drTStingray

Rick - thanks for your advice. I am guessing fiesta red may be the opposite extreme in terms of desirability for a custom colour (particularly on a Precision), given the Pino Palladino and Jet Harris uses of this colour? The black issue is in contrast to the situation now where (apparently) the most popular colours in terms of sales are black and sunburst.

[size=6][sub][size=4]A couple more droolworthy pics[/size] [/sub][/size] [size=5][sub][attachment=118872:pdn Bongo.jpg][/sub][/size] [size=5][sub][attachment=118873:PDN Bongo headstock.jpg][/sub][/size] [size=5][sub]Yes I would like a Bongo 5 please!! Or a Stingray...............etc etc! [/sub][/size] [size=5][sub][size=6][sub][size=4][quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1348094033' post='1809369'] That Sterling is basically the Big Al concept ain't it? [/quote][/size][/sub][/size][/sub][/size] [size=5][sub] [/sub][/size] [size=5][sub][size=6][sub][size=4]Well the pick up arrangement is - lacks the pointy pointy body though.[/size][/sub][/size][/sub][/size]

I would not rule that out. However, if I go down the vintage/investment route a pre CBS Fender is a likely target.

[quote name='cloudburst' timestamp='1348090623' post='1809302']And they obviously didn't foresee the toilet-seat banter, otherwise they'd have made the final one a different colour. You'd think. CB [/quote] The white version didn't last long - very rare and quite sought after. They said they discontinued it because of problems matching the neck and body colours but I have always wondered if the TB banter influenced it. Apparently the Sterling was intended to have single colis but the MM single coil pick up hadn't been perfected by then so appeared on the Bongo first. Back to the mahogony Bongo - someone on the MM forum has received his Bongo 6H so more pics should be available soon. Be interesting to see the headstock treatment on a Bongo.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1348009324' post='1808209'] BTW the 30 year rule thing is something I just have noticed- no idea if it's actually true or carries on[/quote] Folks - please note. However I have also noticed this - as people who know me will know, my main bass playing interest is Musicman, and for the last few years I have watched the price of late 70s and especially early 80s basses escalate in price. I have bought new ones in the past although have picked up an early 90s one recently (which I use almost weekly in gigs!) - I passed on buying an MM Cutlass and an artist owned pre EB Ray in the early 2000s - kick myself on one hand, but then think I wouldn't have the gorgeous SR5 I bought new at the time if I'd bought one of these. I expect that these modern basses may increase in value as they get much older - but that will be something for my children to think about!! I ain't selling em. [quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1348040968' post='1808318'] Absolutely essential to try before buying in my opinion, do some research by going somewhere that has lots in stock and hear and feel the differences between otherwise identical instruments. The Gallery in Camden seem to have a quite a few in at the moment [url="http://www.thebassgallery.com/Product_VintageGear.cfm"]http://www.thebassga...VintageGear.cfm[/url] also Andy Baxter in Shoreditch usually has loads [url="http://andybaxterbass.com/"]http://andybaxterbass.com/[/url] I tried two almost identical Jazz basses, one a scruffy well worn 72 and one an almost pristine 69. Despite both basses being nice and light, having fresh strings and a good setup the pristine 69 sounded like junk, everything that was bad about CBS basses. The 72 however was great and is now one of my favourite basses. I'd suggest getting out there and playing some now even if you're not ready to buy, it can take a while to find what you're looking for. [/quote] Good advice thanks - I do look at what the Bass Gallery has, and have spent time in Vintage and Rare also on occassion. Andy Baxter has Musicmans including a Sabre.......................I think I would get side-tracked!!!

