Anyone Out There With a Wal Fretless With a Coated Fingerboard?

[AndroWal]

Curious if anyone out there has ever coated their Wal fretless fingerboard with an epoxy or like coating.

If so....what is your opinion of the result...like, dislike, issues, regrets, happy you did it...did you lose any "Wal-ness?"

Thanks.

Edited November 15, 2011 by AndroWal

[Spoombung]

I've often wondered about this and I'm also curious. My fretless fingerboard is a bit chewed up, to be honest.

[Kiwi]

Can be risky. Traditoinally thick coats are needed for durability and the thicker the coat the more brittle the coating gets. So if put on a neck that flexes a lot, there's a risk of cracking. Can't comment specifically on Wal necks and I'm aware that HG Thor has treated one piece maple necks without issues. Maybe the epoxy is a little thinner or a little more flexible these days...?

[henry norton]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1321349169' post='1437972']
Can be risky. Traditoinally thick coats are needed for durability and the thicker the coat the more brittle the coating gets. So if put on a neck that flexes a lot, there's a risk of cracking. Can't comment specifically on Wal necks and I'm aware that HG Thor has treated one piece maple necks without issues. Maybe the epoxy is a little thinner or a little more flexible these days...?
[/quote]
I'm interested in where you've experienced these issues with thick epoxy coats. I provide an epoxy coating service and have never had any problems with cracking - are you sure it wasn't a Fender style polyester coating you've seen with cracks?

I also wasn't aware Wal offered coated fretless boards. (oops, sorry, I didn't read the original post properly - A 'normal' epoxy coat of about 1mm doesn't really affect the sound very much at all. In fact, most players would find it difficult to detect the difference in sound between an unfinished board, a 1mm coating and a Jaco style 3mm 'thick' coating. I'm sure with an adaptable bass like a Wal you wouldn't lose any tone or flexibility).

Edited November 15, 2011 by henry norton

[Chris2112]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1321349169' post='1437972']
Can be risky. Traditoinally thick coats are needed for durability and the thicker the coat the more brittle the coating gets. So if put on a neck that flexes a lot, there's a risk of cracking. Can't comment specifically on Wal necks and I'm aware that HG Thor has treated one piece maple necks without issues. Maybe the epoxy is a little thinner or a little more flexible these days...?
[/quote]

This is an issue. My Zoot fretless had a cracked finish along the side of the neck. It was a graphite neck with an ebony fingerboard, and over the past 13 years the ebony has obviously expanded or shrunk slightly, causing the finish on the side of the neck to crack. It was imperceptible to the fingers when you were playing, though it looked a little bit tatty. Not a huge problem to fix (which I looked into) but I thought it would only happen again. So yes, this sort of thing has to be looked at carefully. I can recall playing a couple of fretless jazz basses with epoxied boards that were badly chipped and cracked.

[philw]

Strikes me that even Wal owners that expect to be buried with their bass, like me, are aware of its value. Value that epoxy on the fingerboard would undoubtedly destroy.

I am going to get a vinyl roof on my Ferrari though.

Phil

[Kiwi]

[quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1321369540' post='1438295']
I'm interested in where you've experienced these issues with thick epoxy coats. I provide an epoxy coating service and have never had any problems with cracking - are you sure it wasn't a Fender style polyester coating you've seen with cracks?[/quote]
I'm not sure what a "Fender style" coating is but could well have been poly rather than epoxy. I know poly is favoured by Thor and Pedulla and there have been posts on Talkbass about issues with neck flexibility on poly coated necks. Which is why some manufacturers won't offer it on their fretless necks. I'm no expert but I have a hunch that epoxy may be softer than poly...?

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1321379350' post='1438503']
This is an issue. My Zoot fretless had a cracked finish along the side of the neck. It was a graphite neck with an ebony fingerboard, and over the past 13 years the ebony has obviously expanded or shrunk slightly, causing the finish on the side of the neck to crack. It was imperceptible to the fingers when you were playing, though it looked a little bit tatty. Not a huge problem to fix (which I looked into) but I thought it would only happen again. So yes, this sort of thing has to be looked at carefully. I can recall playing a couple of fretless jazz basses with epoxied boards that were badly chipped and cracked.[/quote]
Some superglue in the gaps would probably sort that out I'd imagine. Then buff residue flat.

