JTUK

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1442170811' post='2864869'] Just been watching The Old Grey Whistle Test, sounds of the seventies on Yesterday and I was struck by just how poor the bass sound is in almost every song. All using classic gear which we now rave about. Valve amps and stacks of large speakers. The possible exception is the Ampeg Fridge users that sounded OK at least some of the time. Now something could be lost in translation of course but these were top bands, using then state of the art gear and recorded by the BBC. Almost nothing I heard would pass muster in a pub covers band today in terms of sound quality. In my memory it all sounded fantastic but the reality was that the bass in particular sounded awful in early seventies live recordings. So, was the gear really that good? [/quote] My recollection is that that was the standard of the day. I don't think Ampeg become the benchmark from a sound point of view, as so much as it did what it did better than most. This in turn, became the default hire in kit etc etc .,.,and so we arrived where we are today. Now, I think Ampeg on stage is as much iconic as anything else. That is not to say that anyone who gets to try one doesn't get it..they do, I still think an SVT thru 810 is something to behold, but there are other options. Now days, you are going to have great monitors and side fills...of a good few thousand watts, depending on your stage so the bass rig becomes your own bass monitor. The key to all this is how good your monitoring and depends on the PA spec/cost. I tend not to trust P.A spec unless I've seen the tech spec. Not sure about the recording methods of the time...

For this reason, I was thinking about buying in an LS9 for hire. There are plenty of engrs with access to kit but a good digital board is quite rare. As are decent monitors and fills for that matter. Nobody ever has enough decent monitors.

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1442158830' post='2864755'] How do you know - have you seen them try and fail to use a clean sound ?. [/quote] Seriously... I know. If I'm intereted enough I'll suss out someones style pretty quickly and I'll know exactly what they'll struggle with... Whether they'll see it as a problem is another issue... if they don't, that's fine as well.

All bets are off then, Dave, you don't need to decide on anything until you know what gigs you have to fill.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1442151149' post='2864683'] I don't agree with this, as I'm quite familiar with how my bass sounds through a simple DI into a desk and monitors and I've owned various heads both coloured and close to flat. I don't think a coloured sound is necessarily more forgiving than a flat one - for example the slightly scooped and treble-boosted voicing built into my GK MB200 is a lot more revealing of sloppy playing than the very clean and flat Acoustic Image Clarus I owned when comparing the two side-by-side. This is because the treble emphasis of the GK really brings out any fret buzz and clank which is less noticeable with a flatter voicing. Compressed sounds (including light drive) can also be revealing in their own way as they reduce the dynamic range. While this can certainly disguise any unintentional peaks, it also brings up quieter artifacts of your playing closer to the level of everything else which can make any sloppiness more noticeable. When playing guitar, I find that a small valve combo with Fender-ish voicing keeps me on my toes more than a clean and relatively flat Polytone, for example. If you like your amp and cab to be a certain way that's fine, but please don't flatter yourself that this makes you an inherently superior musician to anyone with different preferences. [/quote] Clank is a technical thing IMO.. it should be very very easy to eleminate. Or it could be very very hard...depending how you play. That is where the focus should be. If you like it...which I don't... you aren't going to work on getting rid of it...and as long as the ppl you work with don't mind, you'll be ok. The reason my amp and cab are a certain way is because they replicate what I put into it. Whether this would work ultra clean I'm not sure...but both of my gigging amps are pretty clean as it happens and one of the reasons I've stopped using a TH was because it has a harshness to it that I've eliminated using something else.....but more because it runs out of steam. An 800w might be a good idea. I'm more in the camp that time spent working on what we play would likely be a beneficial thing...which is why I recognised the main point in one of the compression threads. You either have these things come naturally...which are the remit of the very few, IMO, or you have to work on things. Sooner or later you are likely going to be judged as you move through the field....and the biggest thing there will be your sound. So...it stands to reason that you need to work on all that that involves... or not, as you see fit. it wont make the issue go away though. If your sound isn't there... that is probably the biggest limiter you'll have. But nobody any good has a poor sound..IMO.

I'd be very surprised if PJB didn't join the 'market'..

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1442146674' post='2864650'] Sorry but since your the one making presumptions about other peoples deficiencies i.e. that they arnt good enough to handle a clean sound should they so desire, the burden of proof is on you. Until that time, your statements remain unsubstantiated "tosh". Your essentially talking down to everyone who uses any drive/distortion in their sound, I therefore feel justified in calling you out on it and asking for some evidence. [/quote] Sure...I'll go to any pub around here and see 10 band and I'll bet 80/90% of the guys full into that catergory. Since that market is pretty much the market on here, ie, pub players and the like I'll also bet the same sort of equation applies here too. And a scan thru various threads will also point that way too. It wont be limited to drive...it will be the whole deal with their sound. That is why it isn't tosh... it is the way it is.

