Music performance volume and EU regulations

[Paul Cooke]

[url="http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3676238.ece"]http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol...icle3676238.ece[/url]

talking about noise levels in the orchestra pit, but it could equally apply to sound level on stage for the performers as you get exposed to it regularly...

[bremen]

or get us to wear earplugs, which seems sensible.

[cheddatom]

sensible? THIS IS POLITICAL CORRCTNESS GONE MAD! IT'S ALL BRUSSELS FAULT!!!!



Does this legislation effect bands venues, pubs and clubs? If so, when the f*ck will they turn their music down so that I can order a drink, or god forbid have a conversation!

[Buzz]

Hmm, someone needs to get handy with the old pipet and work out how to genetically modify humans so that the hairs in your ear do regenerate (and sort out eyes too while you're at it).

[3V17C]

i read about this in another paper the other day (meant to post on here about it but forgot!) - apparently yes it does affect pubs and other venues too. Live bands, music, discos, karaoke whatever can now be no louder than 85db or face fines etc etc. All to protect the hearing of the bar staff apparently. If its true and its enforced its another pretty major blow to live music. I'm sure theres others on here with more detailed info.

peace

c

[cheddatom]

is it 85dB strict limit, or 85db average or what? You'd think 90 would be ok for gigs? Maybe not. Still, I am sick of going to see bands play and having to put ear plugs in. What's the point in having it that loud? And going to clubs where you have to point at your drinks, you can't talk to anyone, and as soon as you step outside you're deafened by the ringing in your ears.

[neepheid]

I've maintained for some time that venues need to cool things off a notch, if anything to avoid unnecessary distortion. But yes, being able to order a drink without pointing would also be good.

[bremen]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='171551' date='Apr 7 2008, 04:07 PM']is it 85dB strict limit, or 85db average or what? You'd think 90 would be ok for gigs? Maybe not.[/quote]

I might be misunderstanding this, but doesn't the legislation compel managers to protect the staff's hearing by issuing them with appropriate safety equipment, ie earplugs? I mean, road drills and aircraft aren't banned; similarly loud amplification isn't.

I hope I'm right.

The figures are average, not peak.

[alexclaber]

Since ever louder PA systems have become cheaper and cheaper yet the operators' ability to restrain themselves from turning it up to eleven has remained just as lacking, I'm not surprised to see this happening. I welcome the days when small pub gigs stop miking up the drums and trying to shake the walls with kick through subs to boost the sound engineer's ego.

Clearly bar staff will have to provided with ear plugs when there is any music playing - combine a packed pub with 'background' music loud enough to be heard over a few hundred drunken voices and you'll be pushing 85dB. Add a band into the mix and you're looking at 100dB plus on a quiet day.

Alex

[tauzero]

The Roadhouse now has one of these systems in. I think it's badly calibrated - it's cutting out bands on open mic night which aren't exactly loud, in fact we go through the auxiliary PA. If it isn't badly calibrated then gigs are going to be awfully quiet affairs. And I take hearing damage seriously, as I suffer from tinnitus.

[Buzz]

I can see the need for leglislation, I mean come on, if you asked Joe Public on the streets, most of them wouldn't think that when you get ringing it's causing irreversible damage, let alone that 85db is the max limit you really should put yourself at without protection for any sort of period of time.

[bremen]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='171562' date='Apr 7 2008, 04:22 PM']Since ever louder PA systems have become cheaper and cheaper yet the operators' ability to restrain themselves from turning it up to eleven has remained just as lacking, I'm not surprised to see this happening. I welcome the days when small pub gigs stop miking up the drums and trying to shake the walls with kick through subs to boost the sound engineer's ego.


Alex[/quote]

Can I just hijack this thread for a minute: I totally agree with Alex about forcing everything through the PA in small venues. We played in a tiny venue a couple of weeks back (you could probably get 80 bodies in there) and they miked bass drum, snare and tom-toms. And the bass. And the guitars (Marshall 100W and 4x12s). I didn't hear a single word that any of the singers uttered that night; I felt for them, they write the songs but might as well be farting in tune. The bass was just that horrible low-mid mush where you're aware it's playing but you can hear neither its tone or its pitch. The PA, of course, didn't go below 100Hz anyway so you didn't even get your trousers flapped as a consolation prize. Gah.

Christ, what a grumpy old man I'm becoming. But it's not a case of 'if it's too loud you're too old'. I love a loud band, just so long as the PA is up to it, the venue is big enough and the guy on the mixer has some understanding of what music is meant to sound like.

Sorry. Back to topic...

[Huge Hands]

This legislation has been out for a long time now.

