Phil Starr

You have 4 2x15's? I recently bought some carpet covered PA speakers. filthy but they cleaned up OK with a stiff brush and a vacuum cleaner. Getting carpet off is awful, I doubt whether it would be economic to do this unless you really love those cabs.

When you say shabby do you mean that they won't clean up well or are they torn. You can do wonders with vinyl with a can of WD40. Spray it on like a generous squirt of furniture polish and buff off with a clean cloth. repeat until clean and shiny. You can stick down little tears with PVA glue. If it curls then use a hair dryer to warm the vinyl and it will soften. You can actually iron down the vinyl if you coat both cab and vinyl with PVA and let it dry, but be warned the temperature at which the vinyl melts and the glue goes tacky are quite close. Don't melt the vinyl. Finally you end up with a few join lines where the restuck viny joins the other side of the tear. Disguise this with a black marker pen. Have fun.

I'd also recommend you get a quote for a recone, just forgot to add it.

I got my stand from Lidl, Sturdy and it folds. I am such a cheapskate.

The short answer is that it is more complex than that. If the cab is sealed then there is a good chance that the speaker will work ok in your cab. Too small a cab will raise the resonant frequency,cut deeps and create a frequency hump at the bottom end. Too big and the cab will start to roll off earlier with a weakened but extended bass but a fairly wide range of volumes will work. Big and small depend upon the speaker you choose. If the cab is a reflex(ported) cab then the speaker is tuned to the cab and just plonking a speaker in is a bit like fitting new strings and not adjusting the tuning pegs. People here will tell you what to do if you need to re tune though. If the tuning ports are round tubes it is often a relatively easy mod if the port is just a hole in the cab or worse a deep wooden channel it could be tricky. I don't know of a specialised 18" bass speaker but if you don't like the sound of an 18 then what are you doing with this cab. Fane also do 18's, Check out Blue Aran or the Fane website.

I think we are coming to the end of an era. No-one builds a computer at home in the sense of soldering components onto a circuit board and computer repair is a matter of unplugging a card and plugging a new one in. I doubt that a digital amp will be any different from a computer or an iPod in this. The other problem is that with nearly all electronics manufacture moving overseas it is getting harder to locate components. On the plus side I think that eventually digital amps are going to be a lot more reliable than the analogue stuff we are used to and these amps are going to offer ever more facilities and power at lower prices. If the copper in the transformer is worth more than the cost of a new amp then no-one is going to opt to repair. That won't stop me from trying to repair the first digital amp I break however. I must get up into the loft and start to repair those Betamax's.....

I find Behringer the most frustrating company in music. They almost get it right and somehow end up missing the point. The EP1500 is a little gem. We've had one for years, does what it says on the tin and looks to be well made. They haven't spent a lot on designing the Nuke. It is just one of their PA amps in a case with their bass pre-amp. They've just combined two products they already make into a single case. Some of their design are quite good, when they work but they are let down with stupid cost cutting, crappy connectors a handful of cheap components in an otherwise good product combined with the same couldn't care less attitude to after sales that Apple show to their customers. Don't their people read the press they get on the internet. It would cost them pence to improve the quality of their critical components and they would still have huge economies of scale. 5% on their production costs would probably improve their reliability fourfold and their sales by 50%. If their stuff was 20% more expensive but was reliable and repairable we would all be looking at it seriously, it would still be cheap. I'd love it if there was someone making cheap reliable exotic gear. I can't afford the real thing. Behringer could potentially solve all my problems, but it doesn't.

I've used an EP1500 for PA for years without problems. I've gone on to buy an EP2500 because of my so far good experience. Their PA stuff seems a lot better than their instrument amps. The EPX range are newish and use a digital power supply (which should be better) but some of their digital stuff has had reliability problems. I've no idea whether or not it applies to these amps. Don't forget though that if you are using this as a bass amp you will still need a decent pre-amp and speakers so the saving may be less than you expect. The pursuit of kilowatts isn't the best way of getting the best sound. If you want this amp for PA then it is worth considering.

