Bassassin

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1006812' date='Oct 30 2010, 11:24 PM']Hey, wait a minute! That's 1970's MIJ ply, not like the rubbish MIM ply you get these days. The only thing better than 70's MIJ ply is 60's MIA chipboard, though I hear that the new Korean MDF is pretty good. Going WAY off-topic for a second, what with that being a Rickenfaker an 'all, d'you think you could use the stereo output to get the two halves of the split-P and bi-amp them? I probably shouldn't have had that second double Jack Daniels ...[/quote] You're right there, Jack - this is made from the finest quality Korean ply, formed from driftwood pieces hand-picked from the banks of the Nakdong River. As any fule kno. J.

Ah - it was that one! Is it definitely a Hondo? If so the tuners are replacements & considerably better than the originals. Anyway that will be a reasonably cheap & easy fixer-upper, if you're not too precious about the authenticity of the parts you use - and assuming the neck/frets are all in good order. However - I concur with the prevailing opinion - string 'er up and find out what that sounds like, the opportunity will probably never present itself again. Do it for science! Jon.

[quote name='Johnston' post='1006362' date='Oct 30 2010, 03:23 PM']Two totally different factories making them and put sticking the same name on them ???[/quote] The Dillion doesn't actually say Rockinbetter, though - that's presumably just their name for it and nothing to do with the factory. And they're plainly from different sources - there are a lot of differences, none of which favour the Dillion. Tokai have used Korean factories since the 90s so it's possible the Dillion's from a factory that's also made Tokai brand guitars - but as far as I know there's never been any implication that their Rockinbetter's a Tokai! What's interesting is that apart from the headstock, the Dillion's identical to the Indie Rick copy. I tried one of these at Music Live about 5 years ago & have to say I was massively underwhelmed, considering the £500 price tag. I had a bit of a chat with the main guy from Indie at the same time - he reckoned changing the headstock shape was enough to keep RIC off their backs. Plainly that demonstrates a failure to grasp the nature of US trademark law - but the bottom line is that I think you're right. RIC is, despite its image & reputation, a small family-owned company and it's highly unlikely they have the resources to tackle trademark infringement outside the US - they barely have coherent distribution in Europe! It's probably not as important either - in the US they have to go after infringements if they want to retain ownership & exclusivity of their designs. It's not necessarily the same - or as important - elsewhere. I can understand there might be a number of issues with importing, but presumably the ProBass guy only brings them in a few at a time, so it must be possible to find a supplier who will deal in small quantities. J.

Thanks Noel, that's fascinating stuff & some very persuasive ideas. Don't suppose you have any catalogues or promo literature? I'd love to see some pics of the Matsuoka-made Shiros. Would you think a Matsuoka/Cimar connection had any credence? J.

Mr ProBass/Bassbadger imports his own line himself, as far as I know, and I'd be prepared to bet is doing the exact same thing with the Rockinbetters - which would imply they leave the factory badged like that. It also seems likely that his Probass & Retrovibes come from the same source, too. Dunno how naughty it is, apart from infringing RIC's (US) trademark - which anyone selling a Faker is technically doing, anyway. If you're looking at just distributing a line of 4001/4003 copies it might be worth trying to cut out going through an importer & do the same as him - it's actually something I've given some thought to. Wouldn't be Rick copies for me, though. J.

[quote name='noelk27' post='1005983' date='Oct 30 2010, 02:08 AM']There's a certain similarity between the headstock on this Kasuga and Shiro CS models. Am I right in thinking that Kasuga was also based in Nagoya, the same as Matsuoka?[/quote] Off the back of a Kasuga catalogue: [quote]Kasuga Musical Instruments Mfg. Co. Ltd 3-8 Amatsuka-cho, Nishi-ku, Nagoya, Japan (052 )531-6267[/quote] J.

This is interesting: [url="http://www.macbookscreen.co.uk/Rockinbetter.html"]http://www.macbookscreen.co.uk/Rockinbetter.html[/url] [url="http://www.rockinbetter.co.uk"]And so is where that Rockinbetter URL takes you![/url] Anyway - can't help too much with the Shine, having never seen one in the flesh - not sure if Shine have UK distribution at the moment, as there's nothing at all on the Shine.co.uk website. This is on the Korean site: [url="http://www.saein.co.kr/2007/bass/rk2000nt.php"]http://www.saein.co.kr/2007/bass/rk2000nt.php[/url] With the the strange headstock, extra frets & SD pups it's cosmetically a lot less accurate than the current Rockinbetter, but I have seen pics of these with the "proper" headstock shape too. The extra frets are down to the design of the bridge, which places the saddles where the string mute would be on a Rick tailpiece - on the Rockinbetter they've compensated for this by elongating the body so the bridge sits further back. Can't help thinking that must make a big difference to the sound, considering how much it affects the pickup placement relative to the bridge. J.

Just saw that myself & came here to post it. If I had a spare £900 it would be hard not to... Jon.