[quote name='deepbass5' timestamp='1442142089' post='2864590'] Part of me agrees, I have two plug and play amps with enough flexibility most of the time -MB and GK but still would like an amp with one good para mid to Eq the odd bad room, leaving my bass pre free for variations required song by song [/quote] I used to think that a semi para was a good idea for notching..but I have so liitle concern or problems with bad rooms, I've retired those amps.. ....an SWR SM400 and a TF550-B, and just go with standard EQ amps. This is all part of optimising a sound with the style I play... so I very rarely have to touch ANY EQ... and what works at home works on the gig. I do have tone shaping onboard an active bass, but again, I don't tweak much if at all. I turn up...play a bit, set the volume in the sound check and I'm off...apart from maybe having to turn up again as sound check didn't actually achieve what it was supposed to..which is a pet peeve, but there you go, It is only levels not EQ. So...none of this trying to find a sound... I've done all that beforehand. Not a short journey tho.. Any sound changes for a track..I do with my hands/tecnique but basically, one sound fits all, atm

Interested in the side dots..but for maple. I have some Sims on a Sei bass, that Chris M modified but my other bass with a maple neck had no dots and in dark light can be a bit fraught... Would also like to see the end result as he worked for Sei and their work is top notch visually...

There is a Fender P bass 5 on Bass Direct. looks interesting altho I'd like a j pickup on the bridge as well. http://www.bassdirect.co.uk/bass_guitar_specialists/Fender_USA_P_5_standard.html As an alternative to Fodera..??? but you do use a P-bass a lot, you say..?

I'd get out and try a few cabs.... and I'd get over to Bass Gear and listen to what they have..and if you have time, Bass Direct. It might take a day's leave and be a long day but it will give you some perspetive and might even change your mind on one or two things. On my shopping list for a trip like that would be CN212, Vanderkley and SL12's... Bassgear might have ATS and a few other goodies in. Also, they'll have TKS and amps to suit. For a serious test of kit, you'll have all day to play around, during the week, IMO. There is a reason that some cabs come with a premium and you may have touched on it a bit already... Boutique isn't really a factor, IMO, unless the band inisist on certain cabs per an image. Mainstream... Ampeg 210 and GK, maybe..but the other cabs I've listed really ought to be better..whether they suit you sound wise, only you can say

Only seen engrs setting up mixes with it... but as a supplement not taking over the main board.

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1442085852' post='2864376'] Complete tosh on both counts. [/quote] Explain why you think it is complete tosh on both counts..?

[quote name='Bassmonkey' timestamp='1442091396' post='2864419'] Disco inferno. Happy. Blurred lines. Play that funky music. I feel good. Superstition. Rappers delight. Etc etc. first set over. Went well. Bring on the second. And my cash. Woo hoo [/quote] Standard busking set in those numbers you've mentioned so when you have them in your pocket they'll feature on millions of gigs. Hit them all with any key and you'll be sorted.

Was an exceptional amp for the time.... no doubt.

I think the better amps ...IMO...don't have para metric controls..and I have two that don't, which I think is a very good thing. Having said that...my pre amp onboard does.. A 4 band semi parametric is old hat now.. IMO.

[quote name='tbonepete' timestamp='1442074950' post='2864270'] Blimey, DI boxes, how can I mess that up? (Rhetorical question :-) ), there's way too many choices. How is it that to get an uncoloured clean flat sound from amp and cabs from a mainstream manufacturer seems impossible, but there are seemingly plentiful examples of boutique manufacturers doing just that?, I mean isn't that like charging more money for doing less?. Clearly I'm in the minority (actually it's probably just me!). I'd have thought it would be less expensive to do no colouring on the amp, and design a cab that also didn't colour the sound (obviously after r and d costs etc), but colour seems to be the thing. Is it perhaps a way of disguising shortcomings in design, and excecution, or actual preference? What ever the answer is its not one the mainstream makers seem worried about....... No clean sound for me (al la yoda! ) Hehe. [/quote] No..it is because an awful lot of players can't cope with real hi quality as it isn't always very forgiving...so you hear an awful lot of stuff that you rather wouldn't. The same reason gtrs always want a distortion element in their sound

Because it is helpful and a quick fix EQ solution...for when ppl get confused The clip sounds very clean... so I think they are chasing Demeter. Not sure if they'll have the quality at that pricepoint tho..??

