JTUK

They look interesting... The 5st Jazz basses models new are around the same sort of price you'd expect for a s/h Am Del 5st. Would need to see see and play one up close, of course.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1442741553' post='2869062'] This is what happens all to often when a new guy moves in. Many pubs are subsidised by the brewery so the landlords don't have to make good decisions when booking bands. We've just cancelled a venue (4 gigs a year) because the bands are being made to invoice an agency (the fee has also been reduced) who will then give the bands a cheque after a couple of months. For pub money it's not worth the wait and the hassle. Apparently this system is not being introduced to hit the bands but because the brewery has found lots of landlords invoicing them for non-existent gigs. Bad bands are getting gigs because the guys running the venues don't care enough to do a better job. [/quote] Common story... but that is the trade these days where LL's don't last 12 months...!!!

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1442742836' post='2869075'] isn't this just sales and negotiating technique winning over musical ability though? (and has broadly applied to many mainstream commercial acts for several decades) [/quote] Can put it like that... but the kicker is that this band feel they are worty the premium as they are full time. The fact that none of the bands that this line-up put out are any good is the odd thing- in that they charge that rate. It is not as though they pull well so I fall to see how this model works. Having said that, they don't show on the circuit too often of late...or if they do, it is new start-up pub and that pub generally doesn't join the circuit as the gig didn't work. I think most pubs can't and don't see the value of them so they do parties where £450 is more their market. Not sure £450 is a good price for a party but it's workable between 3 guys, from their POV..??

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1442735490' post='2869010'] I'm fairly convinced that the majority of the audience know when they hear a good band, know when they get a bad band, but the mediocre acts go down well. And as musicians, when we see a mediocre band we think they're bad. It's a different viewpoint. [/quote] They know what THEY think is a good band or one that they enjoy... but even they know and get to hear when a really good band surfaces...even if the music isn't quite their normal thing.

Of course, Landlords talk which is why your gigs need a buzz and you need that buzz from the start as after 6 months, you wont recover from gigs as people can say they've seen such and such and they've formed their opinion. Bands can't re-invent themselves that quickly. The standard is the standard and you'll position yourself accordingly....price-wise and appeal-wise. The fact that some pubs have a fee cap, in effect, is their issue and bands can take a decision on whether the gig is worth it. Personally, pubs aren't worth it but that doesn't mean I don't do a few that I feel work. There are plenty of full time guys flogging pubs but I assume they have cut their cloth accordingly.... But a decent pub gig to me, is one where the LL's know music and will pay accordingly as everyone looks good when a great night works.. but... a local pub LL boasts he has 944 bands on his books..?? but he only has 130 or so gigs per year... so that means he uses 40 bands??? You'd think he'd have a stellar rosta.... but I wouldn't call it the best pub gig around, at all.!!! But I'd think a new band wanting to get on the circuit would be desperate to get in there..?? That is hype and self promo for you

This is why there is such a clone 'market' and it was borne out of needing an industry standard but made better.

I broadly agree... And if you want to earn £500 a week and have a mortgage, then you need 3x £100 gigs.. which is a tough 3 days work ( to get ) and you'll need a midweeker or 2 and a few lessons, and/or jam night. -which reminds me..a local 'act' try and justify their fee @ £300 as the guys are all full time. I don't go to their gigs but I have chanced upon them in quite a few guises..same personel but different bands and none of them are any good..especially as £300 it 'top' band money. It kind of rankles that they think they are worth it..and presumably get it 90% of the time. I guess it comes down to 'don't ask, don't get'.. That is why I don't have any qualms about asking for £350 plus if I have an outfit that I think are worth it,,compared to what other bands are getting. But... I wouldn't be doing a 3 piece to maiximise money. But, then we come back to who will work for what. I think this is relevant as it is all about gigs that we want to do..rather than give up.

