molan

I've had a lot of dealings with various custom builders (both instruments and amps). There are definitely some that are completely unable to meet any deadlines and others that get it bang on, shock, horror, even deliver ahead of schedule. The ones I've been most impressed with recently have been Fodera, Ritter and Carvin. All three have very different business models but all of them seem very efficient. Fodera used to have all sorts of problems but they are amazing these days. They give an initial outline time quote and then follow up with an incredible level of detail. You get dates for exactly when each stage of the build will start, from carving to electronics, the lacquer application etc. The new Standard instruments often come in ahead of schedule, the last one ordered turned up 4 months early! Ritter is a tiny operation with just 2 builders (one of whom is often travelling and promoting the brand). The great thug with them is that Jens Ritter is such a 'driven' guy and his enthusiasm for everything just seems to mean that he somehow gets everything ready more or less when promised. Again he has a really tight control over build schedules and this obviously helps. Carvin are much more in the vein of Sandberg and much of the core operation is handled by CNC. Their turnaround time is quoted as 7 weeks from placement of order to delivery (sometimes there's an extra week to get through UK shipping and customs). They always deliver exactly on deadline and everything turns up in perfect build condition and with an incredibly high attention to detail. I'm afraid there are just as many I've worked with that don't get anywhere close to these standards. Some are very apologetic but others just throw their hands up and say it's all part of the job. I often hear that it's a third party fault (especially in terms of hardware and electronics) but I'm not sure this is really a valid excuse. With many instruments having long build times I'd expect the builder to have pre-ordered all third-party components. Could be cash-flow that's the issue here. Few of these guys will get any form of credit so they have to pay upfront for all hardware etc. I've got a custom build in the works right now so it'll be interesting to see how it goes. . .

Popped round to Mick's today and dropped one bass off whilst picking up another for someone else. Had a good natter about all sorts of stuff, played some of his excellent basses and he made a fine cup of tea - what more could you ask for Everything about the three-way deal was really well organised and all communication was clear and efficient. Definitely a safe guy to deal with in confidence!

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1380462089' post='2225583'] Did a 3 way deal with Ron and Molan - went as smooth as...well a very smooth thing... [/quote] Not only did Ron help to organise a super-efficient 3 way deal he also arrived with a little portable drive full of great transcriptions for me to download We also had a good natter about bass stuff and I learnt some really interesting background on the life of a pro gigging cruise ship bassist. A nice day all round!

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1380466622' post='2225676'] Carrying on the theme of not usually liking high-end bass design but liking Ritters... ahem: I don't usually like the design of high-end basses, but I do like this one. I also like Ritter's design ideas and aesthetics. I just think that if I showed up on stage playing one it would look like a bit like a pig wearing a pearl necklace. Or something. [/quote] One of the great things about Ritters is that they are just so 'playable' and are genuinely great gigging basses. Of course Jens makes some that are pretty far out there in design and finish and I can totally understand why people might be wary of gigging them. However he also makes some that aren't as 'in yer face' and Cora's, like this one, really don't look that out of place on an everyday gig. This particular one has certainly seen some decent gigging action

Barry Manilow Joan Baez Joni Mitchell Wings Bachman Turner Overdrive Spandau Ballet Soft Cell Sinead O'Connor Led Zeppelin Billy and the Bollocks Clarence Clemons The guy from Madness Animal in the Muppets

Vic recently bought a batch of pedals from me and arranged payment via a direct bank transfer - all went super smooth and hassle free Definitely someone to deal with in confidence

I was reading some stuff about Bruce Thomas and spotted the signature Bass Collection model: Also a nice little story about the development here: http://www.brucethomas.co.uk/?page_id=24 Made me start wondering about the range in general. The only one I've ever played (and that was acoustically for about 3 minutes!) was the Norman Watt-Roy model: Anyone played any of the others?