AFAI understand it, the venue is ok to be loud (local council restrictions allowing), but if so, the venue must provide protection for staff hearing above a certain threshold (used to be 90dBSPL, I think it's now 85).

They do not have to provide it for the venue-goers, because they have the choice to walk out. It is to do with constant exposure, rather than 5 mins at a time.

However, as someone rightly said, bar staff, for example, may be in a venue for 8 hours or more with only a few short breaks. They need to be protected. It was with staff like this in mind who don't have a choice (other than not taking the job) that the smoking ban was introduced for.

I think it probably does need to happen. I have been to some nightclubs where the wrong cabs have been used with piercing long throw horns and are running at full tilt in a very small room. It wouldn't have helped me as a punter, but I imagine the staff certainly suffer.

I actually used to oppose it because I was a FOH sound man and wanted to show off my 40KW rig to the best of its glory. However, as I get older (I'm only 30!!) and realise my hearing is not what it used to be, I think responsibility is needed. I think it's silly to stick earplugs in so you can have it louder. Just keep it a bit lower!

However, to summarise, I do feel 85dSPL in some large venues where the background chatter of the punters can reach that is unrealistic. I always felt in 3000 seat style venues, 100dB was still reasonably low but was enough to keep the punters attention.

Just my take on it.

Edited April 7, 2008 by Huge Hands

[cheddatom]

I've heard about these systems that cut the stage power and such when the level gets too loud. That seems like an obviously stupid idea to me. Couldn't they just have a warning light? How could this possibly work on average level rather than peak?

I want venues to play music quieter, but I don't want a band to be cut off mid song.

Incidentally I wouldn't mind if they cut short "panic at the disco" or whatever sh*t they're playing at my local "rock" club (which is not really a rock club at all )

[Buzz]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='171596' date='Apr 7 2008, 04:57 PM']I've heard about these systems that cut the stage power and such when the level gets too loud. That seems like an obviously stupid idea to me. Couldn't they just have a warning light? How could this possibly work on average level rather than peak?

I want venues to play music quieter, but I don't want a band to be cut off mid song.

Incidentally I wouldn't mind if they cut short "panic at the disco" or whatever sh*t they're playing at my local "rock" club (which is not really a rock club at all )[/quote]

If you know the owners, you could modifiy a sponge so to speak.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Buzz' post='171599' date='Apr 7 2008, 05:02 PM']If you know the owners, you could modifiy a sponge so to speak.[/quote]

Sorry if this is stupid, but what does that mean?

[3V17C]

i'm guessing he means covering up the mic thing on the noise limiter so that it doesn't go off so readily - a band did that at a local venue near here, covering the limiter in gaffa, foam and allsorts. unfortunatley that was the night the council came to check on volume levels..... oops!



peace

c

[Huge Hands]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='171596' date='Apr 7 2008, 04:57 PM']I've heard about these systems that cut the stage power and such when the level gets too loud. That seems like an obviously stupid idea to me. Couldn't they just have a warning light? How could this possibly work on average level rather than peak?[/quote]

This raises an interesting point that I think we all need to be aware of.

One of the major factors that can work against a sound man in a venue, trying to get a good sound, is backline. I was technical manager for a campus of several venues about five years ago and walked into one of them and it sounded absolutely sh*te.

The engineer had been given a dBSPL meter and told to keep the levels down (not by me, decision was made above my head, mainly because they didn't want to fork out for PPE!).

He had put the meter mic on the front of his control position, and appeared to be mixing with that, rather than his ears. What he hadn't realised was, and I was able to demonstrate to him by turning the PA for a few seconds in the guitar solo bit, was that the backline (which was obviously facing him) was producing more than 90dB itself. The only way for him to have a good sound that gig would have been to turn the rig up so that he could make a decent mix around the room. At the designated level, in a 3000 seat venue, we only had vocals going through the PA, with reverby backline from stage. It was a bad night.

You will find that all SPL meter shut offs run from a mic in the room, so it doesn't have to be the PA that causes the shut off. In the really small venues, the drummer can probably create that noise level himself. I know ours can make my ears ring when he's excited!

Engineers can be selfish, angry obnoxious people, but it's no good heaping all the blame on them. Bands need to take responsibility too. I've walked both sides of the fence, so I can speak from experience.

Tauzero, you are correct. 85dB is pretty quiet.

[markytbass]

I was going to start a topic on gig volume a few days ago, a mate at work is currenty deaf in one ear after going to a gig. Some bands and some venues crank it up far too loud. I went to a mates party last year and the band were so loud you couldn't hear what they were trying to play. However if you stood outside the levels were ok and you could actually start enjoy the music. So it's not just the musicians and bar staff who are at risk from damaged hearing, it's the audience also.