An agency for what..?? I'd only consider one if they could get gigs that I couldn't.... as why am I paying them 10-20% otherwise? Local pubs agents want 10% and they want it from every gig you do...??? maybe that works for those bands but I don't see them doing gigs that aren't open to other bands so I don't quite get what the deal is. Maybe the band are lazy about gigs and promo..???

And you have to have drive to want to improve to not give up... or you settled ages ago and you are in it for other reasons..?? If I thought I'd reached a level that I couldn't improve on... I would give up as well. This is why I don't want the 'downer' gigs..I don't want to get as jaded as I have been before.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1442656519' post='2868498'] I agree about the ego. An ego in check is a great asset to a performer. It's when the ego gets out of control and takes over or when it starts to exceed the talent that's when all the problems start. [/quote] Agree, I have no problem with someone who knows they are good... it is when you can't cash the cheque that is the problem. Also, the better you are, the less you have to shout about it. In this respect some of the top players you meet can be quite humble and not in your face. But if you want to get to the top, and these guys DO.. you have to have great drive and desire to be the best you can be.

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1442654685' post='2868469'] absolutely you've got to have a larger than average ego to get up there and do it, and why? because we crave the applause and acceptance of other people, human nature. [/quote] yes, I think it is there... how it actually works for some might be different and it might not be upfront but it is a driver. Even the most placcid players... have it, IME, they aren't very vocal about it but they'll show it or mention it quietly. Maybe they don't like to show it to others, but they have it.

I think it is a very good and valid tangent. For me money is important as does set a kind of value on your skillset...sort of.. and it would be easy for me to take £10k worth of gear to a gig...and I'd be shocked if the band had less than £30k on a decent gig. I haven't really counted.. so it is nice that you have help to pay for that. But the driver is the gig... there are things I'm not interested in doing anymore..so I don't do them. I've always said pubs are too much work for the money but I would say that about weddings and I don't want to do them often either. Two 'quality' gigs per month on average will do me ok...but the summer throws much better gigs your way more often and the winter doesn't. My mate who now plays a circuit in the States had a very good band back here but they played twice a week for 15 years plus ..and never got out of pubs and therefore never were able to charge much. What do you do it for.. money, love, combination of the two... ?? Because I percieve the bands I plays with to be such and such, I might want to measure that against how much the bookers value us.. And, I don't believe ego is very far away from most of it... I can't think of a single musician I know who doesn't have one tucked away somewhere or other..

I think a lot of bands struggle and skimp on monitors. Depending what your out front P.A is like, but min spec with be RCf ART 310 actives, IMO they are very directional and pokey.

I don 't agree with the muddy sound... as that is just set-up and should be easiliy rectified..or not even a factor, imo, but I do think some amps/rigs are too much for the pub. I'm not taking a DB750 to a small pub...but then that is obvious if you've used one.

Personally..and I think I speak from experience 2 hrs is a HUGE ask for a band to be able to pull. It isn't a show then..it is just a list of numbers where you don't play a planned set...you just fire off the numbers. There isn't then a planned thought out set. And from that...you would need a very very able reader of the audience to have any sort of flow in the set. In all my years playing... I've only seen one front person be able to call that.... and that was a function act. Anyway..it doesn't matter...there doesn't seem an appetite for it and I'm glad not to get asked to play more than 2x1hrs.. Our vox can't handle any more anyway.. and I think a sustained period of abusing your voice will impact greatly on your vox and range in a pretty short period of time...( too many don't have traoedn voices or have a regime for lookimg after it) My mates band in Florida have 4 or 5 main vocals for this reason... that also wouldn't work here. It is hard enough for a band to have one..

