather than the same old 'boy meets girl' stuff that defines most popular music. Doesn't have to take the soul out of it. Protest can be fun....After all, this is a protest song;

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQu892GGbts"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQu892GGbts[/url]

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1335093878' post='1625553']
Music and nmusicians can contribute to the debates that are necessary to move issues forward. I think there is considerable merit in that concept... [/quote]

So do I. And it takes considerably greater lyrical skill to write a 'good' protest song than it does to write a 'good' pop song. The examples posted above are all excellent examples. Contrast the idiotic bogusness and ghastly delivery - both sonic and visual - of 'San Francisco'. Topical, perhaps, but not political.

As for modern youth and their allegedly apolitical music, one might reasonably argue that [i]some[/i] 'whiny indie sh*t' is political, just not in a sense recognisable to those of us accustomed to a broader and more organised form of politics.

The evident popularity of many inward-looking songs - disillusionment, alienation and exclusion - speaks to the existence of a significant number of disaffected younger people to whom organised movements, stirring rhetoric and political parties are the problem, not the solution.

One cannot blame them. Many of the grand objectives us old codgers so grandiloquently espoused seem to have run into the dust, while those hopes that bore fruit have become so much a part of daily life that they are - perhaps understandably - taken for granted.

Perhaps we old streetfighters should pause to review some of 'The Kids' issues as manifested in contemporary popular song. They might not use the traditional words and subject matter, but one might argue that they speak for the concerns of a significant minority of the population. Which makes them political, I suppose.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1335097540' post='1625640']
Perhaps we old streetfighters should pause to review some of 'The Kids' issues as manifested in contemporary popular song. They might not use the traditional words and subject matter, but one might argue that they speak for the concerns of a significant minority of the population. Which makes them political, I suppose.
[/quote]

From a quick perusal of some popular music, I believe we're facing some form of 'booty' crisis. I mean, they've got the dollars; the cribs; the rides - not withstanding the issues with people trying to catch our youngsters riding 'dirty' - but booty is definitely a trending theme.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1335098272' post='1625653']
From a quick perusal of some popular music, [/quote]

I think that your 'some popular music' is different from my 'some popular music'. I mean, yes, lots of booty calls. The more the better, IMO.

But there is also a plethora of whey-faced poppets (step forward Birdy) wandering along monochrome streets trying to look 'concerned' and 'sensitive'. One feels they need a good slap-up roast lunch and an afternoon of old Tommy Cooper shows on DVD. But I digress and not for the first time.

Thing is, the whole political doo-dad might well be going on right under the noses of old class-warriors like Bilbo and I, but we just don't recognise it because no-one's shouting "Sooooooooocialist Worker! Ge-et your Socialist Worker!"

I shall call it the Politics Of The Personal (if someone hasn't called it that already).

[color=#ffffff].[/color]

Edited April 22, 2012 by skankdelvar

[risingson]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1335099030' post='1625665']
I think that your 'some popular music' is different from my 'some popular music'. I mean, yes, lots of booty calls. The more the better, IMO.

But there is also a plethora of whey-faced, gamine poppets (step forward Birdy) wandering along monochrome streets trying to look 'concerned' and 'sensitive'. One feels they need a good slap-up roast lunch and an afternoon of old Tommy Cooper shows on DVD. But I digress and not for the first time.

Thing is, the whole political thing might well be going on right under the noses of old class-warriors like Bilbo and I, but we just don't recognise it because no-one's shouting "Sooooooooocialist Worker! Ge-et your Socialist Worker!"

I shall call it the Politics Of The Personal (if someone hasn't called it that already).
[/quote]

I agree that there is more music out there that alludes to social struggle without being outwardly gushing with political rhetoric. Stuff that we don't even really think about as well.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1335099030' post='1625665']
But there is also a plethora of whey-faced poppets (step forward Birdy) wandering along monochrome streets trying to look 'concerned' and 'sensitive'.
[/quote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLph6ePNkGQ&ob=av2e

[BottomE]

Maybe commercial music in the 21st century is too fragmented and too available to have the sort of clout that it once had. With so many artists, charts, internet radio, internet downloads, youtube etc etc you would be hard pushed to find two people listening to the same thing. Any political message will be snaffled up into all the other babble that is around.

Only 20 years ago it was Top of the Pops and the sunday Top 40 and a couple of music papers. A popular song really was popular and a lot of people would know about it. If there was any message then it would have had more chance to impact more people.

My point is that i don't think anything sells in volume enough to be a force for anything. Its the way that the industry has evolved. From the labels POV why invest in someone that is "risky" when there are plenty of alternatives? I also don't think being political is a selling point these days.