TimR

I'm not sure that I've ever vetoed a song. It's just a bunch of notes. I have suggested thatvwe don't play one or two because I didn't think musically we were up to them. Which I think if musicians are honest sometimes we can't do some songs justice. I had a drummer who couldn't play regae to save his life, I'm not great at it. He suggested some Bob Marley and some ub40. We tried them but couldn't get them off the ground.

Well 25% say is going to be hard to measure. There's a fine line between having firm ideas of how you want a project to go and being dictatorial over your involvement. I can kind of see if you've had experiences in the past where no one has taken your song choices on board it can be frustrating. I was in a band where I ended up suggesting songs through another member of the band because the 'band leader' just ignored my suggestions out of hand (a control issue?)

Indeed. I think that's really the issue. Starting up a band with sole control isn't really the way to go unless you have something to give the other musicians. Be that money or creative input. Unless you are a very talented writer/arranger you need a guitarist to play like a guitarist and a drummer to play like a drummer not a guitarist to play like a bass player playing guitar etc. I wouldn't be too fussy about having strong control over it as it will probably drive you mad. Guitarists have a habit of improvising at every opportunity.

What's in it for them?

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1338292923' post='1672190'] if that was mooted at any initial band meet-up i went to, i'd say my goodbyes and leave. i'm always dubious of anyone wanting to proclaim themselves a leader without experiencing the group dynamic first [/quote] It's tricky. You need someone to initially get things going. I would expect fairly early on there to be some sort of director. I've joined bands where nothing ever got done because there was no leader. I suppose it depends on whether you have a dictator or a leader.

Well a few ideas for discussion rather than a rigid agenda. Nothing worse than sitting round a table saying "Let's start a band....." and everyone looking blankly at each other. I think my first step would be to establish a leader. Not me, I've been there and done that and appreciate what a thankless task it is. I would rather someone with some time and drive did it and I just help guide it if neccesary, even if they get paid extra from gig money.

I've done it the other way. Just turn up and play for an originals band. They gave me the bass lines I played them. Are you planning on writing everything, drum lines etc or are you planning on getting some input from the others? I think there will be very few musicains willing to do that for free. It's quite refreshing though to play in a unit where all you do is turn up.

I think you're right there. A few bands I've been in have been fine rehearsing for ages and as soon as the performance pressure rears it's head some people just implode. Getting a gig booked early, even just an hour support slot would be one for my list.

Has anyone produced a 'roadmap' with timescales etc? I'd not really thought about that aspect of it. Maybe we need a sticky on starting a band? In the past all my bands have grown organically, recordings, gigs and photos have come when we felt we needed them. While this won't be my band and I don't want to be pushy maybe I'll suggest we put down some timescales.

I have PA and lights. Not too stoked about how/whether that gets paid for as long as the guys don't start taking the P. I've been in too many bands where I've supplied PA and lights, hauled it to every gig for free with no appreciation, only complaints and no help loading/unloading the car. Anyway.... Some good points and motives there. Agree a setlist? I'm going to suggest someone does a setlist of about 30 tunes and we familiarise/learn 12 of them before we start rehearsals. I'm not really fussed what's in the setlist, I would rather learn 12 tunes and the band not get together for a second rehearsal than the first rehearsal be one of those "What do you know"/"Let's just jam" type thing.

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1338228567' post='1671211'] The only possible answer is "it depends". Why are you starting a band? .... [/quote] Some good questions there. For me, I've always played in bands and each one has had a fairly clear purpose; Become famous. (Didn't happen) Play some original tunes (ended up playing what the Singer/songwriter told us to) Jam on a Sunday morning (Jams get boring after a while) Commitments tribute band (drummer liked hard rock) Function band (as long as we can pick and chose the gigs paying lots and close to home) Cover band doing gigs (if they're to their mates) and so on.... This one? I'll find out later this week, but if it's rehearse once a week forever then I'm not buying in. I'm still doing that in the cover band. Gig, gig, gig please - money is secondary but has to be right. I'm not playing for 'free' beers.

[quote name='serengeti' timestamp='1338227979' post='1671198'] [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f67/if-only-i-knew-then-what-i-know-now-429034/"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f67/if-only-i-knew-then-what-i-know-now-429034/[/url] Check this! [/quote] Thankfully we've all been around long enough to know all that. But yes we've probably learned it the hard way. Lol.

