Starting from scratch,,,,,,

[dougie]

Havnt been playing long but decided im gonna start from scratch,i can play bits of songs n stuff but think i should be better than i am,anyone any suggestions what i should be aiming to master first and set targets that would help me?

[XB26354]

The basic areas to master are (in general order of importance);
1) Timing and feel - without this you'll struggle as bass is fundamentally a rhythm instrument.
2) Ears - you need to be able to hear what music sounds like and see it on the bass.
3) Technique - if you can hear the idea but you can't play it, you'll have problems. Technique is purely a means to an end - to allow you to have the freedom to execute what you hear.
4) Theory and reading - not essential but very helpful both for self-education, and in the professional world of theatre, musical and the handful of pro reading gigs there are nowadays.

If you want to be versatile and play lots of styles then try to listen to as much of the music in those styles as possible. With most forms of music and bass playing the answers are in the music you listen to. If you're at all serious about points 3 and 4 then I'd recommend a decent teacher, to save potentially years of wasted effort learning, unlearning and relearning stuff. If you just want to rock out better then get in a decent band if possible and play with better musicians so you can learn from them.

Ultimately it's about what you really want from bass playing. You don't need all four to be successful, but without good timing and feel, and good ears, you may struggle to improve.
You mention targets - these are best worked out and set by a teacher as someone needs to see exactly how/what you play, what you're good at and what needs work before suggesting anything.

[GonzoBass]

"Have Fun" cannot be over rated either.

[dougie]

Cheers for the replies guys all good advice and yea thats why i persevere.....it is fun ,i love the Ibanez(cheers again Bassassin)...wife reckons im weird cos i keep lookin at it even when im not playing....its my new baby

Edited July 13, 2010 by dougie

[rjb]

XB26354 covered it really. I would also put timing and feel at the top of your list. Even a simple line can work really well if well timed.

Check this Talking Heads song. A brilliant bassline that consists of little more than 2 notes!

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1wg1DNHbNU&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1wg1DNHbNU...feature=related[/url]

P.S. Try the floating thumb technique if you haven't already.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPVMBPmrblU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPVMBPmrblU[/url]

Edited July 13, 2010 by rjb

[Bilbo]

[quote name='XB26354' post='892091' date='Jul 11 2010, 05:21 PM']The basic areas to master are (in general order of importance);
1) Timing and feel - without this you'll struggle as bass is fundamentally a rhythm instrument.
2) Ears - you need to be able to hear what music sounds like and see it on the bass.
3) Technique - if you can hear the idea but you can't play it, you'll have problems. Technique is purely a means to an end - to allow you to have the freedom to execute what you hear.
4) Theory and reading - not essential but very helpful both for self-education, and in the professional world of theatre, musical and the handful of pro reading gigs there are nowadays.[/quote]

I just wanted to challange XB26354's list, not because I disagree with it but because I think it is worth pointing out a couple of things.

Theory and reading music are flagged up here as a bit of an optional add on whilist technique, timing and feel and ears are given greater emphasis. The OP expressed a feeling that they wanted to go back to scratch because they could play 'bits of songs' etc. I think playing by ear and working on technique in isolation of theory (and, arguably, reading) has the potential to always leave the student frustrated at their limitations. A strong grounding in theory (supported by usable reading skills) will, in my view, provide a much deeper pool from which it draw inspiration. In short, learning theory and harmony will provide you will a lot of transferable information that learning 'Teen Town' by rote won't, however great the feel.

[quote name='XB26354' post='892091' date='Jul 11 2010, 05:21 PM']If you want to be versatile and play lots of styles then try to listen to as much of the music in those styles as possible. With most forms of music and bass playing the answers are in the music you listen to. If you're at all serious about points 3 and 4 then I'd recommend a decent teacher, to save potentially years of wasted effort learning, unlearning and relearning stuff. If you just want to rock out better then get in a decent band if possible and play with better musicians so you can learn from them.

Ultimately it's about what you really want from bass playing. You don't need all four to be successful, but without good timing and feel, and good ears, you may struggle to improve.
You mention targets - these are best worked out and set by a teacher as someone needs to see exactly how/what you play, what you're good at and what needs work before suggesting anything.[/quote]

A slightly confused message, if I may be so bold! If you develop a great feel, it will serve you well, I have no doubt, but, without understanding the mechanics of music, you will only be able to go so far with it and are likely to get frustrated in the longer term. Good ears are also, in my experience, another potential red herring. Those who explore the full range of scales, arpeggios and modes tend to have better ears than those that just listen to a lot of music.

My advice is simple: ground your studies in theory and reading whilst simultaneously working on timing, feel and developing good ears. If you focus on time, feel and ear training, you will develop no knowledge of theory or develop any reading skills. If you work on theory and reading, you can ALSO develop good timing, great feel and great ears AT THE SAME TIME.