[henry norton]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1321381230' post='1438530']
I'm not sure what a "Fender style" coating is but could well have been poly rather than epoxy. I know poly is favoured by Thor and Pedulla and there have been posts on Talkbass about issues with neck flexibility on poly coated necks. Which is why some manufacturers won't offer it on their fretless necks. I'm no expert but I have a hunch that epoxy may be softer than poly...?
[/quote]
Yes, by Fender style I mean the 70s fretless maple necks with a thick polyester coating on the board. I know Mike Pedulla uses polyester on his lined fretless boards but I always thought Thor was [i]the [/i]epoxy man as it goes[i].[/i]

Hardness is different to toughness (hardness as in how easily the board wears out and toughness as in how difficult it is to break, crack or chip it) - polyester as a material tends to be both softer and less tough than epoxy - the main advantage is that it's allot cheaper than epoxy, but that said, there may be some super hard versions of polyester I haven't heard of.

[Bass Culture]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1321381230' post='1438530']
Some superglue in the gaps would probably sort that out I'd imagine. Then buff residue flat.
[/quote]

Bugger - wish I'd thought of that before I took it back to Mike Walsh to do the work after I bought it off Chris!!

[Chris2112]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1321381230' post='1438530']

Some superglue in the gaps would probably sort that out I'd imagine. Then buff residue flat.
[/quote]

the previous owner of the bass got the neck refinished in 2006 and it's happened again since. I suppose some superglue may work.

[Bass Culture]

[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1321383648' post='1438580']
the previous owner of the bass got the neck refinished in 2006 and it's happened again since. I suppose some superglue may work.
[/quote]

I'll have to see if I can get a guarantee out of Mike then! Chris - terrific bass btw. (Apolgies to OP for digressing)

[Shaggy]

[quote name='philw' timestamp='1321380877' post='1438523']
Strikes me that even Wal owners that expect to be buried with their bass, like me, are aware of its value. Value that epoxy on the fingerboard would undoubtedly destroy.

I am going to get a vinyl roof on my Ferrari though.

Phil
[/quote]

+1
An ebony board doesn't need a coating IMO. I've an '85 fretless Wal Mk1 Custom and a '78 fretless Ovation Magnum 1, both with ebony boards, both had heavy use with roundwounds, both with so little wear it's negligable.

I think the lined fretless Wals had rosewood boards though - which would wear faster, but I personally still wouldn't mod a Wal.

[Kiwi]

The coating can always be sanded off so its not like the mod is irreversible.

[AndroWal]

Thanks for your replies.

My interest is not due to wear. I've had Wal fretlesses for years...one for 20 and only dressed the fingerboard once about 12 years ago. Probably didn't need to and I played that one each day....but it was suggested.

My interest is sound. I've also owned a Pedulla Pentabuzz and my own experience and in listening to others I find that a coated fingerboard is a bit brighter than just ebony. Even with a Zon with its fingerboard of layers of wood and resin, which is really hard, I think more so than ebony, Michael Manring has his coated and you can hear the bit of extra zing.

Just thinking of doing this to one of my Wal fretlesses and wanted to gather opinion. I'm not worried about loss of value. It can be reversed and in any old instrument you can have wear that might require new frets, a new fingerboard, new capacitors, etc. Just need to get the right people to do it! And now we are fortunate to have Paul Herman in his shop.

I thought I'd read somewhere here of a player that coated his Wal fretless and again, was hoping to learn of that experience....all is food for thought though...thank you again!

Edited November 16, 2011 by AndroWal

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1321381230' post='1438530'] I'm no expert but I have a hunch that epoxy may be softer than poly...?
[/quote]As with polyester and polyurethane, epoxy can be formulated to have differing levels of hardness and flexibility. Some also require very precise mixing while others are more forgiving. The store I used to by mine at had shelves full of different kinds, adhesion to oily woods and temperature ratings are other areas they vary widely.

Superglue has also been used and my main fretless has a polymerized tung oil finish that has been surprisingly durable with roundwounds.

