TimR

That's about the size of it. Although with 70 gigs a year you can afford to spread that increased cost across all clients. That way you have the same PA for all gigs and don't have all the additional worry and hassle that goes along with hiring. I still don't see why people think that they are paying or contributing towards the cost of the PA. This should be a basic overhead. Some gigs (like pub gigs) there won't be anything to pay the overheads as you need to pay the musicians, other gigs like weddings, there should be lots. It all stems from the musicians believing that they are entitled to 1/xth of the money that the band is going out for and it should be split equally.

70 gigs a year at £50 a gig is £3500. You could get a reasonable PA for that.

Ok. The PA isn't just used to make stuff louder. You have 4 vocals, need to be louder than amplified instruments and drums. You have guitar, doesn't need to be louder but putting it through the PA makes it clearer to people further back. Keys, same as guitar. Horn, again loud enough if you stand in front if it but you need PA to distribute it more evenly. Guitar and keys are fine through backline at small gigs but floor level amps won't carry to the audience at bigger gigs. In your situation you should agree a minimum fee (each) that you will play for. Then you add extra for PA. The duo get a loan and buy the gear and pay back the loan. That loan could come from you or the bank. After the loan is paid off the extra money goes into a pot to maintain the PA. If the band splits this money is split. The PA is owned by the band and is written off after it has been paid for. No one owns 'part' of it. The punter contributed towards it not the members of the band.

I think the main thing to establish is whether you are a band or whether you are just musicians supporting the duo. If it's the latter then the duo should be paying you a set fee to perform and taking money from the gigs to pay for their overheads. They should also be up front about it. That way when anyone leaves they're not owed anything and don't owe anything. The grey area is when you consider yourself a band with everyone on equal status. Which it never is. People's personal situations have a habit of suddenly changing when you least expect it.

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1337593459' post='1662318'] As a keys player, playing keys through a small PA makes as much sense as playing bass through one.... [/quote] Exactly. Which is why this is leaning towards a big PA and not just a vocal PA. 15"s or even subs....

For me it's the initial cost. Who is going to loan the band the money to buy the PA. It doesn't make sense for everyone to chip in a bit because then no one owns anything. As soon as the PA leaves the shop it's halved in value. The problem is that there is an 'illusion of worth'. A PA exists and so it must be worth some money. If everyone has the attitude that it's just a cost, like fuel, or advertising that has to be paid for it becomes a bit simpler. It's a pile of electronics that no one owns and the punter pays for. No one in the band is paying for it because it should be covered in the band's fee.

It's because as I said earlier. It starts off as just a vocal PA but has the potential to become a lot more. Already they want to put keys through it. The next step is harmonica or acoustic guitar.

Exactly. As I say. One person owns it. Anyone who benifits from it pays towards hire from it. Period. If I rented a house for 25 years and then turned around to the landlord and said well I've paid for it now, it's mine I think he would laugh at me. You may well start off using it as vocals only. Then the vocalist should buy it. Eventually though someone will want to put keys through it, then harmonica, then a bit of kick drum and ohh can I just put a bit of top end for my guitar and I think we could with some subs.....

If anyone complains about the £50 I just say fine you buy a PA and we'll pay you. You can store it and bring it to the gig, and put up with the wife complaining about the space it takes up at home.

%ages gets fiddly. I got fed up with hiring gear, reserving it, picking it up on gig day, taking it back next day, worrying whether itcwould work etc. I bought a PA. I hire it to the band. If it fails I fix it or replace bits. I add parts as time goes on. I charge the band £50 everytime. This is mainly justified by the extra time I spend loading, unloading, fixing bits, storage etc. After 10 years I now have a PA that should have paid for itself several times over but I suspect hasn't due to the bits I've added and replaced. Not including my free time I've spent fixing and ordering new cables etc. The one thing everyone forgets when buying a PA is all the bits. Sure, packages with mixer amp, speakers and stands look cheap but that's just basic starters....

It depends on what you mean by learn. Most bands I've ever played with have had chord charts to rehearse with even if they've insisted you play gigs without them. So a full knowledge of the tunes with charts to follow isn't exactly learning them but is 'knowing' them.

