Who Has A Di (or Equivalent On Their Board)

[DanOwens]

There's a thread about DIing the head or the bass (yes another one!) in General Bass Discussion and a member said:

[quote name='Lozz196' post='1101974' date='Jan 25 2011, 12:20 PM']Unless the bass has effects, or gain, in which case DI-ing the amp is necessary[/quote]

It made me think. I'm assuming the idea is that DIing a fuzz sounds horrible, and much more musical with a mid-cut and bass boost associated with amplifying. As such, I was thinking this:

I gig all over and I'm used to the sound man DIing before my amp if that's what they want. Therefore, should I include a DI box at the end of my chain that includes an amp simulator, with the aim of producing a less artificial sound? Do any of you do this for specifically this reason?

Also, if I was to run it like this, I'd want to run this in parallel so the amp emulation would go to front of house but not to my amp. What products are available to do such a job?

Many thanks,

Dan

Edited January 25, 2011 by DanOwens

[Low End Bee]

My Sansamp BDDI is always on my board in case the sound bod is having problems with the amp line out. It always works well and saves effing about for half an hour. I'll set the amp flat so stage monitoring is in the same sound ball park.

The sound people at places I play actually like it when the fuzz pedal is used for a couple of songs. Gives them something to do with a three piece band.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Low End Bee

[DanOwens]

The thing is, I use two separate pedal boards with 2 amps and pitch-to-midi setup (live DnB so 5 parallel channels of audio). Soundmen (and their subs) hate me.

Can the BDDI do a clean 'bypass' out as well as the main one, or would I be using another buffered splitter?

Dan

[cheddatom]

They're used to dealing with a DI straight from a bass, which as we all know needs EQing to sound good. I don't see why it'd be different coming from your board? They have an EQ strip instead of an amp sim.

As I said in the other thread, I used to DI but get the engineer to lo pass that and mic the cab(s). I think that'd work great for your situation?

[chris_b]

I send a post eq DI signal from the amp. But then I don't use pedals.

[51m0n]

DI from bass (before all effects) -> low pass

Mic each of your two amps

Only issue (nightmare!!!) is getting it all in phase. There is a mic stand product that bolts on to your cabs in a preset position. Something like [url="http://www.audixusa.com/docs/products/CabGrabber-XL.shtml"]this[/url] or [url="http://www.ampclamps.com/wtpro.html"]this[/url]
.
You could get a decent DI and a couple of mics of your own, and a couple of those, then you could have a good long play to get the signals all in phase and sounding fantastic.

Then when Mr Sound turns up hand him three labelled cables explaining what they are and that they are all in phase. If you get decent mics and DI I guarantee he will thank you for your effort, and enjoy mixing you a lot!

You would do well to warn him about any extreme low end, he may high pass (at say 45Hz) and limit those channels just to look after his kit.

Edited January 25, 2011 by 51m0n

[DanOwens]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='1102232' date='Jan 25 2011, 03:19 PM']I used to DI but get the engineer to lo pass that and mic the cab(s). I think that'd work great for your situation?[/quote]

That'd be ideal, yeah, but not always an option.

I'd figured something similar to you regarding the soundman EQing but wondered if anyone reduced variables by DIing at their end in parallel.

I guess not?

Dan

[51m0n]

[quote name='DanOwens' post='1102261' date='Jan 25 2011, 03:44 PM']That'd be ideal, yeah, but not always an option.

I'd figured something similar to you regarding the soundman EQing but wondered if anyone reduced variables by DIing at their end in parallel.

I guess not?

Dan[/quote]
Well thats a step on from what is being suggested, since you would need to mix it down and provide a mixed feed.

Personally I think that would tie that sound guys hands. Allthough if they are just riding a level and dont know your material that may be a good thing....

[DanOwens]

The amps are switched [i]between[/i] (one being guitar, the other bass) so phasing isn't an issue there. It is, however a big issue with my multichannel parallel system and Umph's currently trying to rectify that.

The guitar I always get mic'd, but the bass is usually just DI'd, hence the question about parallel amp simulation/DIing.

Also, our synth player brings his own DIs and hands them coloured cables. I think it's super professional.

Dan

[51m0n]

[quote name='DanOwens' post='1102281' date='Jan 25 2011, 03:58 PM']The amps are switched [i]between[/i] (one being guitar, the other bass) so phasing isn't an issue there. It is, however a big issue with my multichannel parallel system and Umph's currently trying to rectify that.

The guitar I always get mic'd, but the bass is usually just DI'd, hence the question about parallel amp simulation/DIing.

Also, our synth player brings his own DIs and hands them coloured cables. I think it's super professional.

Dan[/quote]

Sounds complex, before I would comment further can you draw a schematic of the signal flow so we all understand exactly what is going on.

If you have two sources that originate from the same thing, but go through a different path,m then you have the chance of a phase issue. If you are mixing a DI'ed bass, and one of two amps, then there is a potential phase issue for sure, and the phase issue may be different for each combination too!

[DanOwens]

All my parallel paths are very heavily effected and I try to maintain some EQ filtering to prevent phasing issues.

