JTUK

I have to say that even a good band can overplay their hand. Unless the band is very very good, I wouldn't want to see the same band back there within a few weeks. This is why and how bands get stale in the eyes of an audience...but by the same token, I wouldn't use that as an arbiter too much anyway.. But certainly bands play anywhere and everwhere and then wonder why they don't get the same crowd levels as before. I can think of very few bands around here that you want to see twice a month for example.. very very few, in fact, not one springs to mind, but then I'm not a typical punter either. Taking the money just because is there is a pretty tacky stance as well... so if that was your goal, I'd doubt the band would be considerate to what thye audeince wants anyway... as long as they get the money..??

Yep..5 weeks for a regular gig is too soon... I'd want 2 weeks minimum between the same town and Breweries who pay the ultimate cost of bands can and try to dictate how often you play... but it is often the Landlords that will stop very good draw bands from playing too often in rival pubs and effecting their business rather then the Brewery. The Brewery just has to be seen they support the LL... especially if that Brewery supports/supplies 99% of the town's pubs..

[quote name='Master of none' timestamp='1440767857' post='2853692'] Understood! Although if all the good bands in an area were MU members, and charged MU rates, then the venues would have to pay up, or settle for inferior bands. I appreciate that's not very likely. But lots of people here are saying what they consider to be fair pay for a night's work. I'm just surprised that [i]nobody[/i] has mentioned what the MU consider to be a fair rate. [/quote] You have to make sure your market can pay close to what you both decide is feasible. Of course, the argument against free bands could also be extended to non MU rate bands... but you have to find a level that works within your market. That is why if the gig is a fun good gig, I'll do it cheaper... It depends where you set your 'how picky' bar...

[quote name='gapiro' timestamp='1440765292' post='2853644'] I'm in the rich cambridge area, but the Ska Band [i][b][u]will not[/u][/b][/i] go out for under £400. Pub or anything. (6 members, £40 goes to PA pot, so £60/head minimum) Sunday we;re doing a 45 minute set for £400..... We're busy and have a gig or two every week. [/quote] Ska bands around here are the best pulls... consistantly. Not many bands get into the £500 bracket but most of the ones that could are Ska bands.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440758253' post='2853532'] The fuel is a good point. Our guitarist has a fully expensed company car. His trips to gigs cost him nothing extra to leaving his car in the drive. I only pay fuel for my car so at 60mpg it's costing me less than 10p a mile. Our singer drives an old Merc and at less than 20mpg he complained that we didn't get paid enough at one gig to cover his fuel. My feelings are mixed on that one. Especially as I offered to give him a lift and he turned it down because he didn't want to be there loading gear an hour before he needed to be there. (Subsequently turned up 10mins to start and complained how much it had cost him and that there was nowhere to park - but that's another thread ) [/quote] and that is where my patience would run very thin... I'm happy for an equal split...IF all things are equal, but in the real world, they generally aren't. If we use a truly exceptional drummer..and sometimes we do... we might have to pay for the 'priveledge' and pay petrol and exes over and above but we make a point that he will not earn more over a year per gig that the rest of us core members, That means for big payers, he is still on a wage...but you can see how it can get tricky etc etc .. Basically we pay him what he asks and can afford with in reasonable limits...but that is the price you get for a 'world class player'..

[quote name='Iain' timestamp='1440746401' post='2853407'] We've been having this discussion in one of my bands - trying to set a general rate to avoid the singer signing us up for no money gigs*. All of us have jobs so we're not in it for the money but fuel, PA and general upkeep of the tools cost us - we've settled on £250 if there's a house PA and £100 on top for use of ours, doesn't seem a lot but we realised quickly that small pubs can't stretch to that. If you're in a city you might find more places that can but the more rural you are the tougher it is. If we thought our local circuit could make £400 viable for them we'd be more than happy to do that! Towns around us seem to think £150 and a free pint each is their upper limit... * played a biker summer party last weekend. Someone from one of the invited MCCs asked us if we would do a party for them in Feb and asked the singer how much. £150 he trots out. As the gig is the on the north side of Manchester it's a decent trip for me - £150/5 = £30 each, most of that will go on fuel for me... Grrr [/quote] You need to agree rates ASAP... Our lowist limit is £50 a head for a local gig..ie, under 30 mins drive. After that we start putting on £10 per head fuel... so we are up to £300. The market rate is £200-£300 for the area... so the goal is to hit £300 and beyond. A friend on mines band pack out pubs and should be charging £350 min... but getting a pub to commit to that is hard. I just suggest they go in £250 or £300 and say to prove we are worth the difference add £100 if the bar does great. I think this is playing fair with the pub market... £250 is the rate that any band can get.. but some bands are better and some bands just pull way more. However you slice it...the pub HAS to make decent money to pay out decent money. But if bands round here can't justify £250 thru bar sales..and that trend is typical, then they shouldn't get gigs and should give up.. I get that a venue can have an odd night, but gewnerally that is the game.. £250 and you do ok, you'll get asked back. £350-400 and you ram the bar will also get you asked back... it is all about track record ..more so that what you play. how you play.