That's assuming that it was the bass guitar that was causing the 'bass' that was too loud. Ideally at every gig you should have someone wander round the audience to listen to the sound from different places. It's obviously not always possible.

Just illustrating the scale. If I'm doing a gig and my wife is out, I can drop my kids round at a friend's. Life is a huge compromise. If people are unwilling to compromise they shouldn't get married and they certainly shouldn't have kids.

That's not a skill. If you are a registered childminder there are all sorts of provisions you have to make. This depends on age of child and what type of care you are providing. For pre-schoolers this is everything from a basic teaching program to locks and catches etc That's not what is required here. Basic CRB for someone being employed but a family friend doesn't need to provide anything.

We're not talking about a crèche though. We're talking about someone to sit with an 8 and a 10 year old for a couple of hours every now and again. At a time in the evening when both kids should be asleep in bed. No specialist skills needed.

See. You should always lie. Or at least only tell part truths. If you say yes you can play everything on their setlist just omit the bit about having to learn it first. I suspect the other guy said nothing and just turned up to the audition having learned everything on their setlist. I depped for an originals band who only wanted me to learn 12 tunes. I practiced them for hours in the first week until I could play them. I didn't tell them how much I had practiced.

It's always tricky when wives/girlfriends get involved. Essentially you were on to a loser when she decided that the best way to support his confidence and depression issues was to join the band and bring the kids to gigs. What exactly was she thinking. I wouldn't bother talking to her about it. He's the one who needs to insist on proper child care while you are at gigs. Any children in the entertainment industry need proper supervision. It's going to go down well when you're in the middle of a BBC session and one of the kids calls up on the mobile and Mum has to go out to the van, or just as you hit the big time The Sun on Sunday snap pics of them alone on the van.

I think it's more due to how relatively inexpensive gear is now. My first amp and bass were second/third hand or borrowed. Now you can pretty much get a bass for a few Saturday's work in Sainsbury's or 6 or 7 pub gig's pay. Keeping new stuff looking new is ok up to a point but if you're gigging regularly it soon starts to wear. I think there is just a lot mire new stuff around. Brian May made his guitar from bits.

[quote name='Johngh' timestamp='1336931164' post='1652901'] .... To be honest, a band I was once in cancelled a gig because the drummers dog was about to give birth. [/quote] Probably a wise decision if it was going to halve your audience.

You have possibly made my day. This band has real potential to provide material for an epic thread. You HAVE to join if asked. I can't wait to hear about the demo. I don't want to actually hear the demo, the story of its recording wil do.

I like the £8 pencil analogy. I've done that at work, everybody uses bic biros and wooden pencils. I bought a pen and pencil set (less than £8 though!) everyone knows they're mine and doesn't pick them up and walk off with them. People actually ask to use them rather than just walking up to my desk and walking off with the nearest bic. Anyway.... I'm not overly careful. I just generally look after stuff, don't throw it onto the stage, into the car or garage, drop it downstairs or smash it into doorways. I've had people help carry gear who don't seem to appreciate, not how much it costs but, how much work goes into finding and buying equipment. My bass is obsolete I'm dreading having to eventually try to find a replacement. At the other end of the scale our drummer packs his gear away wearing cotton gloves. The acidity of the sweat on your fingers attacks the cymbals. Apparently.

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1336723757' post='1649897'] .... It turned out that it was only the second time that the band in its current line up had played together. .... [/quote] So the gig on Friday was the first? Did you go to watch? You should definitely join if offered, just for comedy value. Tthis thread could become epic....

How odd. I played with a drummer who couldn't play in 3/4 and anything in 3/4 morphed into 4/4 but I'm struggling to see how Honky Tonk Woman fits into 3/4. Jumping Jack Flash maybe....

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1335945783' post='1638290'] ... They have a gig this Friday - I'm going to watch them. The keys player is covering the bass parts, apparently. Audition is next Thursday. .... [/quote] I would have offered to dep for them on a no strings attached view. Pop round the keys house and run through all the tunes. Any you're not confident you play roots from the charts and she fills. It's a win-win.

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1335953788' post='1638446'] ... I just think we've had some examples, in this thread, of people overengineering the process. [/quote] Indeed. Some people have far too much time on their hands and spend it doing their hobby. Time they wouldn't spend if they were doing it proffesionally and paying for the time.