No, wasn't directed at you.... but it is the very confused thinking that abounds round here, IMO, of course. Such a common theme in threads... and a source of major frustration, as well, but it still crops up time and time again. My point is that some people know something is wrong but they never find out what..so they never fix it.

Because it is better.

Since we are up for discussion..... here are some more anomalies or just plain muddled thinking.. IMO, of course. Bass players want a certain sound.. what is the driver here..?? Likely the tone they like or certainly end up with is...'helpful' or 'forgiving'. This means the one they can play with.....however, it comes with a kick,..!! it sounds less defined... it lacks character..but we'll call that subjective and move on. This sound is already into compromise territory, you can't hear it until you raise the cab to your ears.... and no one else can hear it either as from about 2 mtrs away it is buried by other sounds.... bloody gtrs..!! What you can't hear unless it is right next to your ears is what the audience can't hear as they are even further away from the source. But hey, here is an idea, you want the best clean sound you think is out there... but you want to run effects through it as well... then you put flats on the bass and you ran them in 3 yrs ago. And you still can't hear...so, you eventually decide that something that will cut through the mix is very middy...you don't like it but you can hear it... it sounds a bit sh** but you hope the other sounds cover up that little thing...and you can hear it but you'd rather others don't..?? but hey, it sits well in the mix.. Sound like anyone you know...?? you've got more problems than you think and you are in a spiral of searching for a sound but you can't quite settle on one that works. Maybe..??

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1441983354' post='2863541'] I'm surprised at the comments about his poor tone. Is this not EQ'd for a band mix and not meant to be heard in isolation? [/quote] He was, in the beginning, known for his tone. His bass sound on My Generation and the Rotosound thing were major bass milestones. I didn't think the Alembic type goal worked myself, but then I'd say the same about McVie as well.. Alembic thing or their technique..?? But I recall getting ripped apart in the studio when my sound and technique were solo'd.. I've never forgotten it but possibly it never happened to certain bass plpayers as they were too big to be criticized when new technology exposed these sorts of things..?? In the solo'd clip, it isn't the tone that worries me so much... it is the rest of it.... - worry is too strong a word, but I don't rate it whichever way you skin it. In the grand scheme of things..?? it is just BC banter. He seemed to do well out of it..

The point is that if you read thru that other thread and get some defintions of vintage for example... I don't find the term complimentary. I tend not to use 'vintage' along as a term but will add 'vibe' to it but I'd never think anything 'wooly' is any useful sound anyway. The problem..as I see it...is that to some people it means such and such... and then they deride wooly as a tone goal.. I can't quite reconcile what people hear or what they want... but if I cross ref that with typical bass sounds I hear in pubs..I'm not sure I want to, tbh. So..if vintage is wooly... who'd want it ..and in what context..? I spend my life getting away from wooly... for sure..!!

Judging by people definition of vintage on these pages, describing any cab as such is like the kiss of death.

The OP has his answers so this is not an attempt to steer back into that argument, but I've done the 210 and 12 thing many a time. I currently 210 and 12 configs with differing amps. I liked 2x210 at 4 ohms and one of my amps allows 2ohms so I've had as a big stack, 2x210 at 4 and 1x 212 at 8. At very high power I felt one cab may have bottomed out so now I go 212/4 and 210/8. I preferred the 2x210 sound but adding a 212 underneath gives me some comfort to handle the lower end. It can be truly thunderous but I feel the 2x210 was slight more focused. My compromise is to have the 210 on top and nearer head height and let the impedence split/balance the signal from a load POV. I also run 2x112 cabs and like them..as do the bands I use them with, but still my preference is for 2x210's. If I had a gig with a decent stage spec... I'd have an 810, no question, but it would follow that load-in and out would be a breeze as in wheeled cab/ramps etc and stage hands provided. For other gigs with a car park and steps and all the other crap involved, I tend to have smaller options so my choice of rig is determined by convenience. Both sounds are pretty sorted IMO... altho the full beans rig is the full beans, just that it isn't always practical. Rig 2 which is a Demeter and 2 TKS S112 is not at all shoddy. I know I have a very good sound..unless I've done something dumb to screw it up But yes, I'm a 10's guy typically. Plenty of other things also in the equations as well, tho... At low volume...everything can be pretty equal-ish..but at high power, all those bets are off.. Check in to the Vintage/hi-fi thread for an 'interesting' read