What is it about Rickenbackers?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1334787134' post='1621445']
Really? These are mass produced by the thousand and the finishing comprises dozens of processes and QA checks to produce the final bass. I'm struggling to believe that anything seen in the factory as poor doesn't go back for another go and even more struggling to believe that there are people waiting at the end of the production line playing all the basses sufficiently long time and in various playing contexts finding the 'good' ones (on what basis will they be 'good'?)
[/quote]

Strings going over the pole pieces would be a good start. Fender have this innovation where you can correct that, its a pretty popular piece of design among most manufacturers. Look back over the thread and you can see the quality control issues mentioned.

[geofio]

i have been playing these basses since i was 19 i am now 50, they all sound different and they are difficult basses to get a sound with if you dont use the right equipment to bring out the tone of the bass . the 4001 was a more consistent bass in my opinion , there were more of those that sounded like other 4001,s, the 4003 is a more difficult beast to tame , it is all in the set up initially, once you have a good sound from the bass it should stay that way if you dont,t muck around with it. i have tried quite a few and own a few, they all sound so different and it all depends on the sound you are after, if it,s the geddy lee thing, that is not so easy as you need an instrument that has that ringing tone to begin with and they dont all have that no matter what rickenbacker say in their sale lingo. i have played outstanding rics and i have played very average rics. unfortunately there are more 4003,s that are average than outstanding, as a user i have found it hard to find a ric with an outstanding tone, but there are so many variables like any other bass, on the whole they are well made, rickenbacker should be looking at the bridge of the bass as that is the weak point in my own opinion. otherwise the finish is second to none there are 4001,s and 4003,s still being played after 30 or 40 years of constant use not bad value for an instrument.

[Beedster]

Have to say that as someone who has owned over twenty Fender Precisions in his time, all the issues regarding QC and inconsistency of Rics are equally applicable to those instrument; some rang out, some had no sustain or ring at all; some had dead spots, some didn't; some weighed over 5kgs, some considerably less. These things are to a certain extent a function of the unpredictable qualities of the raw materials used so are forgivable. Not forgivable though are those on which, for example the neck and the bridge simply hadn't been aligned so the strings were nowhere near the pole pieces, and couldn't be got there without modifications to the woodwork (i.e., it wasn't simply a loose pocket), those that required the fitting of an aftermarket bridge with greater saddle/string length adjustment to intone correctly, and those on which, inexplicably, the neck pocked was almost 10% larger than the standard Precision heel (and amazingly Fender still have a problem with oversized pockets even with their highly rated post-2009 models, a cynic would perhaps suggest it's a deliberate design feature as it provides more degrees of freedom for poorly aligned bridges and PUPs?). IMO Ric and Fender share more characteristics than you'd expect; both (until recently) fitted crap bridges to even their most expensive instruments; both rely strongly on legacy instruments (long running lines, reissues etc); both have done little to innovate, Fender following the innovations of those who built copies of their instruments, Ric seemingly refusing to believe that innovation is necessary etc etc

Now, I have also owned over ten Stingrays (pre and post EB) and guess what....? OK, at least EBMM innovate and appear to respond to both the market place and to feedback from players to a greater degree than do Fender or Ric, but their QC is still questionable (see the recent thread on here regarding an especially poor example of EBMM QC and customer service in response). i quite literally shredded the skin of my left hand gigging a new 'ray with very poorly finished frets in 2008, I've similarly cut fingers of my right hand on very poorly finished pole pieces (made worse by the fact i often really had to dig in on the G given that the combination of instrument and circuit seem unable to amplify it to the same degree as the other three strings on at least 50% of 'rays).

I don't mind Rcs being bashed on tone etc because that's a horses for courses issue, but IME their QC is no worse than any of the other large scale manufacturers.

[Beedster]

Probably worth mentioning also that my Precisions varies hugely in tone; my 1982 '62RI was so bright and zingy (with endless sustain) that no matter what strings i has on it, I found it entirely unsuitable for the music I was playing; my '73 was dark and thumpy with virtually no highs and no sustain; my '64 was sweet as can be imagined but - bizarrely - sounded not unlike my present Ric v63 (the Ric is slightly more scooped with both PUPs wide open); and my '79 was very clanky, very JJB. Same with 'rays, my 1980 sounded like a Precision, my 2006 like a Jazz; I could, as you know, go on.....

[leftybassman392]

Don't know about anybody else but my eyes are starting to hurt!

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1334820668' post='1621657']
I don't mind Rcs being bashed on tone etc because that's a horses for courses issue, but IME their QC is no worse than any of the other large scale manufacturers.
[/quote]

Thing is, they supposedly aren't a large scale manufacturer, they are pulling the 'family owned business' and exclusivity thing. I'm still pressing to cut brand out of the judgement of basses, but the Fender style/attitude makes issues much easier to correct since they let aftermarket parts makers do their thing.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1334835670' post='1622042']
Thing is, they supposedly aren't a large scale manufacturer, they are pulling the 'family owned business' and exclusivity thing. I'm still pressing to cut brand out of the judgement of basses, but the Fender style/attitude makes issues much easier to correct since they let aftermarket parts makers do their thing.
[/quote]

Pity Leo Quan or Hipshot don't make drop in neck pockets

Not sure I agree with you on that, OK Ric aren't at the scale of Fender, but neither are they Wal. Or perhaps I missed your point?