Its a no brainer from where I am standing.

And as for fun, I have said here before that I think it is overated. Not because I don't have it (I am THRILLED to sit there with my new double bass, a bow and page 1 of F. Simandl's book - ask the wife.....), but because I think people think hedonism is the only kind of fun to he had. Work can be fun. Learning can be fun. 'Fun' for its own sake can get a little boring.

[XB26354]

I firmly believe that limitations are in people's heads. I had a long argument about reading and theory on here with someone long ago. In the end you can reach a destination by more than one route. You can choose to learn theory and read music or you can choose not to. Depending on your goals you can be successful either way. If you can't feel it and hear it as a part of you, the printed page will not help!

[bigjohn]

[quote name='XB26354' post='893768' date='Jul 13 2010, 02:38 PM']I firmly believe that limitations are in people's heads. I had a long argument about reading and theory on here with someone long ago. In the end you can reach a destination by more than one route. You can choose to learn theory and read music or you can choose not to. Depending on your goals you can be successful either way. If you can't feel it and hear it as a part of you, the printed page will not help![/quote]


I agree. I play by ear and by muscle memory on the fretboard. Once they're sorta aligned it's pretty much all ok. Then again I've been playing like that for nearly 20 years and it's taken a lot of practice and a lot of being crap at that for long periods. I played for years and years without thinking about what the different notes where and their relationships. It was all fretboard patterns and which number fret was the root. Or even just learning lines by rote.

It would have been much easier to learn some theory and apply it rather than the kind of sub-concious trial and error route I took.

Once I worked out which frets related to which note theory became less of a mystery. Low and behold the patterns I'd worked out were all there. I still can't read music though. I'd like to and have been meaning to for years and years but I spend my music time learning, writing and playing basslines, probably in a fashion that would be made easier if I could read / write. I'd imagine that reading music, without playing would be different experience than playing is, as you could read stuff you hadn't thought of or can't physically play and glean useful ideas from it in a way that listening to something is different than playing it.

Edited July 13, 2010 by bigjohn

[Bilbo]

[quote name='XB26354' post='893768' date='Jul 13 2010, 02:38 PM']In the end you can reach a destination by more than one route. You can choose to learn theory and read music or you can choose not to. Depending on your goals you can be successful either way.[/quote]

No disagreement there but I feel it is important to acknowledge that some routes are quicker than others, thereby making tinme available to make further journeys. If a learner can get as good as me in half the time, he will be better than me when he has spent as much time as me developing. Spending time finding solutions to problems already solved by others is inefficient.

Didn't someone once say 'I was self taught but had a lousy teacher'? If you are self taught, you are, by definition, being taught by someone who knows no more than you do How can that be the best route to go down? And that is what I feel we have to advocate for, the best way to learn. If the alternatives were better, I would embrace them. They are not. They are simply a means of justifying the routes already taken by those who have already travelled that road.

[quote name='XB26354' post='893768' date='Jul 13 2010, 02:38 PM']If you can't feel it and hear it as a part of you, the printed page will not help![/quote]

Absolutely - but don't let that put you off learning what the printed page has to offer.

[Marvin]

[quote name='dougie' post='892065' date='Jul 11 2010, 04:40 PM']Havnt been playing long but decided im gonna start from scratch,i can play bits of songs n stuff but think i should be better than i am,anyone any suggestions what i should be aiming to master first and set targets that would help me?[/quote]


[quote name='dougie' post='893573' date='Jul 13 2010, 11:44 AM']Cheers for the replies guys all good advice and yea thats why i persevere.....it is fun ,i love the Ibanez(cheers again Bassassin)...wife reckons im weird cos i keep lookin at it even when im not playing....its my new baby [/quote]

You sound in a very similar situation to me, especially staring at your bass . I've been playing for approx a year (I owned a bass in my late teens but realise now that I never really knew how to play it ) and also find it difficult to figure where I should be in terms of what I should know - I can barely play a song without fluffing it at some point .
Six months ago I decided to stop learning songs from tab sites because that seemed to be getting me no where, I was trying to play stuff that was simply beyond my level. Since then I've now gone back to basics, learning the notes on the fretboard and starting with simple theory and also attempting to start reading (reading is very difficult, it can take me half an hour to work out 4 bars sometimes, very embarrassing). I'm finding that by using and learning theory I am beginning to understand what I'm playing and that other elements of learning, ie rhythm, ears etc spring out of that. A lot depends on how much practice you put in of course as to where you should expect yourself to be after x amount of time. I've found that using theory and reading has made the other stuff easier to understand and make more sense.
I'm not saying I've improved massively but I do feel I'm making progress.

