The Song Writing Thread

[Low End Bee]

What it says on the tin really.

Hints and tips. Success and Failure. Verses, choruses, middle 8's and lyrics. How, why, what, when and where.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Low End Bee' post='1004880' date='Oct 29 2010, 10:38 AM']What it says on the tin really.

Hints and tips. Success and Failure. Verses, choruses, middle 8's and lyrics. How, why, what, when and where.[/quote]
Anything I say won't be taken seriously as I don't read or write music

[skej21]

These guys will help; But be warned... you may feel a LITTLE bit robbed

Edited October 29, 2010 by skej21

[Low End Bee]

[quote name='silddx' post='1004881' date='Oct 29 2010, 10:41 AM']Anything I say won't be taken seriously as I don't read or write music [/quote]

Me109 aces are welcome here.

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='Low End Bee' post='1004880' date='Oct 29 2010, 10:38 AM']What it says on the tin really.

Verses, choruses, middle 8's[/quote]

Dont forget intros , outros and 20 minute long drum solos - ermm perhaps I should stop listening to so much Rush !

Good on you for starting this - hope I have something meaningful to contribute !

[xilddx]

[quote name='Low End Bee' post='1004888' date='Oct 29 2010, 10:44 AM']Me109 aces are welcome here.[/quote]

[Low End Bee]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='1004890' date='Oct 29 2010, 10:48 AM']perhaps I should stop listening to so much Rush ![/quote]

This is an excellent way to start.

[JoshJ]

[quote name='skej21' post='1004884' date='Oct 29 2010, 10:43 AM']These guys will help; But be warned... you may feel a LITTLE bit robbed

(video)[/quote]
Well, I've had a productive morning... I've just learned about 50 songs

[Wil]

I'm pretty awful at it. Occasionally I'll sit and come up with a nice chord progression and vocal line but I struggle with lyrics. As a result, most of the music I do write is pretty sparse at the best of times. The last song I wrote and recorded was a simple, junkyard blues number where I was more focused on creating an atmosphere than creating anything particularly groundbreaking musically. Ended up banging on pots and pans for drums but never did get around to recording the rain on my garage roof for more ambience... You can listen to it here if you like: [url="http://www.myspace.com/ebolamonkey11"]Myspace link[/url]

A good friend of mine can churn out brilliant chord progressions and vocal lines all day long. I have no idea how he does it, it just comes naturally to him. Good news for me as he does all the writing in our band!

[silverfoxnik]

Roger Cook, who co-wrote 'I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing', writes all of his songs on a 4 string ukelele...maybe that's the way to go?

[Cat Burrito]

Every time I come up with a nice idea or melody, my songwriter has a much better example so I tend to sit back and concentrate on making [b]my[/b] parts as best I can as my contribution. I find bass a virtually impossible instrument to write on too*. I wish I was better in this area but I constantly work with good Rhythm guitarists who seem to come up with stuff naturally. I don't know why but I wrote my best stuff when I was 18 / 19. I'm nearly 38 now.

*Nothing against bass, Lead guitarists tend to be weaker with song ideas as do singers who can't play an instrument.

[Wil]

I think an interesting chordal foundation (be that rhythm guitar, keys or whatever) and a vocal line are the most important things in writing a good pop song. Other genres may vary, but the vocal melody needs to catch your ear, as it's the thing 99% of punters will pick up on. It's hard to do it right consistantly and keep it fresh.

[xilddx]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='1004921' date='Oct 29 2010, 11:19 AM']Roger Cook, who co-wrote 'I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing', writes all of his songs on a 4 string ukelele...maybe that's the way to go?[/quote]
I did that a couple of years ago! It really changes your approach and it is very refreshing.

[Low End Bee]

A couple of thoughts.

You can never have too many lyrics ready. I had a terrible writers block a while back that Old Git got me over. Now I'm churning them out again with the help of some disciplines suggested and one secret one that I've come up with all on my tod.

Don't be precious or stubborn about your songs. Of the last 25 odd I've written since this band started in August 09 only 2 have ended up sounding more or less how the original demo did. There's at least half that didn't pass the quality check at all. Some are verses from one choruses from another with lyrics altered beyond recognition fron the original, etc.

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='silddx' post='1004943' date='Oct 29 2010, 11:35 AM']I did that a couple of years ago! It really changes your approach and it is very refreshing.[/quote]

I tired to write a thread about this a while ago but no one wanted to play !

The one thing I have found is that it you use a different instrument ,( bass, guitar keyboard whatever ) as your starting point then it has a massive result on the end result. So I suppose if you know what sound you want you would go to that instrument first Unfortunately everything I write on bass ends up sounding like The Cure , I hate The Cure

[MIJ-VI]

D.I.Y. OR DIE
Written by John Gary Bovay ©1995

(The alleged saxophone alludes to the vocal melody.)
[url="http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=6600845&q=hi&newref=1"]http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_pl...hi&newref=1[/url]

VERSE 1:
Those days of punching a clock.
And working for someone else.
Have been replaced by a pressing need.
To learn how to spell..

CHORUS A:
D.I.Y. or Die..., D.I.Y. or Die...
You gotta try, try and try...
D.I.Y. or Die.

VERSE 2:
Ask yourself what are the things you know how to do.
Then go with the one, that you can get into!

CHORUS A:
D.I.Y. or Die..., D.I.Y. or Die...
You gotta try, try and try...
D.I.Y. or Die.