Yes pao ferro is used on EBMM fretless necks - it looks great on mine (which is also in the colour now known as honeyburst!!) Only a couple of Bongos have been produced before in a trans colour over a figured wood - one was mahogony for an artist. The bass had been played by quite a number of the American forum members as it appeared at an 'open house' event - it had become revered as a great sounding instrument - so the availability of this (if you pre-ordered it about 9 months ago) on a Bongo has sparked a lot of interest from fans who are awaiting their arrival this month. SOme American dealers have also pre-ordered some so there will be some available (Musicman 20 has enquired and as none have been ordered in the UK, EBMM have said they will allow them to be shipped, on individual agreement). They were available across the whole bass range offered, including lefties and fretless - so people are awaiting Big Als, Reflexes and Sterlings. People have ordered some quite unusual configs - I think there's a Bongo 6Hp, for instance. I read some recent stuff from Sterling Ball which referred to him particularly liking BMW's modern take on the Mini (to the extent he had one for a while) and that this had been part of the move to involve BMW, after he realised their Dreamworks team was in California - they were very happy to be involved and the Bongo was their code name for the bass guitar project. (Of course, the Mini had been designed/developed in the UK by Rover by the time BMW got involved and subsequently bought out just that model and factory - no doubt the Dreamworks team got involved in the car after they bought into Rover).

I have read that a rubber (pencil/ink eraser type..........no other type of rubber for those with too much knowledge of 1950s UK popular culture!) can sort this out - not tried myself but maybe worth a go.

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1348000071' post='1808022'] I'm not a SB fan, nor a Bongo fan, but that looks nice. It's the hideous pale rosewood fretboard I can't stand. [/quote] It's pao ferro (as featured on fretless Musicman basses) - I agree it looks a bit insipidon that wide 6 string neck, but the 4 string Ray looked far better - the varnished birds eye maple headstock helps - not visible in the Bongo pic.