Punk and a P.... 1x15.

The reason people don't like to pay for a covers band that they can see for free in a pub is because the said bands typically have no idea how to make it worth while paying to see them. Even as a 'support' band they'd get paid £400 which was as good a deal as they'd get all year, I'd suggest. But nothing is for nothing...they need to sell 80-100 tickets and I agree that is easier said than done. For that, they'd be playing a nice stage in a nice venue for an hour or so to about 350-450 people. As I said, if they had a better offer and gig all year, I'd be very surprised indeed... gobsmacked even.

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1440662772' post='2852708'] this, if it wasn't for hobbyists like me playing for a lower fee a lot of venues would have to close down I'm not sure what the argument is here, should we pack it in if we're not full time, or should we charge what the full time musicians charge? [/quote] Being able to turn work away...as it isn't your main income, is a good thing as you don't HAVE to take the gig. I like to hear bands charging £400 plus in a pub..as it sets the goal. The pub are willing to pay, if they CAN afford it so the precedent is there. But punters don't help themselves..they all go on about supporting live music, and then complain about the price of beer..??? Duh..!!!! The whole problem is that people have got used to cheap alcohol (supermarkets) and by extention, cheap music.. My solution is to make music licenses hard to get and cut out cherap beer from the supermarkets and back in the pub/bar. That would stop cheap pubs and cheap bands as only the cream would get the gigs..etc etc .. you get the jist. And people and especially women wouldn't go out with a small bottle of vodka in their bag...?? Reconcile that with people who think £40-50 is a night out..and they'll be the market that will pay £10:00 a ticket. Altho it was pretty stressful... we've been part of bills that have sold 450 tickets @ £8-10 a ticket and we were on the look out for bands that could help out.. Their fee would be about £400 for an hours set...but they'd have to be able to sell around 80-100 tickets... and none of the 'better' or more regarded bands wanted to know. They were happy to play a pub for £280... rather than put some work in and sell a great evening. And they'd say ...you don't expect our fans to pay do you..?? Well, yes..!! that is the whole point. The downside for them is that they never get out of a pub circuit and they never earn more than £400 at a private party gig.. All seemed very blinkered and small minded to me... but they'd still regard them selves pretty highly. Big fish small pond..?

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440656878' post='2852658'] There are plenty of Pub Landlords who love doing their job and are passionate about live music. Funnily enough they're the ones who pay you and even give you a bonus if they've had a good night. [/quote] Yes, and these are the ones you target to play ... I wouldn't bother about the rest tbh... if we are some sort of afterthought.. or rather the music is. One of my fave music pubs, the guy/LL is [b]always[/b] travelling to see bands..we have endless chats about music and he always says he doesn't see music the way I do, with regards what is good in a band etc....but he gets out there, he sees loads and altho I wouldn't book some of the acts he does, I respect he knows what he likes and sees and will book that band/act even though he knows they wont make much money...because he is a fan. I think that says it all... or rather, it gets no argument from me. (actually it does and I don't get his penchant for 3 piece blues rock bands with endless gtr widdle all night, but we laugh about it) I'll support the pub as much as poss, his pay rate is lowish, but you need guys like him...

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440656623' post='2852656'] You would be surprised. [b]There are some very dull forums where electricians talk about the size of twin and earth and electronics engineers talk about the characteristics of different diodes.[/b] It's possible to enjoy your work. In fact you spend a third of your life doing it, if you don't enjoy it you're almost certainly in the wrong job. [/quote] How would you KNOW this... ??