When I started out all those years ago the PA was used for vocals only. These days some bands put everything through the PA drums and all, no matter what size the venue is. I agree that using a PA can give you more control over the sound levels but this only works if the back line is set to a sensable volume.

These laws may seem silly and a bit of a killjoy but at the end of the day you need to protect your hearing and that of others.

[WalMan]

[quote name='3V17C' post='171610' date='Apr 7 2008, 05:15 PM']i'm guessing he means covering up the mic thing on the noise limiter so that it doesn't go off so readily - a band did that at a local venue near here, covering the limiter in gaffa, foam and allsorts. unfortunatley that was the night the council came to check on volume levels..... oops![/quote]
I used to suffer these horrors when playing WMC's 20 years back. The problem tended to be they were fed by a crap mike that usually had a really tight frequency band so that the bass could be as loud as you like, but touch the snare with the brushes & it tripped. A pin through the mike cable usually did the trick of killing it without being as obvious as a big lump of foam that would probably just shift the killer frequency, or so I was told

Always used to be a mad panic to kill the amps before the power came back with a massive spike. What it might do to today's digital toys I dread to think

Edited April 7, 2008 by WalMan

[tauzero]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='171596' date='Apr 7 2008, 04:57 PM']I've heard about these systems that cut the stage power and such when the level gets too loud. That seems like an obviously stupid idea to me. Couldn't they just have a warning light? How could this possibly work on average level rather than peak?[/quote]
The first one that I encountered, 25 years ago at Hopwas British Legion, operated on a peak level. Hit the threshold and it cut. The one at the Roadhouse requires 5 seconds continuous above the threshold - a sustained vocal note, for example, while the drums are playing a fair bit (the open mic night setup is to have everything through the PA, but drumwise that's just an overhead and a bass drum). There is a warning light but it's not exactly in your eyeline. I suspect that the unit could be better placed anyway, it's right by the stage.

[bass_ferret]

As others have said these were very common 20 years ago, I even tripped one tuning up (before we had tuners). The problem is a lot of people talking in a confined space on its own can exceed 85db, after they have had a few drinks.

[jakenewmanbass]

I've come accross these meters in places where residential noise limits exist, the really stupid thing I've found is that they seem to be less sensitive to bass frequencies than higher register, due to the long wave length of bass notes they penetrate solids easily (hence cavers using long wave radio underground for rescues) so its the bass the residents will hear, and it seems (can't be categorical about it) that bass is the last thing to set them off.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='172046' date='Apr 8 2008, 09:37 AM']As others have said these were very common 20 years ago, I even tripped one tuning up (before we had tuners). The problem is a lot of people talking in a confined space on its own can exceed 85db, after they have had a few drinks.[/quote]
[quote name='jakesbass' post='172059' date='Apr 8 2008, 10:05 AM']I've come accross these meters in places where residential noise limits exist, the really stupid thing I've found is that they seem to be less sensitive to bass frequencies than higher register, due to the long wave length of bass notes they penetrate solids easily (hence cavers using long wave radio underground for rescues) so its the bass the residents will hear, and it seems (can't be categorical about it) that bass is the last thing to set them off.[/quote]
Well I was tuning with harmonics

[alexclaber]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='172059' date='Apr 8 2008, 10:05 AM']I've come accross these meters in places where residential noise limits exist, the really stupid thing I've found is that they seem to be less sensitive to bass frequencies than higher register[/quote]

I believe all these devices tend to use A-weighting, thus:

10Hz 12,5Hz 16Hz 20Hz 25Hz 31,5Hz 40Hz 50Hz
-70,4dB -63,4dB -56,7dB -50,5dB -44,7dB -39,4dB -34,6dB -30,2dB

63Hz 80Hz 100Hz 125Hz 160Hz 200Hz 250Hz 315Hz
-26,2dB -22,5dB -19,1dB -16,1dB -13,4dB -10,9dB -8,6dB -6,6dB

400Hz 500Hz 630Hz 800Hz 1kHz 1,25kHz 1,6kHz 2kHz
-4,8dB -3,2dB -1,9dB -0,8dB 0dB +0,6dB +1,0dB +1,2dB

2,5kHz 3,15kHz 4kHz 5kHz 6,3kHz 8kHz 10kHz 12,5kHz
+1,3dB +1,2dB +1,0dB +0,5dB -0,1dB -1,1dB -2,5dB -4,3dB

16kHz 20kHz
-6,6dB -9,3dB

The human ear at lower volumes is close to A-weighting in how it references loudness (phons) but as you say this totally fails to consider how bass goes through walls and treble doesn't. What would make more sense if neighbours are complaining is an A-weighed meter outside the venue, but obviously that isn't practical either.

Alex