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1347976791' post='1807503'] For the most part, I'd agree with this. Every bass should be judged on its merits, I've seen some '63 Jazz's for example that are absolute dogs, so year alone is not an indication on quality, or investment. Having said that, you can generally rely on them to increase in value, but you must have a good one, that will always appeal to players and collectors. All of mine have increased in value since buying, some significantly so. The main things to consider are; Firstly, and most importantly, does it play properly, and does everything function as it should, Truss rod free, with plenty of movement?, wiring and pots crackle free, neck straight, good intonation etc. If all that stuff is OK, then you know it plays, and therefore is fit for its primary function, so huge tick in the box, and then you can move on to the stuff that should be considered, if you are also hoping for investment opportunity, these things include; Originality, particularly finish. Refinished basses will never appreciate at the same rate as original finishes. Most collectors won't touch refinished guitars, so your market, when re-selling, is instantly reduced. On the other hand, by the same token, refin'd guitars are much cheaper in the first place, which can mean you can afford a '62 Jazz, for the same price as a '68 original finish Jazz. Original pickups, pots etc are also vitally important. Basically, the more thats original, the more desirable. If it has original case, this also makes a difference. Years, and colours, is very difficult, as each one should be taken on its individual merits. the [i]general[/i] rule of thumb, is the earlier the better, so, a '60 Jazz will be more valuable than a '62, which will be more valuable than a '64. Slab necks are also far more desirable than veneer necks on Jazzes. Precisions are a bit different, as there were more models available, and each one has a transition period, which brings in different things to different collectors, but you've already said you dont like the pre-57 shape, so that makes it far easier. A gold anodized guard/maple neck is probably the most desirable, and regarded as the ultimate fender bass, the one that Leo finally perfected after the earlier 6 years. A gold guard, with rosewood neck is rarer, but less desirable, as it looks odd for the purists. From there, again, its generally earlier the better. A slab board is better than a veneer board, spaghetti logo's without pat numbers, better than ones with. Transition decals are then cheaper than spaghetti's etc. Colours. Custom colours are rarer than sunbursts, but can be an acquired taste, not everyone likes candy apple red, or lake placid blue, including me. I personally think a Fender bass should be sunburst or blonde, depending on the era, and thats what I buy, others collect [i]only[/i] custom colours! Again, each one on its merits, and of course, whether it's value or not. Also, some custom colours are crazy rare, Teal Green for example, on a jazz is highly prized, and can command serious cash, Black, also a custom colour, is a bit of a no-no when it comes to old Fenders, and can be very difficult to shift, collectors generally won't touch one. In summary, originality, playability, rarity and condition, will dictate the value, and subsequent appreciation, and re-saleability (made up word!), the higher the rating on each of those 4 counts, the better the investment opportunity...in the medium to long term of course, not much doubles over night! Cautionary note, an instrument (or anything), will only be a good investment if you dont pay over the odds in the first place, so make sure its a good opportunity. Todays market is an excellent time to buy, with more choice out there than I've known for a long time (Even if most are in the US, which may be an issue for some buyers). i would also advise you to firstly buy a guitar because it plays and sounds how you want it to, and secondly for the other factors. Don't just buy a guitar because its 'vintage'. Your budget, and only you will know what this is, will dictate what level instrument you will be looking at, whether it's an original '58 Precision, an original '63 Precision, a refinished '64 Jazz etc. Shop around, use gBase as a guide to what prices things are being offered at, and make a judgement. I'd be more than happy to advise on anything you have in mind, and give an objective view. Hope this helps. Rick [/quote] Rick - thanks for this, it's very helpful. If/when I do get to the stage of buying one I'll certainly PM you. Thanks to everyone else as well. I would certainly want to buy one which functioned properly, played well and was as original as possible (thus implying the need to try before buying) - many seem to have replacement pots and tuners but I guess this is wear and tear? Would this put people off, in terms of resale desirability? I've had to replace more than one tuner on my Musicman basses, but with Musicman items - basically caused by gigging damage (pesky drummers and all that steelwork!! And sax players are almost as dangerous) - so I would see this as a not-unusual situation in a vintage bass, so long as the correct items had been used to effect the repair - I guess a good player is more likely to have been played and thus may be more battered than a case queen that had sat there because owners didn't like it as a player - or do collectors just park them for decades to look at or not as the case may be? [quote name='thodrik' timestamp='1347995167' post='1807902'] Pretty much. In 1998 my 1978 Precision cost me £380. I've seen basses from a similar era going for £1200 or even more. Its strange though as the basses themselves are no better than they were ten years ago.[/quote] That's very interesting - FWIW in 1973 I spent several idle minutes and more every time I passsed a shop window in which resided a brand new Precision in natural, maple board, black scratchplate near where I lived - THE R and B bass of the time to have, as seen with Stevie Wonder and others of the time - it's tag price was £252! So given that was the age of huge inflation, a value of a late 70s bass (similar era) selling in 1998 at about £400 is quite surprising. As a comparison the sunburst Stingray I bought new in 79/80 was £350/£375, I think. I sold it for £475 about 5 yrs later - it sold within an hour or two of the ad appearing in the back of Melody Maker, and the guy drove 100 miles that night to collect it!! Just goes to show that the market goes up and down, but 30 yr thing is very interesting - and I agree, the price of 70s Fenders (and Musicman) has increased dramatically - I guess it's because the value of the 60s stuff has moved out of reach of many people who want to own and play them.

It sure looks woody anyway!! I've yet to see a 4 or 5 string but these look yummy to me. The necks are wax and oil finish, roasted birdseye and look stunning also.

I'm thinking of buying a vintage bass, largely as an investment, to play at home and maybe very very occassionally for gigs etc. I hear lots of talk of this year is better than that, this colour is better than that etc etc but I'm keen to hear advice on this. My likes are:- clay dots/rosewood board; sunburst, blonde, fiesta red or sonic blue - don't care if it's a Precision or a Jazz - would need to be fully functional and as original as possible - i.e it would need to have the covers and case etc etc. If a Precision I don't like the pre-57 shape. So guys, please advise - what do you think is the best year, colour and model to aim for of a pre CBS Fender, bearing in mind it's intended to be an investment and increase in value.

I must confess the picture of this 6 string Bongo in the PDN2012 series (honeyburst, mahogany body, roasted birds eye maple neck, pao ferro fretboard) made my heart skip a beat. Now a six string is beyond me, but a 4 or 5 in this configuration is a mouthwatering temptation. The burst colour seems to tone down the futuristic look of the body shape to my eyes, also. [attachment=118670:bongo 6 mahogany honeyburst.jpg]

Interesting - presumably it was either broken in the incident, the other guys removed it so it didn't wind him up again, or it went back to the manufacturer from whom it had arrived. Perhaps it was something they just wanted for that track and they borrowed it - according to the quote, he told them never to let him play it again, so it's hardly likely he'd refer to it in 1979 I guess.