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1380282155' post='2223186'] Cheers, Molan - that's very insightful. Out of interest, how to (for example) Aguilar manage it? The DB751 is about £1800 in the UK and £1500 in the US.. unless my figures are wrong (which is likely). [/quote] [quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1380286693' post='2223292'] I need to learn to read the post properly before I reply. ( Then again , it has never stopped me before...) Maybe Mesa see themselves as having more upmarket and exclusive products than Aguilar . Going back to when they first came out in the '70's, Mesa Boogie amps have a certain mystique to them , and the company will ( and should) be aware of that and want to exploit that perception of their products to the full . [/quote] I think there's a pretty simple explanation (unfortunately!). Aguilar are one of the manufacturers that have, historically, sold direct to dealers in the UK. This has resulted in generally lower pricing but sporadic stock availability and long time windows for new orders. If you had hunted around a few months back for quite a few of their most well known cabs - say a DB112 or 212 in a 4 ohm format you'd have discovered virtually none available in the whole of the UK. Ordering a new one would have been approx 6 weeks in the build schedule and then around 4-6 weeks for sea shipping. Pretty much the same story for a DB751, for a while there were absolutely no new ones available for sale in the UK (although I know of some Aguilar stock that's being sold as 'new' which is actually ex-demo show stock). If you'd asked for a single cab you would probably have simply told there wasn't any stock and you couldn't get one unless you wanted to pay for individual cab shipping (which would have been a fortune). End result was potentially low prices but limited availability. However, Aguilar have moved to a UK distribution model. Check prices for the DB751 now and you'll spot a couple that were ordered before the new deal that may be available at the old price, ex-demo stock that's risen to £1,900 and prices from one of the online only suppliers already hitting £2,149. The upside is that, from mid-October you'll start seeing much wider availability of all Aguilar products and a lot more dealers able to supply them. In a way it sums up what I was saying above - it's really tough to please all the people all the time

As someone who helps out at a retailer from time to time I see a fair bit of what happens 'behind the scenes' with regards to manufacturer pricing, distributor mark-ups, recommended retail prices and, possibly most interesting, customer demand. This could potentially be a long debate (and maybe this thread isn't the best place for it!) but as it's been raised with regards to Boogie pricing I'll give some, [b]very personal,[/b] views about some of this. Let's start with what the customer wants in a perfect world: Full manufacturer range availability to test and compare at a UK outlet (ideally at something approaching gig volume and for at least 30-40 minutes). A second complete stock of every item so he/she doesn't have to buy the item he's just tested at full tilt (and may have been previously tested by others). A significant discount on the item just demo'd if the second, unopened box, item isn't in stock. If full range isn't available then the potential to order with delivery within 7 days. Prices that match those available in the country of manufacture or final assembly (but only if these are lower than the country of purchase - this isn't always the case). An option to return the item within a fixed period, usually 7 days, if he/she doesn't like it after using at a rehearsal/gig. UK based warranty & returns with full spare parts availability for near-immediate replacement & return. I realise that it may sound like I'm going over the top here but I've heard people ask for all of these things both here on BC and at the showroom where I help out. Obviously individual people may only want one or two of these things but any UK seller has to think about potentially providing all of them. I think it should be pretty obvious that these desires are unlikely to be achievable in almost every case, [i]without carrying a cost,[/i] and there are lots of reasons why. [b]Taxes[/b] One of the very simplest (as mentioned above) is good old VAT & import duties. Taking the USA as an example I think the highest State sales tax is around 6.5% (the lowest is 0%!). Anything hitting the UK will have a straight 20% added immediately. There's then an import duty levied of circa 3%. These charges are added not only to the cost of the item but also any shipping costs. Many importers also whack a fixed admin cost on top. [b]Local Distributor[/b] This is often a cause of great gnashing of teeth amongst UK buyers. The cost of the 'faceless' distributor who does nothing other than ship products from the docks/airport to the retailer. In most cases of higher end instruments and amplification/cabinets this view could not be further from the truth. Without a distributor each dealer would have to deal direct with the manufacturer. This immediately increases the amount of time and admin from the retailer's point of view, which has to carry some sort of additional cost. More importantly it does exactly the same at the manufacturer's end. Suddenly they have a clutch of retailers clamouring for product and asking for shipping quotes and delivery timetables. In order to meet this demand, guess what happens - they have to employ more staff and cover their costs by putting prices up. Either that or their timetable 'fall over' and stuff gets delivered late and/or incorrectly. Often the most important thing the distributor does is to stock items locally or at a regional hub. I cannot over-state how useful this is. Many manufacturers build on a relatively low production basis - Boogie are absolutely one of these. If a distributor didn't hold reasonable stocks locally then every item could potentially be a bespoke order. You then need to factor in a build time of maybe 6-8 weeks and, if something is even remotely heavy, then a sea freight delivery of another 6 weeks. Potentially another week to clear customs as well. Suddenly you're into 3 month delivery times. Also have to bear in mind that shipping individual items is incredibly expensive relative to the unit price of the item. I recently saw a quote for a 15" extension cab from one builder that was greater than the cost of the cab itself! Bulk shipping of cabinets is definitely the norm and significantly reduces prices. However this needs a fair bit of capital outlay and, as most people know, cost of capital is not cheap. Distributors will also often take a risk on a new product that a retailer might be wary of stocking - another Boogie issue. Anyone who's bought direct from a low production specialist instrument maker will know just how frustrating and time consuming it can be - plus how rarely anything ever arrives when, or how, it's supposed to [b]Retailers[/b] I'm sure everyone has heard about the issues with retailer margins so i won't dwell on them. The costs involved in running even a half-decent retail operation in the UK, especially for a musical instrument specialist, are high. Cost of stocking goods and providing demo facilities can kill small specialist business - hence the tiny number of quality bass retailers over here. As also stated above, the 'magical' retail margin always used to be 30% but this is often not achievable any more. I know of one, very high profile, manufacturer that has reduced dealer discounts to just 15% on one of their better selling ranges. With almost every buyer demanding a discount, and heavy competition from overseas online businesses with significantly lower overheads & far greater purchasing power, then average UK margins have fallen quite a long way. Suffice to say that you won't meet a well-off bass retailer in the UK - or at least not one who's made much money from selling basses or amps! If anyone really wants a system where there are no distributors, to get a decent stock of product in the country, sort warranty issues and to hold spares , or retailers, where you can go & actually try things out, and just to buy direct from a manufacturer (that's based thousands of miles away) then I wish them all the best of luck. I hope this doesn't all sound too negative. Just trying to add a bit of personal perspective on why stuff often costs much more here in the UK than in markets like the USA. Of course the relative price will vary from brand to brand and Mesa Boogie may have a greater variance than others. I could probably sit down and work out a set of comparative costs and estimate how shipping, taxes, distributor, retailer margins etc effect this particular brand but maybe that's for another day