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1440622372' post='2852539'] It's quite possible, sixty odd members of the Berlin Philharmonic would say the same about you, if you crash landed into one of their concerts and tried your hand at one of their Symphonies...lol... [/quote] I think you need both... but if you earn your living one way or another, you aren't doing too badly. The problem comes if you can't cross over when/if you have to.

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1440593931' post='2852221'] [b]I think the story about classical players not being able to play without notation is just that, a story.[/b] I've just graduated with a degree in music, aural skills is part of the course. It's also part of the audition, the aural admission exam was ridiculously tough. I also know a few classically trained musicians, cello, trombone and piano, and aural skills are something they're taught too. They're also totally able to improvise and play over a 12 bar. It's a myth grown up and spread by non educated musicians, usually hiding their own musical ignorance. [/quote] Nope, fraid not. Was asked pretty recently about the very same thing... couldn't play by ear and by a very good reader. We devised a few things to work on The other guy was a pit muso and was known in the business for his reading flyshit as the sayi9ng goes, and had the gigs to prove it...but get him on a jazz busking gig and it was painful.... and I mean PAINFUL.

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1440610248' post='2852417'] yeah, all the bands are playing free, it's that sort of festival, hippy ideals huh? but I think you'll find that at most festivals it's only the name bands that get paid the rest only usually get free tickets, certainly most of the ones I've got experience of, which most bands are ok with because of the (perceived) exposure they get, as for being exploited, I don't think so, I'm a pragmatist, they don't sell anymore tickets because unknown bands are playing it's the headliners that do that. If you're in a well known band good luck to you, but most people aren't [/quote] I get this but I think good bands charge full stop...and they do so because they know they can get it. Of course, it might relative as if someone offered you the main stage at Glastonbury that would the Main cherry but it is unlikely anyway as the festival have NO reason at all to offer that. I don't think a good show would want to water down the bill by insisting on a free band... they'd be more interested in the integrity of the show than a small cost of the fee. FWIW all the best beer festivals around here pay...some pay decent money but none of them pay less than a pub. If they don't adhere to that some of payment structure, they aren't taken seriously and the better bands wont play that game for too long.

It is a must have IMO. I was recently approached by a player of 4 instruments in Orchestras how to learn by ear. Ideally you'll have both. We all know the story of very educated musicians not being able to play without dots and not having a scooby doo on a 12 bar. I'd say they weren't that musically educated, but there you go..probably the wrong argument To train your ear you have to use it, IMO.

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1440592290' post='2852197'] don't people support bands as well? if you get enough support you make a lot of money at it, if you've just got a bit of local support you make a bit of money at it, if you've got no support you make nothing from it, or maybe I'm missing the point [/quote] If you play a pub you are there to sell beer.... and the 'best' bands sell the most alcohol. A party will have a bar that charges...there is money in the system and it should be shared..ideally.

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1440571441' post='2851940'] it all boils down to this, do you play for a living/the money or do you play for pleasure? I'm in the latter so money is of secondary importance to me, in other words I don't need the money, I don't think people should criticise me for it [/quote] But you will be because it is a mixed market and some one will feel you are taking work off them. I agree that you should be worth the premium..and by and large it does work like that as free bands might not be that good.. but when has the customer ...especially in music, been the one who recognised a premium. Not often and made worse because they know about the free gig possibility. Landlords and club owners sussed this years ago with 'charity' beer festivals and monday night open mic/audition nights...etc etc This is why we talk about the gig..agree our bottom rate or say thanks for asking but no thanks Xmas is always difficult as people are upping their rates 1st week in December but anyone with a family should want triple or quad rate for NYE's.. minimum IMO.

Depends where you put it and therefore the cable run off it. The P.A company will need to tell you what draw they need, as does the lighting company. Ideally we'd split them... but depends on budget. I agree with the over calculation as we've found big P.A's are more thirsty and you can't run full power thru the P.A if the generators aren't upto it.. We had 6x13amp... for example, and the P.A couldn't produce full power. It was a very hairy Meyer P.A though and so it was perfectly adequate...but it would have been nice to hear it a full bore... What is your power draw..??

Well, they'll keep asking as long as bands are prepared to do it. Personally I've always thought there are too many bands and too many gigs and the relaxation of the music licence laws was NOT a good thing. Most decent bands I know say the same thing.