VERSE 3:
The whole world digs a cash register's ring.
Learn how to make or do something.
And hear them sing!

CHORUS A:
D.I.Y. or Die..., D.I.Y. or Die...
You gotta try, try and try...
D.I.Y. or Die.

BREAK A

VERSE 4:
The welfare state is comin' to a rapid end.
And the only-real-thing-left-upon,
which-you-can-depend, is:

CHORUS A:
D.I.Y. or Die..., D.I.Y. or Die...
You gotta try, try and try...
D.I.Y. or Die.

VERSE 5:
Instead of sitting on your ass.
And begging out on the street.
You'd better show some class.
And learn to stand on your own two feet.

CHORUS C
(Because it's) D.I.Y. or Die..., D.I.Y. or Die...
You gotta try, try and try...
D.I.Y. or Die.

VERSE 6:
God helps those who help themselves.
I swear that it's true.
If you try to help yourself.
Then God will try to help you.

CHORUS C:
D.I.Y. or Die..., (Yeah...) D.I.Y. or Die...
You gotta try, try and try...
D.I.Y. or Die....

BREAK B

VERSE 7:
If you can't even bo-ther gettin' up and outta bed.
Then-you-might-as-well-just-lay-there.
'Cause-you're-already-dead!

CHORUS A:
D.I.Y. or Die..., D.I.Y. or Die...
You gotta try, try and try...
D.I.Y. or Die.

VERSE 8:
Those days of punching that clock.
And working for someone else.
Have been replaced by a pres-sing need.
To learn how to SELL!

CHORUS D:
D.I.Y. or Die..., D.I.Y. or Die...
You gotta try, try and try......

REFRAIN:
D.I.Y. or Die...
D.I.Y. or Die...
D.I.Y. or Die...
D.I.Y. or DIE!

ENDING

END.

Edited October 29, 2010 by MIJ-VI

[Low End Bee]

Weekend update.

37 sheets of paper in bin. No new lyrics.
A nice intro/outro/bridge thing sorted though. Plus maybe a verse to go with it.

I'm finding themes for the lyrics hard at the moment. Once I get one I usually have little trouble bashing words out.
I can't do 'angry with the world' songs. Because I'm not. I leave love songs to the other writer. He's better at them. I like 'story' songs and observational songs. I've obviously not been observing enough recently.
Maybe I should have a crack at something with wizards and swords and stuff?

I'll get me cape.

[Bilbo]

I guess writing jazz tunes is easier in that it doesn't often involve lyrics

I think one thing that people forget to consider where songwriting/composing is concerned is the value of practising the skills and not simply doing it.

Some of the things I have done to this end include:

taking a short orchestral piece off a film soundtrack (say 1.12 long) and 'recreating' it, texturally, using different melodies/harmony.

Taking a chord sequence off an existing song and putting it into Band In A Box and writing a new melody. Or adding a new melody to a Jamey Aebersold backing track.

Writing lyrics to an instrumental jazz tune.

Reharmonising/rearranging a well known theme - I recently tried putting 'To Be A Pilgrim' into a minor key, or playing Lullaby of Birdland in 5:4 (I ended up using the chords of the 5:4 version with a new melody to create a whole new piece).

I am sure you get the idea. Not everything you write has to be the greatest song in the world. Sometimes you can learn a lot from writing a short piece with no beginning or end and no ultimate purpose other than as a learning exercise.

[BigRedX]

Personally I have no idea where the songs I write come from. Maybe I just pluck the ideas out of thin air? All I know is one minute I'll be doing some pointless noodling the next I'll have something that has the potential to be turned into a great song. It's all about spotting where one turns into the other.

I tend to do all my best work in collaboration with another musician where we can quickly bounce ideas off each other. When this is working well we can go from nothing to a finished song with the full arrangement worked out in under and hour!

[Low End Bee]

I seem to be fine with the music. Lyrics are the hard bit. They will also dictate the mood of the song so they've got to fit together.

Just finding stuff to write about is giving me the hump at the moment.

[JTUK]

I leave the bulk of it to the singer because he is very good at it. He just wants me to embellish the bass line taking from his reference or overall feel and guidance. However, I will suggest a few chord changes/substitutions and sequences if they come to kind and I can do intros and endings.
It is mostly about empathy though and then you dig out the box of cliches...and make then less cliched and more subtle..!!

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

If the song you're writing is a bit boring, put in a key change after the second or third chorus. - aka 'the truck driver's gear shift' in country music.

Also real life stories from certain areas of the US are a good source of ideas for songs. eg There's got to be a country song in [url="http://cerebraldiva.blogspot.com/2010/11/woman-assaults-two-men-who-refuse-to.html"]this story[/url]. (NSFW!)

Edited November 8, 2010 by Jean-Luc Pickguard

[Low End Bee]

A new song is born. I found by chance a very interesting local story that happened 50 years ago on the net on Tuesday night. I took lots of notes down as I researched it. I took these notes to work and wrote all the lyrics out at lunch and emailed them to the guitarist who was working from home. He came up with a framework of music to work on.
Our drummer got stuck in the student demo traffic and couldn't make rehearsal so we spent the time arranging the song and editing the lyrics to scan. It was a lot of fun and hopefully we've got a terrific song once the drummer adds his bit. It would be nice to spend more time creativley writing like this. Sometimes we skip over some of the musical stuff as we don't want to bore the drummer. It's a shame I find the bass line I've written so difficult to play! The song's called 7 Foot Drop.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Low End Bee