Bill Fitzmaurice Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='thodrik' post='1313849' date='Jul 23 2011, 09:35 AM']These threads really prove to me just how clueless I am to technical stuff, yet I still love reading them! I have two cabs bought when I was 22 based on the 'small speakers for highs, big speakers for lows' logic (2x10, 1x15).[/quote] The logic is sound. It was, and unfortunately remains, the implementation that was flawed. The hi-fi and PA (then cinema sound) guys knew back in the 1940s that you use big drivers for lows, smaller drivers for highs, along with a crossover so that they don't have overlapping coverage. The electric bass cab industry is still in the process of figuring that out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ficelles Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1314392' date='Jul 24 2011, 01:01 AM']The logic is sound. It was, and unfortunately remains, the implementation that was flawed. The hi-fi and PA (then cinema sound) guys knew back in the 1940s that you use big drivers for lows, smaller drivers for highs, along with a crossover so that they don't have overlapping coverage. The electric bass cab industry is still in the process of figuring that out. [/quote] Really? As to my recollection crossovers - particularly in the context of bi-amping with different cabs & drivers for different frequency ranges - have been in use in bass amplification for decades. ficelles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='ficelles' post='1314761' date='Jul 24 2011, 09:13 AM']Really? As to my recollection crossovers - particularly in the context of bi-amping with different cabs & drivers for different frequency ranges - have been in use in bass amplification for decades. ficelles[/quote]AFAIK the only cabs on the market today designed for bi-amping are some G-K, and those are woofer/tweeter cabs, not woofer/midrange, where bi-amping is most useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ficelles Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1314768' date='Jul 24 2011, 02:22 PM']AFAIK the only cabs on the market today designed for bi-amping are some G-K, and those are woofer/tweeter cabs, not woofer/midrange, where bi-amping is most useful.[/quote] Maybe it's fallen out of fashion... it was all the rage in the 80s! A few years back I used to run a Bass Pod Pro bi-amp out into a stereo power amp driving (seperately of course) a 1x15 and a 4x8, crossing over around 200Hz if memory serves me correctly. Worked pretty well, but not markedly better than my other rig which was a GK RB400IV into a single vertical 2x10 so in the end the simplicity of the single head/cab won out. ficelles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstuk Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I had the same experience bi-amping with my Warwick terminator and APM1000.. Was not worth the faffing around.... [quote name='ficelles' post='1314807' date='Jul 24 2011, 03:01 PM']Maybe it's fallen out of fashion... it was all the rage in the 80s! A few years back I used to run a Bass Pod Pro bi-amp out into a stereo power amp driving (seperately of course) a 1x15 and a 4x8, crossing over around 200Hz if memory serves me correctly. Worked pretty well, but not markedly better than my other rig which was a GK RB400IV into a single vertical 2x10 so in the end the simplicity of the single head/cab won out. ficelles[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethFlatlands Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Does this apply to guitar cabs too? Is there any benefit of stacking them vertically? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='ficelles' post='1314807' date='Jul 24 2011, 10:01 AM']Maybe it's fallen out of fashion... it was all the rage in the 80s! A few years back I used to run a ... a 1x15 and a 4x8,[/quote] Flawed. One doesn't need four 8s to provide the mids to keep up with one 15; one would be sufficient. [quote]Worked pretty well, but not markedly better than my other rig which was a GK RB400IV into a single vertical 2x10 so in the end the simplicity of the single head/cab won out[/quote]No doubt, as you were lugging about three extra eights, and I assume the eights were in a 2x2 box, which results in the dispersion being halved. [quote]Does this apply to guitar cabs too? Is there any benefit of stacking them vertically?[/quote]Much more so than bass, as their frequency range runs an octave higher. One should not even use a twelve inch driver for best results with guitar, as it will beam above 1.5kHz. Put two side by side and beaming starts around 800Hz, total insanity for a bandwidth that runs to 4 to 5kHz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethFlatlands Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 So a 2 * 12 guitar cab would benefit then? I'll give it a try next practice. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='GarethFlatlands' post='1314842' date='Jul 24 2011, 10:39 AM']So a 2 * 12 guitar cab would benefit then? I'll give it a try next practice. Thanks.[/quote]If Leo Fender had known anything about how speakers work he never would have put two drivers side by side. He didn't, so instead of making his amp chassis narrow to fit atop a vertical 2x12 he put the drivers side by side to visually match up with a wide chassis. The die was cast and remains to this day the intrinsically flawed standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethFlatlands Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I think my amp is too big to fit on top of my vertical cab but I can always run it off the floor. Make you wonder why most cab makers don't address the problem. Would separating, for example, a 4 by 10 internally into 2 sets of 2 by 10s make any difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Do you have a a problem hearing your rig..? can you hear the difference and do you care to the extent of accomodating a vertical stack.. You need to answer yes to at least one..and then you can start worrying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ficelles Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1314839' date='Jul 24 2011, 03:37 PM']Flawed. One doesn't need four 8s to provide the mids to keep up with one 15; one would be sufficient.