[4000]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1334835670' post='1622042']
Thing is, they supposedly aren't a large scale manufacturer, they are pulling the 'family owned business' and exclusivity thing. I'm still pressing to cut brand out of the judgement of basses, but the Fender style/attitude makes issues much easier to correct since they let aftermarket parts makers do their thing.
[/quote]

You can get aftermarket parts for Rics. Hipshot, Badass, SD, Bartolini, etc.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1334836020' post='1622055']
Pity Leo Quan or Hipshot don't make drop in neck pockets

Not sure I agree with you on that, OK Ric aren't at the scale of Fender, but neither are they Wal. Or perhaps I missed your point?
[/quote]

Can get bodies and necks, that does it. The point in that go back to the defences of RICs actions and attitude being because they are a small family run company. Can't have cake an eat it.

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1334836414' post='1622068']
You can get aftermarket parts for Rics. Hipshot, Badass, SD, Bartolini, etc.
[/quote]

Hipshot had to redesign the bridge to look less like the original because of RIC legal action. They've made similar threats to various other aftermarket parts makers, anything that retains the look regardless of improved function. Hence the pickups made looking different. Equivalent to stopping P bass pickups having the dominoes look.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1334838638' post='1622120']
Can get bodies and necks, that does it.
[/quote]

So you're saying that any crap QC at Fender is OK because if you get a crap part (e.g., neck pocket) you can replace it with aftermarket one from another company (e.g., a Warmoth body)

Think we're having different arguments actually mate so ignore the above, there seem to be a lot of converging Ric-based discussions at present on this forum!

C

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1334839722' post='1622138']
So you're saying that any crap QC at Fender is OK because if you get a crap part (e.g., neck pocket) you can replace it with aftermarket one from another company (e.g., a Warmoth body)
[/quote]

Think they licence them to the other companies, so still Fender endorsed. Although should I buy a new one with such an error (which I basically wouldn't, because I don't pay for brands when I can achieve same function elsewhere) it would be a warranty call. It is the attitude of actively stopping the option of improving/sorting such issues that is problematic. Fender quality control suffers from the immense scale of production, but they are happy to allow for the issues to be correctable. RIC don't have the first excuse, and don't allow for the latter.

[Beedster]

I think I've kinda lost sight of what the original discussion actually was, but is Ric's QC as bad as Fender's, or is there simply a wide variability in sound etc from Rics (i.e., do they tend to build each the same but due to the vagaries of wood they sound different, or do they realy build each insturment differently)? Personally as I said above, I have found far worse QC with Fender than with Ric. Also, surely the massive scale -and therefore more automated processes - of Fender should reduce issues not increase them?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1334842050' post='1622201']
I think I've kinda lost sight of what the original discussion actually was, but is Ric's QC as bad as Fender's, or is there simply a wide variability in sound etc from Rics (i.e., do they tend to build each the same but due to the vagaries of wood they sound different, or do they realy build each insturment differently)? Personally as I said above, I have found far worse QC with Fender than with Ric. Also, surely the massive scale -and therefore more automated processes - of Fender should reduce issues not increase them?
[/quote]

Don't really know why Fender have been brought into it at all. Whole point is brand is an overrated consideration, and is the main source of the disconnect between price and quality. RIC work the brand thing to the point where it overrides all other considerations. The Fender comparison mostly acts to show what not doing that does, mostly giving people more options, both under and outside of the Fender brand.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1334842253' post='1622205']
Don't really know why Fender have been brought into it at all. Whole point is brand is an overrated consideration, and is the main source of the disconnect between price and quality. RIC work the brand thing to the point where it overrides all other considerations. The Fender comparison mostly acts to show what not doing that does, mostly giving people more options, both under and outside of the Fender brand.
[/quote]

Ah, now I get it, analogous to tech companies then, Apple = Ric, MS = Fender?

Makes me even prouder proud to own a RIC

In all seriousness you make very good points and probably know far more about it than I do, I just don't think I agree with you

C

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1334843307' post='1622225']
Ah, now I get it, analogous to tech companies then, Apple = Ric, MS = Fender?
[/quote]

If RIC were apple, they wouldn't have jack outputs, only some special connector only compatible with RIC amps and cables. Hope they don't see that idea. Fender are more open source, lots of people work off the platform they provide, and they are pretty much free to do so.

[bassmachine2112]

[u]Hi I think I,ve got it[/u]
Rickenbacker has carved a niche for itself in the instrument market.A pretty big niche by all acounts.
By running the business as they do they have kept demand for their product high and kept resale values at a premium .
They appear to be a small cottage industry with family values of days of yore but underneath is a business heart harder than their fretwire.
They do make great instruments which appeal to some and evoque feelings bordering on hatred to others.
In short they have a brand loyalty which is enviable.Never in fashion and never out.
I have one myself which I,ve had for 13 years now and it,s a great bass.
I hope this is what the original thread was about .