Here's the path:



My 'Parallax' is a custom 5-channel splitter/mixer that Umph has built and is rebuilding for me to deal with phasing issues (amongst others).

Some of the the signals such as 'Board 1' (which is OC2, Mammoth, CEB3, MF101, DHA VT2, DL4) and the M13 (which I've split here into two seperate twin-effect processors) can cause issues but the way I use the Adrenalinn (generally high-passed) and MicroKorg means I don't offer face phasing issues.

Dan

[cheddatom]

What a head f***. Why wouldn't you just have a whole seperate rig for guitar?

Sorry, that's not very helpful. Seeing as you're taking up a channel for the guitar mic, and then a channel for bass DI, maybe asking for an extra mic for bass would be pushing it, in which case a DI with some sort of amp sim that resembles the colouration of your bass rig is what you need.

Having said that, it sounds like your band is so big that one extra mic wouldn't hurt!

[EskimoBassist]

Having a decent pre/di like a Sansamp or the MXR M-80 around helps in many situations, so whether you end up needing using one live or not (which I assume you won't have to if you can always get your cab mic'd) they are really valuable swiss-army like tools to have around. Live or in the studio, next to my Tuner, my M-80 is my most important pedal.

[DanOwens]

So M80 or BDDI?

Can any amp sim/DI do parallel clean? I know the M80 can do parallel effected.

Dan

[EskimoBassist]

M80 can do parallel effected, which I've found to be quite useful. Personally I chose the M80 because of its' switchable distortion channel (which I prefered the sound of compared to the sansamp) and the mids control, which the standard Sansamp was lacking.

[DanOwens]

[quote name='EskimoBassist' post='1102681' date='Jan 25 2011, 08:19 PM']M80 can do parallel effected, which I've found to be quite useful. Personally I chose the M80 because of its' switchable distortion channel (which I prefered the sound of compared to the sansamp) and the mids control, which the standard Sansamp was lacking.[/quote]

Yeah, with this set up I really don't want all my mids hacked out of my signal.

And I share my guitar and bass effects on an improvised basis, so having separate rigs is just not really viable.

Dan

[51m0n]

Short of building in a phase rotation/delay into each channel just before the summing point I dont think you can do much to avoid the dreaded phase issues doing all sorts of nasty comb filtering on that set up

If you did manage to get it modded like that, then you can easily rid yourself of phase issues (or minimise them), you just put pink noise through it and add two channels and watch the level whilst turning the phase, when its at its loudest point you are in phase. Repeat for all channel combinations. Of course switching fx in a and out will change the phase slightly, but it shouldnt be too bad...

[TomTFS]

I don't really see where the problem with phasing is likely to occur, unless you're running the boards in parallel with dry signal, in which case it should be effected sound anyway and shouldn't be any more noticeable than using a normal clean blend pedal.
The only other place will be the relationship of the bass DI and Mic, which is something the soundguy has to deal with no matter what the rig.


The M80 is probably you best bet as it leave the signal pretty clean unless you turn the distortion on, whereas the BDDI definitely imparts its own tone even if you set it all flat.
If you're going to get your own mic, get two Sennheiser e906's (NOT 609s or 606s) as they sound awesome on both guitar and bass cabs.

[DanOwens]

Thanks guys.

Umph is currently trying to sort out a phasing issue he has noticed, but my thinking was similar to Tom's in that if I use sounds that are radically different then comb filtering shouldn't become too much of an issue.

I guess I need some more Hi-Pass effects and to lay off the subs!

[TomTFS]

[quote name='DanOwens' post='1103417' date='Jan 26 2011, 11:58 AM']I guess I need some more Hi-Pass effects and to lay off the subs![/quote]


Nooooo! Keep them, use them all!

[lemmywinks]

[quote name='EskimoBassist' post='1102681' date='Jan 25 2011, 08:19 PM']M80 can do parallel effected, which I've found to be quite useful. Personally I chose the M80 because of its' switchable distortion channel (which I prefered the sound of compared to the sansamp) and the mids control, which the standard Sansamp was lacking.[/quote]


What i like about the M80 is the seperate switches for distortion "channel" and the actual OD itself, the pedal does 3 jobs for me - boost switch, OD and DI.

I have it at the end of a very small signal chain (Tuner>Mastotron>M80) so it get my full signal going to the FOH. If my amp fails then no worries, still have bass!

[EskimoBassist]

Couldn't have put it better myself!

[DanOwens]

So the M80 is quite clean then?

I don't mind it colouring my tone a bit (as long as I like the colour) but I don't want to add and distortion / grit / warmth (or any synonym for clipping you can think of)

[EskimoBassist]

The MXR is totally clean without the distortion circuit engaged, and with it on you can go from light break up to full on raging distortion. I use mine as always on, with a nice sound set up on the preamp, and engage the distortion channel for a little classic drive on a few songs which call for it.

[paul_5]

+1,
I've just got an MXR80, and it's sooooo clean. I tried it through the big Genelecs at work today, and it's studio quiet, no background at all - very impressive. The 'distortion' is closer to 'fuzz' though; not the 'drive' that I associate with the Sansamp, but it's switchable and that for me means that it's a more versatile piece of kit. Being able to power it with phantom power from a board is a bonus too.