[BassBod]

I've seen Tru Oil (polymerised Tung) recommended as a good finish to toughen rosewood or ebony boards - but I've never found it here in the UK. Can't imagine it would modify the sound much, just make the board more resistant to deep wear marks. I've also done a few superglue coatings over the years - its a slow process with obvious hazards...but you can get a very thin coating which is very strong and really brightens up the mmmwwwaww (for want of a better word). Not really instant Jaco in a tube, but it does change the character of the fretless into a brighter more singing sound than wooden boards (even ebony).

A friend of mine has a great factory fretless Wal ProIIE - the board on that was called "parrotshit" by Pete the Fish. Looks like rosewood, but its not - it is a whole lot tougher and hardly shows much string wear after at least 25 years of solid playing. Sounds lovely (when he plays it).

[Beer of the Bass]

Tru-oil can be obtained from hunting/shooting/fishing type places as it is intended for gunstocks. I've only used it as a very thin wipe-on finish on a body, so I can't comment on hardness, but you'd need a large number of coats as it goes on very thinly.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='BassBod' timestamp='1321466259' post='1439570']
I've seen Tru Oil (polymerised Tung) recommended as a good finish to toughen rosewood or ebony boards
[/quote]Tru-oil is a polymerized linseed oil. The polymerized tung oil I used seemed to be more sturdy and less user friendly than Tru-oil. It was definitely thicker. It's often referred to as a penetrating oil but it's really just a surface finish.

I don't know if the linseed versus tung makes any difference but the particular stuff I used was different than tru-oil. That said I've finished necks and bodies with tru-oil and it works great and is the easiest finish I can think of.

[JD1]

I had to have the coating removed from my Pentabuzz as the fingerboard needed dressing. The guys at overwater did it for me. Have to say very little difference in tone. Certainly no less sustain / mwah - maybe a tiny bit of top end lost but hardly noticeable and easily compensated by the eq on the bass and / or amp.

[BassBod]

Having had a think about it...if I had a Wal fretless with an ebony board I'd leave it, but experiment with different strings. Coated boards for me are the way to get more of the Jaco sound...but that's not what Wals are about. I'd rather have fretless fun with black plastic strings or Thomastik flats - enjoy the wood!

[Shaggy]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' timestamp='1321487288' post='1439914']
Tru-oil is a polymerized linseed oil. The polymerized tung oil I used seemed to be more sturdy and less user friendly than Tru-oil. It was definitely thicker. It's often referred to as a penetrating oil but it's really just a surface finish.

I don't know if the linseed versus tung makes any difference but the particular stuff I used was different than tru-oil. That said I've finished necks and bodies with tru-oil and it works great and is the easiest finish I can think of.
[/quote]

Danish oil (from any B&Q etc) is a blend that contains Tung oil - whether polymerised or not I have no idea - and I use that on all my unlacquered boards, fretless and fretted, once a year or so. With regular use it seems to harden and seal / waterproof the outer "skin" of the wood without actually being a coating, especially good for those "sweaty hand" gigs

[Spoombung]

You can see the state of my Wal fingerboard here. Last time I had the neck re-sanded was back in '94 when Pete was there. Whenever I took it back for a service the first thing he would do was take off the strings and set about it with a sanding pad in front of me while I drank tea in the workshop. It's had 17 years of pounding with roundwound strings since (I'm still using the very same 17-year old strings and haven't got around to changing them). The ebony on this bass strikes me as quite a soft soft bit of wood. I have other basses with ebony fingerboards and they're much harder examples than the Wal and don't scratch up as much. Edited November 17, 2011 by Spoombung

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Shaggy' timestamp='1321558169' post='1440700'] Danish oil (from any B&Q etc) is a blend that contains Tung oil - whether polymerised or not I have no idea - and I use that on all my unlacquered boards, fretless and fretted, once a year or so. With regular use it seems to harden and seal / waterproof the outer "skin" of the wood without actually being a coating, especially good for those "sweaty hand" gigs [/quote]I believe it's not polymerized and that's why it will penetrate a bit. IME it can take a long time to dry but it does offer some moisture protection and darkens the wood color in a pleasing way. I think it can help stabilize a finished neck with an unfinished board as it will slow down moisture changes and keep some of the sweat out.