[Beedster]

[quote name='bassmachine2112' timestamp='1334847591' post='1622299']
[u]Hi I think I,ve got it[/u]
Rickenbacker has carved a niche for itself in the instrument market.A pretty big niche by all acounts.
By running the business as they do they have kept demand for their product high and kept resale values at a premium .
They appear to be a small cottage industry with family values of days of yore but underneath is a business heart harder than their fretwire.
They do make great instruments which appeal to some and evoque feelings bordering on hatred to others.
In short they have a brand loyalty which is enviable.Never in fashion and never out.
I have one myself which I,ve had for 13 years now and it,s a great bass.
I hope this is what the original thread was about .
[/quote]

Great post

[spongebob]

+1 from me as well.

[4000]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1334838638' post='1622120']
Can get bodies and necks, that does it. The point in that go back to the defences of RICs actions and attitude being because they are a small family run company. Can't have cake an eat it.



Hipshot had to redesign the bridge to look less like the original because of RIC legal action. They've made similar threats to various other aftermarket parts makers, anything that retains the look regardless of improved function. Hence the pickups made looking different. Equivalent to stopping P bass pickups having the dominoes look.
[/quote]

I don't personally see this as a problem. If they were my designs I wouldn't want other people to copy them either. Anyway, if the designs/parts are so crap, why would anybody want copies of the same?

Edited April 19, 2012 by 4000

[Musky]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1334854655' post='1622463']
I don't personally see this as a problem. If they were my designs I wouldn't want other people to copy them either. Anyway, if the designs/parts are so crap, why would anybody want copies of the same?
[/quote]
I think all the parts mentioned above aren't actually copies - they just fit in the place of the original RIC part.

At a tangent slightly, but has Hipshot actually changed their design? Just looked at their website and the footprint (the bit JH had a problem with) looks to be the same.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1334856220' post='1622505']
I think all the parts mentioned above aren't actually copies - they just fit in the place of the original RIC part.

At a tangent slightly, but has Hipshot actually changed their design? Just looked at their website and the footprint (the bit JH had a problem with) looks to be the same.
[/quote]

Think there was some messing about with the curve/angle at the edges, so side by side they are different, but obviously Hipshot aimed to look as similar as they can. There mere fact they have replacement parts shows the need for them. you know there is something wrong when they stop people doing better instead of doing better themselves.

[Stacker]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1334858425' post='1622544']
. you know there is something wrong when they stop people doing better instead of doing better themselves.
[/quote]

True. But then again, RIC revamped the tailpiece unit back in, what, the early '90s? and put two extra screws at the rear to counteract tail-lift. Then, the word I heard was they rescinded this modification cos the waffen thought it sacriledge! Go figure.

[4000]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1334858425' post='1622544']
Think there was some messing about with the curve/angle at the edges, so side by side they are different, but obviously Hipshot aimed to look as similar as they can. There mere fact they have replacement parts shows the need for them. you know there is something wrong when they stop people doing better instead of doing better themselves.
[/quote]

But the Hipshot isn't better IMO. Just like the Schaller bridge I put on my early 70s P Bass which functioned better but made it sound worse IMO (Scott Thunes says the same about the time he fitted a Badass - IIRC - to his P; he took it straight off again). Some of these changes can have an affect on tone and can be detrimental. FWIW I also have it on good authority (never tried one myself) that the Hipshot doesn't go as low as the Ric bridge which could be a issue. I've also heard of instances where the Hipshot rattles.

Some people will always feel the need to replace something because it doesn't give them what they want. Take a P bass. how many replacement pickups are there out there? Yet it appears no one is indisputably better than the rest. Because at the end of the day it comes down to preference. Also, where you might feel the need to modify one P, you might not feel the need to modify another, or where one person feels the need to modify, another may not.

With regards to Donny's point, this is probably the case. John Hall has stated previously that (contrary to what people keep saying about them not wanting to make changes) there ARE things he would change about the 4000 series but that the customers wouldn't accept them.

Personally I think the extras screws don't look as clean aesthetically, but then both my Rics have the earlier aluminium tailpiece which doesn't lift, so I don't need them.

Edited April 20, 2012 by 4000

[4000]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1334856220' post='1622505']
I think all the parts mentioned above aren't actually copies - they just fit in the place of the original RIC part.


[/quote]

That was kind of my point. But what they do is replace the original part and "do a better job" (or not, as your preference will dictate).

Edited April 20, 2012 by 4000

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1334930460' post='1623649']
both my Rics have the earlier aluminium tailpiece which doesn't lift, so I don't need them.
[/quote]

Would you replace those with the ones that do tail lift though?

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1334930460' post='1623649']
Some people will always feel the need to replace something because it doesn't give them what they want. Take a P bass. how many replacement pickups are there out there? Yet it appears no one is indisputably better than the rest.
[/quote]

That choice is what means you can get the better one.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Mr. Foxen