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1347742165' post='1804618'] I'll stand corrected if wrong, but it is quite a famous story, which is claimed, by a fender R&D rep, to have damaged the reputation of the Bass V. I'll find the actual story at some point, its quite a famous story, as the original poster stated. Can't imagine JJ having an issue with a fretless, as he was a doghouse player, ewhereas the Bass V, is just a dog to play! I'm off to trawl my many books to find the story...... [/quote] I think it extremely unlikely that Jamerson's view would have damaged the reputation of the Fender bass V especiallly as Jamerson was only really known to fellow Motown session players, Motown's hierarchy and American musos until the Dr Licks project and subsequent film (published 1989). When I first noticed Jamerson's playing (early 70s), nobody seemed to know who it was and none of the guys were credited at the time. I've never played a bass V but eyed one very suspiciously in a music shop in the late 60s - during which visit I played a Precision for the first time - and was astonished at the neck width - mind you I was only a young teenager. I have noodled on a bass V1 before - they both seem to be aimed at the baritone sound market (by having high tuned upper strings) popuralised on a number of early 60s songs, but to allow you to play bass as well - not sure how the bass was supposed to continue whilst you played the lead though............thus I suspect the bass V and V1's fortunes waned with the change in musical taste (briefly re-popuralised by Galveston by Glenn Campbell) - and the need to have a bass player as well if you were going to perform live - thus guitarists like Hank Marvin tended to use them as an additional lead instrument on occassional tracks. I also suspect that the section in Dr Licks' book has been misread or misremembered by people and re-quoted (as I did - thinking it said Precision fretless when it just says fretless). The bass V, Hagstrom and fretless are all mentioned in the section as occassional uses (when not using his Precision), but JJ's wrath is quoted as being taken out on the fretless, by the keyboard player on the session. Based on the timing of the Supremes track, this would put it at 1968/9. What fretlesses were available then? Ampeg baby bass - Fenders? There can't be many to choose from. Although he was an upright player, the sound of an upright can help to mask the sound of slight imperfections in playing intonation (hoping not to upset upright players here) - for anyone who's played a fretless electric, there is no hiding place - imperfection in intonation is clearly audible. So if JJ wasn't used to this and was recording with it the first time he played it, it is entirely possible to imagine frustration occurring, especially as the Motown studio is described as a production line - he would thus be under pressure to nail it quickly (and have an enviable reputation for doing so normally) - and he did have a reputation for being a little volatile at times............... For any bass player interested in R and B style bass playing, the Dr Licks book and CDs/transcriptions which come with it are a fabulous resource - there's nothing like hearing Pino, Marcus, Jack Bruce and many others play arguably some of the best pop/soul bass lines ever recorded. It will be interesting to hear what you come up with, Essential Tension. Also if any of the vintage buffs know what fretlesses were available in 68/69 that would also be interesting. And whlist I think about it, my Lak(e)Land's dry as a bone.................

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1347631095' post='1803325'] This. [/quote] Not a Fender bass V - it was an undisclosed make of fretless. And try as I might my Jaguar neither purrs nor makes any other big cat noises.....

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1347628912' post='1803273'] I did say that my calculations were rough. I didn't allow for the thickness of the cab material (just took the outside dimensions), the fact that the cab isn't a basic six-sided object but has two wedge shaped cutouts at the back which reduce the overall volume, not did I factor in the reduction in internal cab volume due to space occupied by the speakers and any other items inside the cab, so 350g is somewhat optimistic! [/quote] I've been going over and over this and can't get the weight loss at more than 327 grammes............... And would the helium not make the bass sound all tinny with no balls I would also like to see a sealed 8 x 10 Ampeg refrigerator filled with sand - I've heard that Abbey Road studios used a big speaker cabinet with an 18 in speaker ballasted with sand for bass guitar recording purposes in the early 60s - apart from increasing the weight hugely I'm not entirely sure what effect this will have, but as it's based on a vintage idea it must be good eh??