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1005965' date='Oct 30 2010, 01:38 AM']Whether McCartney is a good bass player and whether the Beatles wrote 'good' songs is a debate so covered in tiretracks as to be virtually worthless. And, in the end, it just comes down to personal taste. The 'influence' thing is often seen as an issue of musicianship and absorption of licks, sounds, techniques. But there's so much more. * They're responsible for the idea that bands could - and [i]should [/i]- 'progress'. Before the Beatles, bands were expected to last for a couple of years or so. They'd put out pretty much the same stuff across their brief career. The fact the Beatles' fame ensured they lasted for longer required that they had to periodically re-invent themselves. Thank the Beatles for Metallica refusing to lay down and die. * The Beatles killed Tin Pan Alley. Today, everyone's a songwriter. Unfortunately. * They moved beyond the idea of the Pop album as a collection of singles and filler. They used innovative studio recording techniques to go beyond 'song capture' and into the realm of audio creativity. It is the Beatles fault that we have 96 track desks and infinite channel capacity on DAW's. To the extent that recording live to two-track is seen as wildly radical. * The Beatles acted as a bridgehead for the idea of Pop as Art. Without the Beatles, no psychedelia, no Floyd, Velvets, JAMC, Husker Du, no chinstroking rockers. Just big sh*t-eating smiles and waves to the audience. * By virtue of their ubiquity and marketability, the Beatles opened the door to Pop merchandising, tat, spin-offs, stalkers and conspiracy theories. * The Beatles absorbed and re-purposed significantly different musical forms - reggae, folk, psychedelia, blues, soul. In so doing they exposed musos and audiences alike to new sounds and textures. You could make a shaky case for the Beatles being indirectly responsible for the idea of sub-genres within pop music * Without the Beatles there would have been no 'British Invasion' and no US exposure for bands like The Stones, Animals, Yardbirds. Muddy Waters would have spent the rest of his life doing cash in hand odd jobs and Blues Rock would not have been invented, so no bent note Les Paul Marshall Stackery. * The irreverant, provocative intelligence of their public pronouncements raised the bar for musos everywhere. Simple anodyne comments like "Thanks to all our fans and my favourite colour is blue" gave way to arguments about spirituality, The Establishment, war and - er - Universal Love. Without the Beatles, no Bono, no Zappa and no Silddx. * Philip Norman makes a convincing case for The Beatles as a major component in changing attitudes to authority, morals, sex and drugs. He also blames the Beatles for today's solipsistic Entitlement culture. Without the Beatles, chavs wouldn't exist and everyone would know their place, according to Mr Norman. And he may be right. Now you could argue that lots of other people were beavering away putting this stuff together and you'd be correct. But the Beatles were the catalyst, the bridgehead and the force which propelled isolated, nascent practices and ideas into the mainstream. So you don't have to like the Beatles - I don't much - to at least tip your hat to their influence on the landscape we inhabit on a daily basis.[/quote] Wing Commander DelVar - requesting permission to copy /paste this the next time I'm on a non-musician forum & find myself embroiled in a dispute with some chundering dunderhead who insists the Beatles were "overrated", "pointless old people's music" and that "Oasis did it better". Like yourself & Mr Daz I am no fan, but it's impossible to overstate their importance & influence. Jon.

[quote name='Johnston' post='1005832' date='Oct 29 2010, 10:04 PM']Ok read what I said I said the Link is [b]they are from the same factory[/b]. Not that they are or ever were Tokai or made for tokai just that they come from the same factory as some Tokais. Add that to what else I said in the [b]PM's[/b] and you can see where people are adding the 2+2. Including the bass centre.[/quote] That sir, is a fair point, and well made. I apologise for my rampant conclusion-vaulting and will depart forthwith to stuff my gob with humble pie. Jon.

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1005679' date='Oct 29 2010, 07:58 PM']I've never heard Jon being called "Wiki" before. Hey Jon, have you got a Wiki side?[/quote] Nice as pie, me. But I do appear to be a suppository of useless and frequently ill-researched & insupportable (mis)information. J.

Looks like the bass version of this piece of grot I nabbed at the car boot a couple of years back: [attachment=62517:front1.jpg] Generic catalogue crap guitar, no brand name or country of manufacture. Mine was late 60s / early 70s Korean, I'm inclined to think, actually played quite nicely & sounded OK too. Sold it for nearly £90, so there is a market for this sort of thing. Jon.

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1005657' date='Oct 29 2010, 07:33 PM']Even if the Rockinbetters do come from a factory that also makes Tokai branded instruments that still doesn't make them Tokais. If Tokai wanted to release a 4001/4003 bass it would say Tokai on the TRC. I have the Tokai 2000 catalogue which shows amongst others Tokai branded versions of the 330 and 350 guitars so they have no problem making instruments the copy Rickenbacker's designs and putting the Tokai name on the TRC. However I have yet to see a 4001/4003 bass with Tokai on the TRC.[/quote] +1 to the above - Tokai is a fairly small manufacturer & brand (certainly compared to many other Japanese brands) and it's incredibly unlikely they own a Chinese factory, or have contracted a factory's entire output. Do a bit of searching on here and there are some very spurious and circumstantial connections between Tokai, Tokai copies (ie copies of Tokais!) and a Canadian brand called Dillion - who use, and presumably own the Rockinbetter name. I suspect the suggestion that Rockinbetters in the UK are Tokais is a bit of baseless (and probably quite dodgy) marketing opportunism on the behalf of the UK importer & resellers. J.