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1442601333' post='2868202'] I see where Pete's coming from. Over here, established with a following can make all the difference in the world. We know and our customers know when we play we are going to draw punters that don't normally patron their club and they are going to sell more premium alcohol. The bar band business is tough for new acts over here. Say a new band plays a bar and the crowd is week and alcohol sales are weak. Chances are that band is not going to get asked back or re-booked. And re-book is really the name of the game when your band is trying to make money and stay in business. Blue [/quote] It makes the difference here as well... no pub is looking to book an act they make a loss on. This is just not sustanable. And Pubs put on music to draw in people that they wouldn't normally draw in... Decent sorted bands aren't stupid...they aren't going to travel for an hour and not charge for it. If we drive 45 mins plus ..we do it for a gig that pays £100 more otherwise where is the sense in that. And if we get a guy drive to our gig for 45mins..they are wanting £80 minumim... whereby £15 of that migt be fuel. If a band were asked to play 4x45... people wouldn't be interested in them as a band as such so ppl would go to the place that had music rather than the band that people want to see. If you can entertain for over 2 hrs, then I take my hat off... because I don't know a band round here that is that interesting for that time. But I make the distinction between being entertaining and watchable and just having live music in the corner. Any band can play for a long time, but it is a really special night to be valid for that time. If more than 2x45 worked then either bands would be asked to play more... but that would cost double, or you'd have support bands. Maybe pubs have worked out how long ppl will stay and how cost effective it is... In this regard drink-driving plays a big part here as how long can you spin out 2 pints..

Don't know the cab but its a 210 isn't it? Adding another would be my first thought, for sure if the amp could handle it. If you have 2x210's..being properly powered by an amp @ 4 ohms then I think you'll be in business...but if the cab is 4 you'll need the amp to do 2.. and I doubt that will be allowed..?? I can't see a single 12 being able to handle a powerful blues gtr...so that would rule out the 121P... add another cab with that combo and you'll be getting there, IMO but you'll need an amp rated at around 500 into 4ohms for all that to really work. It doesn't matter about the 500w..but it needs to produce good volume at 4 ohms as that is what the 2 cabs that you'll need will work at.

[quote name='Lynottfan' timestamp='1442523128' post='2867612'] Go for graphite Rubis, you won't regret it, I love the sound of my Stingray with its Status Graphite neck on it, and for stability it is amazing, tune it up and I have payed a two hour set many times, and I am a bit of beast, not the most gentle with my Bass and the tuning was still spot on at the end of the gig. [/quote] Having said that, my 80's MM was a workhorse and the maple neck NEVER moved. That neck made that such a good bass. Since I moved to 5's... I don't think I could use that neck profile and if I had a neck made now..I'l probably have graphite stringers in it..just to be sure..

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1442567292' post='2867794'] There are a lot of British bands who could do with putting in the time. Many of the guys you see playing in pubs and clubs have no groove and are plainly not listening to each other or playing as a unit. Hopefully if you had to play for 4 hours a night the bad and indifferent players would fall by the way side and the whole music scene would improve. [/quote] I just put that down to band standards and whilst I agree it should be a band priority, I can't see it being a pub/LL priority. Some LL will do it and have a very good standard of bands so getting onto that rosta is hard and also an 'endorsement' that you have passed a 'recognised'..??? standard. But... the ultimate criteria in pubs is how many pints are pulled so the band with a great following trumps the best band around, possibly if the bar takings are better. Personally over in the U.K.. I've always thought less pubs doing music would raise the standard as only the best bands get the gigs....!! But...... who is playing these pubs..?? many top players don't bother with pub work and just go for the one -offs... These players tend to think functions are where the money is... In local pubs around here, you might see many a player who have played on huge albums and with top acts but they do it very rarely. But I bet they don't get more than £100 and I doubt they need that money.. they do it because a mate has asked them and they are looked after and it is a special gig albeit one-off..?? That does add to the music scene/circuit and generates very good interest and also I think people respond and support that. Pubs round here may also put 20-50p on a pint..and I think the punter MUSTget used to paying for music in one form or another. Pub money has stood still waaay too long, IMO, so this move to get better fees is all good.having said all that... Having said all that...I don't think a band can justify £300 for a 3 piece just because that is all they do all week... on the basis that they are full time. I think if they asked for these rates and were not worth it...and I'm thinking of one band that this applies, then they'll get flack from all round, I'm sure.