The problem we all have is that we don't really have a great vocabulary for describing sounds. To me flat means that the output is the same across the frequency range but to another it could mean 'neutral sounding'. I doubt very much whether the output of the guitar is flat in a technical sense of equal output across the frequency range especially as the inductance of the coil kicks in at higher frequencies.with reinforcement from floors walls and ceilings The bottom end won't be flat in a real room either. A truly flat speaker would sound rather boomy in most rooms. The best way to hear what your bass really sounds like 'flat' is to plug it straight into a mixing desk and out to a decent pair of headphones and the next best is to listen to it DI'd. If this is the sound you like then why not go for a couple of lightweight active PA speakers?

[quote name='bassman2790' post='1084654' date='Jan 10 2011, 07:10 PM']I originally started out with one 4x10 which was more than adequate then added the second one to give me more headroom (never had the master above 2). Now, as I'm DI'd into the desk, I only need my backline to be heard primarily by me. The drummer and guitarist get a feed through their monitors. I'm thinking a 2x10 on a stand, bringing it to ear level will probably do the trick.[/quote] sounds like a plan.

[quote name='TimR' post='1083564' date='Jan 9 2011, 08:38 PM']The sensitivity of the 4x10 is 97dB the 2x10 is 95dB.[/quote] If these figures are correct then in your position I would play a gig with just one 4x10, which won't cost you anything to try. You will be 7dB (ish) down overall. I think what you will notice more is that with a lower stack you will no longer have speakers at ear level. I predict it will be loud enough, but that will depend on many things including your personal preferences. If you are worried then keep the other 4x10 in the car ready for the second half. If it does turn out to be OK then you can follow the 2x10 option. There are more sensitive 2x10's than the Peaveys out there.

Don't forget that the impedance and DC resistance are not the same. As well as the resistance of the wire itself there is the inductance of the coil to add on. Inductance is frequency dependent and so the impedance of the coil is a 'nominal' figure anyway.

the drop from 450 to 170 is 2.5dB and from 300 to 170 is 1.76dB. you will also lose some efficiency when you reduce the number of cones you are using. Using multiple cones causes all sorts of problems as the cones both reinforce and cancel the sounds each creates depending upon the phase of the sound. Ignore that last bit if it is gobbledegook. It means that the sound is beamed and what you hear depends upon where you stand. 1dB is just noticeable, 3dB is noticeable but not dramatic, 10dB is what you need to be twice as loud. I'd guess that you'll be about 6dB down. Noticeable but not half the volume. 170W through a decent 2x10 ought to be enough for most situations but it does depend upon the tone you use. If you use a mid balanced tone it will be fine, if you use a lot of deep bass then it won't and you'll need more headroom. The audience will probably hear you but you may have trouble hearing yourself. Place the 2x10 on its side so one speaker is on top, which gives the best dispersion, and point it at your ears if you can.

There are amps which more or less give double the power into 4ohms and even ones which nearly double again into 2ohms but the only amps I've seen that pull this trick off are hi fi amps. All of the designs I have seen that achieve this trick have regulated power supplies. The biggest problem is that there are several impedances in the chain, power supply, amplifier and speaker leads. Under high power all the components heat up and their resistance/impedance will rise. You'll burn your fingers on a mains transformer that has been running flat out for any time. I would think that the main restriction is the size of the mains transformer and of course, its cost. To reduce its impedance you'd have to increase the size of the windings considerably and you'd have to do something about the heat dissipation as the surface area/volume ratio decreases with size. In the end you reach a point where the cost of the power supply is exceeding the rest of the amp by a considerable amount and the supply starts to get too heavy to lift so as a designer you start to compromise. In any case if you are using the amp to amplify music rather than test signals you are more interested in the amps short term output than its continuous power. so, yes looking to see how an amp handles into 4 or 2ohms is an indication of how well it handles high currents and the quality of its power supply only giving 70% extra into 4 ohms doesn't mean the amplifier is somehow crap. I can't imagine there are these sorts of discussions on the guitar forums somehow.

I too think it is the speaker protection. You shouldn't see it round the speaker though as it should be airtight and hence light tight, probably. Anyway one thing that will cause the tweeter to overload is distortion, particularly clipping. Distortion is mainly high frequency energy and your tweeter may be getting a lot more power than it is designed for. The bulb is protecting it but you might like to think about turning down any treble boost or any distortion effects.