I'm going to meet with some guys this week about starting up a band. I've played with the drummer a few times, and I know the other 2 guitarists are good. They're pretty much sorted on the type of music they want to play. I know and can play the genre and am looking forward to it. The only things I want to lay on the table are minimum practice, giging asap and playing popular tunes. Other than that I'm easy. What would you guys push for or be happy to let slide?

I think the thing to remember is that it only takes one person to see you pocketing a wad of cash after a gig to make a call to the TAX office. Then you are stuck with trying to prove that you haven't made any money. The onus is on you to prove you didn't make any money rather than on them to prove you did. I think it's still one of those rare guilty until proven innocent areas of life. The TAX office can look at your nice shiny toys, and villa in Spain and say well you only earn £x,000 from your day job and potentially you could earn £y,000 from gigging so you owe us £z,000. Pay up now! I think you get 30days or something ridiculously stupid like that. Your best defence is to keep a gig diary of every gig you do and how much you get paid. Then you'll get an idea of how much you're earning pretty quickly. Keep all your reciepts and write them in the diary too. Think this is how the caught Al Capone, so be careful, if it does start mounting up, pay the TAX. At least when they come knocking you have some evidence that you're not earning as much as they think. I can't see the point of trying to claim back a couple of hundred quid on your PAYE tax, I would rather try to stay under the radar and spend my time earning more money then messing around dealing with the TAX office. Anyone tried calling them lately? Their telephone options list is horrendous. Also, I always go into a back room or side coridoor when dealing with the money. I gave my drummer an earful once when he walked up to the stage at the end of a new years eve gig flashing around a couple of grand in used fivers and started counting it out and divvying it up in front of the people leaving the gig. Very Bad Form.

You only pay tax on profit. If you spend as much on consumables as you get paid for gigs you don't make a profit. However, if you buy an amp or bass. This is capital expenditure. You can only claim it as an expenditure after you sell it. If you sell it for less then the difference is an expense. If you sell it for more then the difference is income.

So. How did the conversation work out. If it's anything like the conversation I had, everyone will agree then you'll get an email the next day where someone has had a rethink and you have to explain everything to them all over again.

You have to show that you are trying to make money out of it. AFAIK if you fail to make a decent profit 5 years in a row they view it as a hobby.

I think you'll find it's for VAT reasons. If they're paying you cash they need to cover themselves. Don't worry about it. Just keep a copy. Unless you make £100 a week it's unlikely that you turn a profit from gigging.

Rather than ranting here or voting with your feet. Your best course of action would be to tell the venue what you think. That way another venue doesn't go down without knowing why people aren't going. Is it the venue? Or do they have an in house engineer who is no good? Or maybe they don't and should have an in house engineer?

Even more reason for the guitarist to buy the PA and hire it to the band/duo.

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1337606722' post='1662613'] ... Taking money from gigs before it's been given to members, though essentially the same, feels different. As long as expenses are covered and the money's going towards getting better gigs, it shouldn't be an issue to take the money from band earnings. [/quote] This is what I've said from the start. If you agree to do a gig as a bass player for £40 and the band leader can get £250 for the gig then you're not missing that £10 are you? If you want £50 then the leader should quote £300 and not be quoting £250 and then asking you for the £10.

Or hire the band's one

A singer only needs a 300w PA. If the band is any louder than that you need to start micing other kit up.

That's the difference between being in a partnership and being a member. A partner has to be bought out by the other partners/new partner. A member just leaves.... The Market value is the important part there. Cables get lost, cones split, amps blow up. Just because you spend £5k on PA over 10 years doesn't mean you get £1k back when you leave. If the PA is worth £500 you get £100. Which is why I say write it off against gig money.

That's about the size of it. Although with 70 gigs a year you can afford to spread that increased cost across all clients. That way you have the same PA for all gigs and don't have all the additional worry and hassle that goes along with hiring. I still don't see why people think that they are paying or contributing towards the cost of the PA. This should be a basic overhead. Some gigs (like pub gigs) there won't be anything to pay the overheads as you need to pay the musicians, other gigs like weddings, there should be lots. It all stems from the musicians believing that they are entitled to 1/xth of the money that the band is going out for and it should be split equally.