That £100 one was a serious bargain - wish I'd seen that! Jon.

[quote name='noelk27' post='1004656' date='Oct 29 2010, 01:47 AM']Matsuoka also had connections to Hoshino Gakki, manufacturing certain nylon and steel string guitars for the Ibanez and Tama brands, and given the locations of both organisations, in Nagoya, appear to have used some of the same parts suppliers (seen in the bridge assemblies and control knobs featured on Shiro SE models).[/quote] Is the bass in question from the SE range? As I said when this came up previously, [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=7473&view=findpost&p=983921"]the bridge is identical to the one on my Cimar[/url] - which is from the era when the Cimar brand was controlled by Hoshino and was marketed as an Ibanez sub-brand. Early Cimar copies are very obviously not from Fujigen, and while the later original designs seem more consistent with Fujigen, there are some curious anomalies here & there. Could it be that Cimars were simply rebranded Matsuoka products? Have to admit Matsuoka is new to me, probably because I have little knowledge of Japanese acoustic guitar manufacture - but this adds an intriguing new level of confusion to the mix! J.

[quote name='noelk27' post='1004667' date='Oct 29 2010, 02:18 AM']I viewed that Jazz copy, Jon. There was no label or other marking on it to suggest it was Aria. Also, the pickups didn't look like the Maxon type I'd have expected to see on an Aria copy.[/quote] No headstock logo? If so I'd go with your assessment that there's no reason to think it's an Aria, after all. What do you make of the Aria-branded Kasuga LP? Obviously the Ebay link's long gone but I kept some of the pics: [attachment=62492:Image4.jpg][attachment=62493:Image5.jpg] [attachment=62494:Image7.jpg][attachment=62495:Image8.jpg] Jon.

[quote name='Johnston' post='1003991' date='Oct 28 2010, 04:20 PM']I have it on good authority the Tokai link is they come from the same factory [/quote] What - Tokai Gakki in Hamamatsu? Chinny reckon. These are sod-all to do with Tokai, [b]which is why they don't say Tokai on them[/b]. J.

[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='1004327' date='Oct 28 2010, 08:25 PM'][url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-1980s-Aria-Matsumoku-Made-Japanese-Shiro-Bass-/320609897674?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item4aa5d6ccca"]Shiro Bass[/url]. Listing claims that it's Matsumoku made, but in previous threads by Jon disagree. Wherever it was made (and my money's on Jon ), I think it looks very nice. Fair bit of the right type of wear on the back though.[/quote] This is the same one that sold for £128 a couple of weeks ago: [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Shiro-Aria-Bass-80s-Japan-/220678047984"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Shiro-Aria-Bass-80s-...n-/220678047984[/url] Seller is covering his gyppo-flip profiteering attempt by not leaving feedback - but this is the BC JapCrap Squad, sunshine, we know your type and all your little tricks. Certainly doesn't look like a Matsumoku - and tbh there's no reason why it should be. Shiro may be an Arai Co brand but they didn't exclusively use Matsumoku - Kasuga LP copies have turned up with Aria logos so there's every reason to think if this doesn't look like a Mat then likely it ain't one. J.

I've never owned MIA or MIM so can't speak from experience - but over the years I've read a lot of posts on here from people dissatisfied with their MIM and MIA Fenders, but can't remember a single one complaining about a Japanese-made J or P. Interesting, that. Jon.

[quote name='munkonthehill' post='1001866' date='Oct 26 2010, 10:56 PM']i just assumed the smiley face and the face laughing would show sarcasm in my reply. I guess it was lost in translation.[/quote] No - it was quite evident that you were being sarcastic. However it wasn't exactly clear what the sarcasm was being directed at. J.

[quote name='waldemar' post='1001913' date='Oct 27 2010, 12:00 AM']Posting some pics if any of ye are interested, although I'm sure you'd rather be looking at MM's and MIA-P's..![/quote] Not at all! Far sooner see something a bit out of the ordinary, like this. J.

[quote name='munkonthehill' post='1001685' date='Oct 26 2010, 08:35 PM']how can you say its a fake/copy with those detailed pics [/quote] Tuners are wrong, trc is a fake, fireglo colour is wrong, fretboard's too dark, the description's bullsh!t and the seller knows it. Any other questions? Don't believe me - go & give the guy £1200 for it and find out yourself. J.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1001797' date='Oct 26 2010, 10:01 PM'][url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/yamaha-sb-2a-1967-70-bass-guitar-surf-bass-/290492766863?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item43a2b7da8f"]Think this is an old one?[/url][/quote] Yep. J.

I might aspire to a nice little semi in Dennis Duna Way, but gyppo scumbag that I am, you'll probably find me slumming it in one of the clapped-out camper vans parked up on that strip of common grassland to the east of the estate, you know - Rob Green. Jon.