Behringer stuff doesn't have a good reputation but we have been using an EP1500 for years without problems and as a result I've just bought an EP2500. Their digital stuff seems to have problems because of poor connectors and their instrument amps don't sound too good but some of their PA seems ok. the biggest problem is their after sales which is on a par with Apple.

Your amp should be safe enough but I too don't really understand the thinking behind running silently. On-stage you need to hear yourself and when recording you need a good clean feed which you can more easily shape after you've recorded, unless you want the sound coming from the amp, in which case you need to mic' up the speakers. One problem with dummy loads is you can't hear if anything goes wrong, normally if you get any strange noises or high levels of overload distortion from an amp you turn it off/down pronto to save damage. you won't be able to do this if you can't hear.

If the speakers are out of phase the bass from one cancels the other and you only get a tinny bass light sound. The actual extent of this depends upon the distance between the speakers. I don't think this is the problem you are describing. Moving from 100W to 300W is less than a 5dB increase. If you have speakers that have peaks of +/- 3dB then some bits of the fender may be louder than some bits of the Ashdown. In addition our ears are more sensitive to some frequencies by as much as 20dB. If the Ashdowns are bassier they may well sound quiter and less punchy. In all rooms some frequencies resonate and others don't. Bottom A drives me mad in my current room for example. This means some amps suit some rooms more than others. In addition amps don't radiate all frequencies in all directions equally well. There are all sorts of lobing and directionality problems and these are much worse with multiple drivers. Think of the speakers radiating sound like a torch with a cracked lens and you get the idea. Any of these could be causing the things you describe. I'd test an amp in several rooms before I decided it was poor or not.

I remember the speakers well from the very early 1970's. At the time the choice of speakers was very limited and the Goodmans were my favourite at the time. They were more reliable than Celestions and Fanes and had a reasonably flat response. In those days horn drivers were either unreliable or very expensive so most speakers were expected to be full range and many had a little cone stuck to the bigger speaker. I used the 15" version a lot in PA designs. Speakers of this vintage failed often because the glues holding the voice coil together often melted. I wouldn't put too much power through these. You might find someone who is restoring some vintage gear who would love to get hold of these if they are working.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1068119' date='Dec 23 2010, 07:16 PM']Power stage coloration is minimal, especially when compared to that of the speaker. If coloration is what you're trying to capture you need a mic.[/quote] [quote name='umph' post='1068325' date='Dec 23 2010, 10:40 PM']i disagree, the coloration of power valves is worth capturing, the added harmonics and compression of power pentodes/tetrodes is very different to that of the smaller triodes and that coupled with the limited response and added distortion of the power transformer gives a notable difference that gives even more noticible as you crank it, especially with an amp like the one the OP is using.[/quote] I too love a tech war but the truth is that both are completely right. Bill's method will give you a post fade post tone shaped output. A DI box in the speaker line gives you the shaping caused by the output stages, which is the bit of the valve sound we still can't quite capture any other way but the speaker introduces a whole other level of distortion/sound shaping. It all depends upon what you want: clean and you DI before the amp, clean but with you retaining tone shaping, go for the BFM method, DI off the speaker lead and you get the valve distortion and tone settings. Mic' up and you get total control at the expense of a lot more fiddling and the expense of a mic. I'd go for the DI box personally, just because I don't like the idea of fiddling too much with classic old amps and I'm happy for an engineer to fiddle with my sound. That's just personal preference though.

[quote name='bumnote' post='1069399' date='Dec 25 2010, 11:49 PM']could you explain a bit further? i know the moving part of the speaker isnt actually 15" but if the area of a circle is pi r squared then my maths makes a 15 at 176 sq ins and 2 10s at 157. Ta[/quote] Oops, too much Christmas spirit, I punched the wrong keys on my calculator. The essential point is, it is area not diameter, but you have this. Actually it is not area but displacement and BFM has given you the figures for this as well. As well as their size and weight 8x10's and all multiple driver speakers have problems with their radiation patterns and cancellation of certain frequencies. Players tend to either love the sound or hate it. They don't usually lack bass or sound output as everyone is saying but the sound is quite coloured and a bit 'retro'. It's like marmite, you'll love it or hate it but it has a taste you can't mistake and it isn't nice mixed with anything else!