[/quote] What a charming response Do you make many friends in here? Anyway it depends how you like your sound, and the whole point of bi-amping is to be able to better tailor the rig to your sound and to the room you are in. And you are forgetting that a consideration is visual - a 1x8 would look pretty silly. You need those 4 shiny cones to highlight just how fearsomely powerful your rig is. Btw my current "large" cab is a vertical 1x10 + 1x12, with a rear slot. Home-built of course. No doubt you can now tell me exactly how and why that's wrong, but it sounds great to my ears and is neither boomy nor weak in any particular frequency band (specific room acoustics excepting of course)... here's a picture of it in action. jayjay [attachment=85543:keynsham.jpg] Edited July 24, 2011 by ficelles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstuk Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Bill is this Bill... [url="http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/"]http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/[/url] He's a fellow home builder :-) [quote name='ficelles' post='1314929' date='Jul 24 2011, 05:40 PM']What a charming response Do you make many friends in here? Anyway it depends how you like your sound, and the whole point of bi-amping is to be able to better tailor the rig to your sound and to the room you are in. And you are forgetting that a consideration is visual - a 1x8 would look pretty silly. You need those 4 shiny cones to highlight just how fearsomely powerful your rig is. Btw my current "large" cab is a vertical 1x10 + 1x12, with a rear slot. Home-built of course. No doubt you can now tell me exactly how and why that's wrong, but it sounds great to my ears and is neither boomy nor weak in any particular band (specific room acoustics excepting of course)... here's a picture of it in action. jayjay [attachment=85543:keynsham.jpg][/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ficelles Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='markstuk' post='1314937' date='Jul 24 2011, 05:47 PM']Bill is this Bill... [url="http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/"]http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/[/url] He's a fellow home builder :-)[/quote] Torres do some good home build kits here in the UK... not quite as extensive a range as they are focused a little more on amp building, but apart from their standard cabs they will cut panels to order. ficelles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstuk Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I recently picked up a pre-built BFM Jack 210 on here for a fellow bass player.. It blew the socks off his current Ashdown ABM 1x15/4x8 setup.... [quote name='ficelles' post='1314940' date='Jul 24 2011, 05:54 PM']Torres do some good home build kits here in the UK... not quite as extensive a range as they are focused a little more on amp building, but apart from their standard cabs they will cut panels to order. ficelles[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ficelles Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 [quote name='markstuk' post='1314945' date='Jul 24 2011, 05:57 PM']It blew the socks off his current Ashdown ABM 1x15/4x8 setup....[/quote] I still have some nostalgia for that configuration, such sweet little cabs! Shame the appeal was more visual than sonic... Here they are with an ABM head as opposed to the Bass Pod Pro bi-amp setup. ficelles [attachment=85555:ashdown1.jpg] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='GarethFlatlands' post='1314854' date='Jul 24 2011, 10:52 AM']Make you wonder why most cab makers don't address the problem.[/quote] How many posts do you see about a new product where the poster says "[i]Wow! That looks great! I have to have one![/i] Manufacturers build what sells, what sells it what looks good, what looks good is what's familiar. Very few are willing to take a chance on introducing something that sounds better at the risk of it not selling for the lack of looking 'right'. [quote]Would separating, for example, a 4 by 10 internally into 2 sets of 2 by 10s make any difference?[/quote]Only if one vertical pair was low-pass filtered to prevent them from radiating mids above where the center to center distance of the horizontal spacing is over a wavelength, roughly 1kHz. Then you'd have the low frequency power of four drivers with the horizontal dispersion of a single ten. But that would add a few quid to the build cost, and so... Edited July 25, 2011 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1314839' date='Jul 24 2011, 03:37 PM']Much more so than bass, as their frequency range runs an octave higher. One should not even use a twelve inch driver for best results with guitar, as it will beam above 1.5kHz. Put two side by side and beaming starts around 800Hz, total insanity for a bandwidth that runs to 4 to 5kHz.[/quote] [url="http://www.blackstaramps.co.uk/products/ht-amps/ht-60h.html"]My Guitarist's Combo[/url] So something like the combo in the link I've provided is a bit off then? If it is I shan't tell my guitarist, he spent a fortune on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Your guitarist could do what I do with my bass combo & put it on it's side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 [quote name='xgsjx' post='1315435' date='Jul 25 2011, 09:39 AM']Your guitarist could do what I do with my bass combo & put it on it's side.[/quote] Yep, that's exactly what Barefaced Alex was recommending in his column a few months back if you have a 2x12 combo: put it on its side and on a stand (or chair). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 [quote name='Marvin' post='1315412' date='Jul 25 2011, 09:04 AM'][url="http://www.blackstaramps.co.uk/products/ht-amps/ht-60h.html"]My Guitarist's Combo[/url] So something like the combo in the link I've provided is a bit off then? If it is I shan't tell my guitarist, he spent a fortune on it. [/quote] He can just stick it on it's side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 You mean like this? [url="http://www.flickr.com/photos/xgsjx/4486424782/"][/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 [quote name='xgsjx' post='1315507' date='Jul 25 2011, 10:48 AM']You mean like this? [url="http://www.flickr.com/photos/xgsjx/4486424782/"][/url][/quote] I've been practising for the last hour and tipped my 2x10 combo on it's side. It sounds quite different. I'll try it at practice later this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 [quote name='EdwardHimself' post='1315485' date='Jul 25 2011, 10:33 AM']He can just stick it on it's side.[/quote] He'd probably be tempted to stick it somewhere else. You have to take Bill's contributions on here with a pinch of salt. One of his (many) regular lines is that Leo Fender didn't know how to design speakers and that guitar drivers should be stacked vertically. But go to his site and look at the guitar cab design that he is flogging for 15 dollars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 [quote name='stevie' post='1315794' date='Jul 25 2011, 02:58 PM']He'd probably be tempted to stick it somewhere else. You have to take Bill's contributions on here with a pinch of salt. One of his (many) regular lines is that Leo Fender didn't know how to design speakers and that guitar drivers should be stacked vertically. But go to his site and look at the guitar cab design that he is flogging for 15 dollars.[/quote] It has speakers crossfired and pointing upward. Not like Fenders, but retaining the width requirement to fit amplifiers. Fender ha the option of making amps that fit, and chose not to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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