Basically you can test the market as much as you like but it all depends on whether you are perceived as value. Some pubs around here have a ceiling but that is as much to do with their years rosta as it is the bands, IMO. Some bands have a great night and then fail for no real reason...the date may clash with something or just be a poor night and the LL/venue has to take it on the chin. This is why they'll want to level out fees... good nights sub bad nights. I get that, so I'll offer a band at £250 min and they can pay a premium if we do well... But in a game of hard ball, everyone has to be able to stand by their bottom line and you may loose out. The struggling full time guy might have to take that £60..altho he really wants £80. Their call. But I think £350 is the target to aim for in pubs and those pubs are the target gigs....but you have to be worth it. It doesn't matter so much how you are worth it..(I put a premium on the bands ability myself)... but if all your mates rock up and the band is awful..then that is fair play too as you've 'earnt' your money... As far as the LL/Venue is concerned. Not sure I like the rates in U.S bars for 4 hrs or so... so stuff that. This is a conversation I'll have with my mate in Orlando..as he has done gigs both here and there. I'll see what bar bands are..? pro rata, UK pubs play better/more..??

^^yep.

It depends where it is choking.. If I do have to play with the neck...which I might want to do if the bass is new to me, then you have to allow settling down time..and I leave a tweak for 24 hrs before I consider it successful or not. But as for deciding a tweak or raising the action, I'd advise attending to the saddles...and see if that worked for you.. If it did, you've saved yourself a lot of work, possibly. If it doesn't you are going to have to work on the relief and truss rod. If you do this... don't go mad with the amount you do. no more than half a turn in a session in my thinking. Let it settle and see where you are over night.

I can see the advantages of a graphite neck bass over most basses but I'd rather have a good wooden one and if the body and neck are very well made, for me, there'd be no contest. Wood is much better looking and feels a lot better...IMO...and I prefer the sound.for a tradintional sounding bass... i,e less modern. If I was going to have a neck made and I'm thinking about it... my £500 would go on a wooden neck.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1442511122' post='2867500'] As I mentioned before regarding gigs. When your fans start showing up where ever your playing the number of bad gigs start to diminish. I really dig it when we have a 2 or 3 gig weekend and we have the same fans that come to all 3. Off topic, from What I have learned from you guys. I think our bar gigs in the States might be an upgrade from pub gigs. Blue [/quote] I'm more impressed or pleased if they pay for tickets... but yes, nice to have people consistently appreciate what you do. Not sure about the second point but my friend moved to Orlando and really can't handle the lenght of the gigs they are asked to do... I think he said 4x45 and 1x hr. I think the money is better, iirc... but then it needs to be 2 and half times better as he plays over 2 and half times as long. He has always loved playing more than 'playing' if you understand what I mean, but he says he is getting too old for that sort of gig. We NEVER play for more than 2 hrs...find we don't need to and the money doesn't really go up even if we did. There are some pub gigs that I wouldn't be interested in tbh... and I'd do my homework about them...even if they are on the 'circuit' but some are quite good, do things properly and geta good crowd. £350 plus is quite achieveable in a decent pub if you get and keep the crowd...but that crowd will come and see music...and so the band is more critical than just being a music night. This is why there is a large difference between bands and what they can ask for. Quite a few of the better pubs are doing doors and security and will pay for semi name bands. Their budget will have to be £1000 plus so obvious the size of the pub matters a LOT. But any decent and above average music pub with a good reputation will get 'offers' from touring acts and some will be able to take those gigs... the deal will typically be an mid week night, tickets and £600 plus fees for solo upwards. The offers to do these sort of gigs come from the acts agents and not the pubs... It largely works, IMO.

Haven't got pics of it all... 2 Sei J5's DB750 DB212 DB210 Demeter 800 Class D 2xTKS S112, one with horn. TH500 amp ToneHammer pedal SWR SM400 amp DTR1000 racked tuner. Korg GT10-B Jeez.. I need to clear some stuff out