first why do it? Most 4x10's will be loud enough for anything and an 8x10 will be loud enough for anything. The 15 will struggle to be heard so any tonal differences will be marginal. If you like the sound of the 8x and don't mind transporting it then go for it. If you don't like the sound then you won't change it by adding other speakers. By the way it is the area that determines sound output ,all else being equal, so one 15 = about 3.5 10's

[quote name='fryer' post='1039712' date='Nov 28 2010, 10:53 AM']Hi, I would like some help please. I have a TC RH450 head - 450 w at 4 ohm. I have bought two purple chili 1 x 12 cabs, which have Celestion 12" 300 w speakers. I want to upgrade these and was thinking of putting an Eminence 3012 LF, 450 w, in one cab, and a Beyma 605 ND, 125 w, in the other. They are both 8 ohms. I would seal the ports on the Beyma cab. The RH only has one speaker outlet, so you wire to one cab, then to the other. So if I took the output to the Eminence cab first, would I need a crossover or something to restrict the wattage to the Beyma ? Richard[/quote] You might be better off in the amps and cabinets forum, I'm not sure Alex has the time nowadays to answer a lot of questions other than those about Barefaced. there are some fairly experienced people there who won't answer on Alex's forum. Whether you want to re-post or continue here you need to give a lot more information before anyone can really help. What are the Celestion drivers you currently have in the cabs and what don't you like about their sound? What sound are you trying to achieve? Why have you chosen these two drivers, are they something you already have or do you still have to go out and purchase them? Are you up for selling the PC's and building your own cabs? If a cab has been optimised for a particular driver it is almost never optimum for another, so unless the cab is a real dog it is unlikely that you can upgrade the sound with a simple swap. Using two different drivers is 'interesting' rather than wrong as a few people in these forums will sometimes tell you, IMO. As well as the technical problems you always get with multiple drivers you get a subjective rounding down effect where the characters of both speakers seem to disappear a little leaving a more neutral tone. You might be able to achieve what you want by replacing one speaker only. Over to you. Are you open to other suggested drivers?

probably safer than bashing away at components (though I do this too) is to use a can of freezer spray, which will also help to locate any faulty components.

As Mr Foxen has pointed out the problem is with the 2x10 which potentially get 500W. However you can't strictly speaqking compare amp watts with speaker watts as they are rated differently. Amp ratings are the maximum they can reach without distorting. They are a peak rating, If you have a VU meter on your amp you'll see the signal going up and down. A thousand watt amp only produces a thousand watts for a fraction of a second at a time on the peaks. Speaker ratings are basically about heating 500W through a speaker coil has almost the same effect as 500W through an electric heater. Speaker coils get really hot and will potentially melt the glue holding them together or even the wires themselves and this is why they fail mainly. The rating is given by passing that much power in the form of filtered noise ,meant to simulate music, through the speakers for several hours. If none of the samples fail that is the rating. When you play bass though you don't play flat out all the time. You play loud bits and quiet bits and sometimes nothing at all. Even if you are hitting the strings really hard with a pick and pumping out a non stop 8-beat the front of each note may hit the amps peak but it will decay quickly and at the end of the song you will stop and the speaker starts to cool. If you play without compression you might have a dynamic range of 40dB and this means your average level could be 20dB less than your peak. This is a ratio of 100:1 so the thousand watt amp could be only producing an average of 10W! So long as you keep out of distortion and don't use a limiter/compressor you'll be way away from the limits of your speakers. If you look at the Eminence website you'll see that as well as the RMS (EIA) rating of their speakers they also give a program rating of double this and a 6dB 'crest' rating for short term peaks. There is one more hazard for a speaker though. The power rating is for general 'music' and you play bass which has a lot more low frequency. The speakr can only move so much before it hits the grille or the back of the magnet or moves out of the magnetic gap and this can definitely damage the speaker depending on it's exact design. Ported cabs are particularly prone to this sort of over-excursion as are certain speakers. There are 200W speakers that cannot handle 50W in the wrong cab at low enough frequencies. Really it is almost always worth filtering out very low and subsonic bass. If you use an over powered amp with a five string, no bass filter and use a lot of bass boost on your eQ then all bets are off. So. the answer is that if you avoid distortion, keep the volume down and either filter the subsonics and or go easy on the EQ then there should be no problems and by over-powering you should get a great clean sound. If not you may have to recone at some stage.