Official update is that the Prodigy will not be shipping into the Uk for 6-8 weeks. There's a strong possibility that the, higher powered, Strategy may come in at the same time. Numbers will be very small for both heads to begin with. Pricing may change - there were initial list prices for both but these are circa 6 months out of date and it's possible a completely new set of Mesa Boogie prices will be issued soon (this doesn't necessarily mean they will rise - the £ has improved against the $ in recent months). With reference to an earlier question - there is no fixed pricing agreement in place for Mesa Boogie products. Dealers may choose to stick to RRP but that is their prerogative and not anything that could be enforced by a manufacturer (I have a feeling it's not even allowed legally in the EU).

Still some tickets left if anyone fancies this!

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1380099377' post='2220657'] Hmmmm. Here's an example. Mesa Walkabout Scout 12: US: $1600 UK: $2800 (i.e.£1750 from Thomann) That's £1000 mark-up. Even when you take into account shipping it across the Atlantic, taxes, etc.. something's wrong there. [/quote] That's above RRP in the UK, although not much. RRP is £1,599 so it should be able to get one for less from a UK dealer. I'd estimate a UK dealer could sell for £1,500 if he wanted to. I will get some price updates though because these prices are maybe 6 months old now.

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1380097440' post='2220628'] When you do, can you give him a gentle(ish) slap and say 'That's from WoT in protest at your EU pricing policy', please? [/quote] That's part of the problem when there's an independent distributor involved in the supply chain. Good (or at least better) for product availability but is going to add anywhere from 10% - 25% to prices to cover their margin This is just about to happen to another major US bass brand in the next few weeks as well. . . Edit - I don't think distributor margins are excessive given costs of storage and other overheads. Let's face it, you never meet a rich musical instruments distributor!

I'm seeing the UK distributor on Thursday mornng - will be able to report back on details of pricing and availability after that

[quote name='Salt on your Bass?' timestamp='1380027944' post='2219717'] Wow that looks nice!! I reckon they'll end up around the £2k mark here?? any advances? [/quote] UK list price is £1,499 so expect 'street' to be lower than this. Strategy list is £2,299. These prices were set a few months ago so they may change.

BassGear have some free tickets to see Paul Turner's band The Dark Sinatras at the South Street Centre in Reading this Friday - 27th September. They describe themselves as "a high octane mix of rock, progressive metal and hard funk" and are a real departure from the type of music Paul is most often associated with. Loads of odd time signatures and some super tight playing - they really are quite something to see live if you're into modern heavier stuff like this. Paul is a stupidly good player and his fingers seem to move at the speed of light on some of their stuff BassGear has about 6 tickets left to give away to see them and the venue is a good size and easy to get to in Reading. Just email info@bassgear for tickets - first come first served Might be an opportunity for a little BassChat night out if anyone is local and fancies going Should be able to get Paul to come and say hi as well - he's a super nice guy and really friendly! Here's a couple of examples of them playing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiPKglkUrQ8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_zkh3VOjwE Their site: http://www.thedarksinatras.com/index.php South Street details http://www.readingarts.com/southstreet