If none of that makes sense just remember what GonzoBass posted "Have fun"

[spiltmilk_2000]

I always find these discussions interesting and guess everyone is different... but here's my 2 pence...

I agree that the 4 points on the list in the 1st response are the main things you want to be thinking about but I dont see that you need to work through them in any particular order of priority. Surely, as Bilbo kind of suggests, the best way is to develop a practice regime which hits all those points simultaneously wherever possible?

For instance, you could learn some theory about triads, chords, inversions etc by perhaps working on playing walking bass lines. If you can find some notated exercises you will improve your reading skills and knowledge of the notes on the fretboard as you work them out. As you play through them you'll improve your ear as you'll start to recognise the sound of arpeggios of different kinds (major / minor / diminished / augmented) in all inversions... The notation might be written as straight quarter notes but with the instruction to swing so in order to make them sound musical or bluesy or jazzy or whatever you'll be developing your feel, technique and possibly hitting genres that might be new to you. To finish your practice session perhaps put the notation away use the new knowledge and skill you've developed to come up with your own lines that work on similar principles but in your own style therefore developing your composition and improvisation skills too... So in perhaps an hour you can give all those key skills a bit of a workout. You probably already do but may not consciously realise it!

I really think whatever you practice if you stop to really consider what you are practicing, how you are doing it and of course why, you will start to see many ways to get the most value out of everything you do.

I also think when you realise you have had a really productive session and made progress in lots of areas it cant fail to be fun!

Keep up the hard work!

[Faithless]

I'd say, set a few main goals, and work on them every day, at least a lil' bit on each, for example:

Technique/Time, Reading, Stylistics (jazz, reggae, disco, latin..), Theory, Improvisation.

It's waaaay better to have 'moderate' technique and improvisation skills, rather than flawless technique, and not being able to improvise properly at all. Or vice versa..

Having good basics of each (Tech/Improvisation/reading/etc), is essential, I think, and, well, you can always expand on each later on, right

Nevertheless, aside from my mumblings, if I were you, I'd get a teacher, tell him my goals (what do I want to achieve), so that he could guide you, how to get it going..


easy
faith

Edited July 15, 2010 by Faithless

[thepurpleblob]

I'm with Bilbo on this - well I think I am - but I'm going to be slightly less diplomatic. If you learn "by ear" and never know the name of a note or a scale, you are still actually *using* theory. You are just doing something that you don't understand very well (or at all). This to me is mental. Why on earth would you want to be engrossed in an activity where you don't understand the fundamentals that make it tick and the language to describe it? I think it's often a kind of macho thing - I don't need no stinkin' theory

If you want to learn the bass well - or any instrument. You need some physical ability and technique, you need to develop a reasonable 'ear', you need some understanding of rhythm, and you need to understand what the hell is going on (a.k.a. theory). They are all interwoven and facilitate each other. If you miss one aspect out you are crippling yourself. Yes you *can* get by but you are just making life hard for yourself for no obvious reason.

Please excuse rant!

[dougie]

Cheers guys,all good advice/points and also encouragement,got the first lesson on the 29th,been picking it up for about a couple hours daily and noticing small benefits,fingers are stronger and ive no fingerprints left barely,which works out nicely for the bank job im planning to finance my cabs etc,wife thinks im losing the plot a bit as apparently after a night out i got out of bed to use the bog and she found me sitting in the kitchen nude twanging away(on the bass that is)its been great fun esp since the weathers sh*tty and i dont get the bike out much.good helpful place this forum is....

[Geek99]

I'm restarting from scratch too, its not an easy road, but I think its more satisfying as I know I have fewer gaps and [i]will[/i] improve. My timing was [b]awful[/b]. I now listen more carefully to records and I "hear" new bass riffs (with the basic drum beats) from nowhere that I never would have thought of before.

I cant play them yet, but I'll get there.

[Wylie]

I came from guitar to learn the bass about two years ago ... and I didn't bring much with me. Very medium guitar player, but no trouble with timing or other mechanical things. Had been in choir for a couple of years a while back, so learning to read wasn't difficult; and reading just a bit has made quite a difference, especially as I've tried many bass books, and found them helpful--to a degree. But you can't ask a book questions, and I always seem to have a lot of them.

I'd also agree that having a teacher is important, and mine is a pro who can answer every question I have and save me -lots- of time I'd spend going around in circles if I were 'teaching' myself, which, as noted above, results in very slow learning. Trouble is, the teacher costs quite a bit, so lessons are spaced out. Still, I go in prepared and get the most out of the hour.