[sup][size=5][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Here's my take on the question, based on basses I've never played:-[/font] [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Musicman Gamechanger[/font] [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Musicman Bongo fretless[/font] [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Wal[/font] [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Alembic[/font] [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Status[/font][/size][/sup]

[quote name='walbassist' timestamp='1347572453' post='1802729'] Well there you go, apologies To make up for the error of my ways I offer up my 1970 fretless P in (viewing only) tribute.... [/quote] No prob - and what a fabulous looking bass. Have you modified the controls?

I have had periodic GAS for these after being blown away by seeing both Alan Spenner and Percy Jones play these several times in gigs (Kokomo and Brand X) about 30+ yrs ago. Fabulous sound - mind you rather good players as well...........

Indeed

Glad you love it again Mcnach - they work really well on 2 band as well, I suspect possibly not least because of the mid range boost they give. I have them on my Bongo................it is not allowed out at public performances as I'm not insured for blowing walls out of venues!!! It is VERY powerful!!!

[quote name='Emanew' timestamp='1347478381' post='1801481'] First, i agree with you drTStingray about having this Jaco Pastorius Modern Bass DVD. As a suprising example, Jaco tells why he never praticed with a fretless. About this picture with teenager Jaco holding a brand new Jazz Bass : This JB is a 1966 instrument with pearloïd blocks, lilipop tuners and a specific sunburst (yellow very visible). It has a CBS era look. The two Jaco's most famous sunburst basses are : The Bass of Doom is a 1962 jazz Bass sunburst. Jaco made it a homemade lined fretless with clay dots. From Fender's site : " Nicknamed by Pastorius himself, the Bass of Doom was a stock 1962 Fender Jazz Bass, purchased at a pawnshop in the early 1970s. Pastorius originally removed the frets with a butter knife, filling the slots and missing chunks with "plastic wood" and covering the fingerboard with several coats of boat epoxy. This "customized" bass would be the only fretless instrument Pastorius would ever record with." His other sunburst is a 1960 fretted JB. He also removed pickguard and concentric Stackknobs ( replaced by a 3 knobs set giving more punch according to Jaco). The neck has also clay dots. This fretted Bass can be heard in "Portrait of Tracy", sublime harmonics. Both of these 2 basses can be seen in Joni Mitchell's Live "Shadows & Light" I hope it will help. [/quote] Thanks for this and I will check out the Joni Mitchell. I have the studio albums - they're fantastic! As for sounding like Jaco - well only he did that. However I do try to play some of his lines..........generally on Stingray H fretless or Stingray 5.

[quote name='walbassist' timestamp='1347516178' post='1801812'] I'm pretty sure the reputed bass was a Fender Bass V and not a fretless P. [/quote] I've always quite liked fretless Precisions - especially those early ones with maple boards. To clarify the Jamerson reference, it was the fretless Precision (ref is Standing in the Shadows of Motown - Life and Music of Legendary Bassist James Jamerson) - it refers to him having played the fretless on the Supremes 'Someday, We'll Be Together' - it's actually a quote from keyboard player Earl Van Dyke who said he almost threw it at the wall and said "don't you ever let me play this piece of sh*t again". Presumably didn't work how he wanted.

[quote name='cloudburst' timestamp='1347382025' post='1800041'] Being in the market for an unlined fretless, I toddled off to my local music store. "Fancy that - a fretless Precision", I thought, "that will be just the ticket". Precision my a*se. My intonation was (still) all over the place. [/quote] James Jamerson - a noted upright and fretted Precision bass player, is reputed to have thrown a fretless Precision at the wall of the Motown studio, after using it for a session. Not precise enough, perhaps

Good lord there's some very strange basses appearing in this thread - very small string gauge Spookily, I know two people with those Dean things in that colour as well. Cloudburst, is this the colour you meant? [attachment=117981:24042010424.jpg][attachment=117980:24042010423.jpg] Actually was called sunburst back when this bass was new (1993) - became honey burst a few years later. And not to be outdone by Dean............. [attachment=117982:24042010450.jpg]