I just do something with really fast hand movement so all they get is the sound assault without really knowing what I did.. That is just showboating though so not sure I'd do that for your audience... but it is certainly dextorous, IMO...and also pretty clever/cool or however you measure it..?

As you know, the East pre is bass boost only..as most bass boosts on pre's seem to be... so that is a LOT there even if you don't go to the centre indent of bass onboard. I might use that a tad but no way can I get over that lkine without squishing the sound with too much bass. This is why I don't like bass heavy cabs and I generally consider them likely tone killers for that reason. Simple test...turn up the bass boost on your pre and see where all the character in your sound goes... ?? So..I use the bass control on amp and pre to add foundation but not at the expense of core tone. This is why I think strings are critical in this...if they are full of gunk, then my thinking is the sound is full of gunk. This is not a given that the bass sound wont work, but it makes it VERY hard to clean up if you decide you don't want it. So, I want the cleanest signal into the bass itself... not to be confused with clean amp. The best signal into the bass on paper is with a pick but I wouldn't want to go that far from a technical playing POV. I am finding the mid controi on the pre most useful and both my gigging amps and also my practice amps have decent mid. I don't bother with Semi para's anymore as you end up setting a flat line on the controls and using enhance or filters and that is a quick fix but not subtle enough as it is a pre ordained internal map, IMO. But the key is really this IMO..after setting up a tone that you can use... all you need to do in fit that into the band and it is just a question of seperating or layering the instruments and levels. It is pretty easy and what you are trying to avoid is a fight between this frequency and that frequency. Mostly this is going to be most apparent with bass frequencies, so kick and floor toms, lower gtr freqs and LH keys..or pads are the issues to focus on. You do need people to be aware that they may need to turn down ..and there may be small adjustment required if a problem. This cutting thru the mix is a bad position to start from, IMO..as that implies...implies.. that yopu need to get thru a wall of sound and if you have to resort to that you are getting into very harsh and drastic measures to do so. I can't see that ending up well . This is why..IMO..it is laughable that the bass in a 3 piece of gtr, drums and bass band cannot get through... ???? WTF is in the way...??? Just my take on it... but I think it is there or thereabouts as our band sound is better with just a Pub P.A, than most engr'd P.A's that we get to use...size of venue permitting.. It isn't the kit if you are talking pro-level spec, it is the core sounds of the band and the engr that makes or breaks it. Since we can get a good band sound in pubs and the like...it 'should' be pretty easy for a decent engr to mic it, level it and mix it as we don't have to worry about too much or this or that... as our core mix is good. IMO. So, back to the OP..this is why I don't have to worry about tone @ home and tone @ a gig... it is the same because what I practice at home, I be doing at the gig as that is why I practice it. I'm talking more technique than the song.. I don't practice songs at home unless I've never played them before...i,e a dep request situation.

Couldn't stay with it for 8 mins...Some I liked but had to give up half way thru, tbh

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1440350722' post='2850012'] Congrats Nick, am in a similar position, just played at a festival through an Ampeg, but more importantly heard loads of bands playing through the same, and just knew I had to get one. Admittedly the SVT3-PRO is nowhere near as tempting but it still has the Ampeg sound, but in an amp that I can carry. Ampeg-goodness, can`t beat it. [/quote] Lozz, the SVT 3 is not the Ampeg Valve amps. It is like the TH500 and the DB750...close and all that, but ultimately, nah...!!! I was going to add, IMO... but it is not that close...

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1440406741' post='2850312'] That's completely fair. We've been transparent about the design spec and the cab meets the spec. It's flatter than most cabs up to 4k with good power handling down to 40Hz due to the extended Xmax. It works well in a gig and responds well to eq tweaks which is what you would expect from a cab with a flat response, but the test of any cab is how it sounds and whether users like it. That's why I'm delaying releasing the final design until a few more people have tried it. I've been consistent in my advice over the years. A cab can be technically challenged but still sound great. You won't squeeze the best out of a driver if the cab is compromised but if it sounds great and you can live with the restrictions it's a great cab. Ultimately sounding good with bass is the test of any bass cab. [/quote] Yes, not a criticism of the cab as I haven't heard it or played through it... I'm just saying you can read it all out of a book and you can play around with all the sums you like but if you don't have good ears, you are stuffed.

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1440366795' post='2850196'] A cab to the shin generally does the trick! [/quote]