As far as music theory is concerned, I struggle. Music is largely numerical, and I am just about retarded where numbers are concerned (just ask my mother and former teachers). But learning the chords from the degrees of the scale, learning how to use chords properly, and how to find and exploit the key center for the song, all have helped immensely to open up a tune to new possibilities and get me out of the 1-3-5 rut.

Having fun? I have fun every time I pick up the bass, whether it's playing out or practice.

[Marvin]

I found a tutor, had two lessons so far. I was noodling around this afternoon and Mrs Marvin said she definitely noticed a difference (for the better). So lessons.

[JPS]

Interesting debate. My question is how do you get a 15 year old interested in learning and understanding theory and reading is they are not really motivated by these areas?

I'm helping a lad to learn the bass, he learns songs very quickly, enjoys playing with other musicans and has a great natural feel etc. However, he is a lot less interested in understanding scales, triads, learning to read etc - even when it's related to the songs he's playing. He just wants to learn new songs. Lovely lad, bright, but not academic, or good at working from books etc.

I don't want him to neglect these vital and transferable skills but am struggling to engage him with them so much and find a way that suits his learning style.

[TKenrick]

[quote name='JPS' post='912988' date='Aug 2 2010, 05:05 PM']My question is how do you get a 15 year old interested in learning and understanding theory and reading is they are not really motivated by these areas?[/quote]

I face this problem every week - I teach in a school and refuse to use TAB, so all my students read. I was lucky that most started as total beginners so hadn't got used to learning any other way, but even the ones that I had to wean off TAB eventually realised that there wasn't an alternative and got more engaged with reading.

The initial problem was I couldn't find lot of good sight reading material that was both relevant to the students and appropriate for their ability level, so I had to generate my own through transcribing lots of rock/pop stuff.

I try and put everything in context, so if I'm teaching about major triads i'll try and find some example of a bass line by a band that the student is interested in that contains that particular idea. Another way that seems to work for getting students engaged with the application of theory is to get them to create bass lines using theoretical concepts as a starting point, e.g. "Play a bass line using that works over Am7 using only chord tones" which (hopefully) helps them see how theory can be useful in making unfamiliar music more manageable.

[Doddy]

[quote name='JPS' post='912988' date='Aug 2 2010, 05:05 PM']Interesting debate. My question is how do you get a 15 year old interested in learning and understanding theory and reading is they are not really motivated by these areas?

I'm helping a lad to learn the bass, he learns songs very quickly, enjoys playing with other musicans and has a great natural feel etc. However, he is a lot less interested in understanding scales, triads, learning to read etc - even when it's related to the songs he's playing. He just wants to learn new songs. Lovely lad, bright, but not academic, or good at working from books etc.

I don't want him to neglect these vital and transferable skills but am struggling to engage him with them so much and find a way that suits his learning style.[/quote]

I've always been able to incorporate scales and arpeggios and things in with various songs if I have too,and they've always been able to
understand it. If I have to teach songs,which I try not to but will do occasionally,then I will always write it in standard notation,and again,
pretty much everyone has been able to pick up the basics of notes and rhythms.
If your student is serious about it,he will get motivated and want to understand more about how it all works.

[Wylie]

[quote name='JPS' post='912988' date='Aug 2 2010, 12:05 PM']Interesting debate.

I don't want him to neglect these vital and transferable skills but am struggling to engage him with them so much and find a way that suits his learning style.[/quote]

I was showing a young man some basics on the bass--and he seemed ready to learn, having just got a bass--but all he really wanted to know was a few licks. I was able to show him what he wanted, but it seemed like a waste of time for both of us.

One way to get your guy thinking is to find a tune he knows and likes (or likes but can't play) and teach him the basics of it. When he's got that, show him how much more he can do with what he knows in that song, for example by opening up chords to use the 6th or other added note, or using chords in a different way, by varying the 1-3-5 routine, perhaps, or using the relative minor. This might be easier to do with jazz than with pop (or especially rock). The alternative might be that he will just need to get tired of playing the same patterns and/or keys or licks and will come around when boredom sets in.

tg

[JPS]

I think I need to spend more time discussing what he is learning to play in terms of theory etc. That way he gets to learn the song, plus some transferable skills and ideas he can build upon at a later date. Thanks for the advice btw. Good stuff.

[Marvin]

[quote name='JPS' post='915379' date='Aug 4 2010, 09:17 PM']I think I need to spend more time discussing what he is learning to play in terms of theory etc. That way he gets to learn the song, plus some transferable skills and ideas he can build upon at a later date. Thanks for the advice btw. Good stuff.[/quote]
Does sound a little tricky. I've just started lessons, and so far my tutor is covering stuff I already know. However, I'm quite happy to go with it that way because I see every lesson as building from the previous, and I also have to practice for next lesson things that I would push to one side normally, in favour of learning some song.