pete.young Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 [quote name='Jase' post='98631' date='Dec 4 2007, 09:55 AM']... I'd rather rely on a drummer who has good natural timing,[/quote] Uh-oh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jase Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 for bilbo and..... for pete young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jase Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Actually bilbo you calling me a hippie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Why is a metronome seen as such a devil of evil by some? Ask not what your metronome can do for you; ask what you can do for your metronome! - I mean, learn to use it to your advantage. Don't let it control you, but assist in your playing/practicing whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 I'm having a bad day cos the BigBeefChief hates jazz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantdosleepy Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Virtuosos or people who are naturally gifted at something are rarely good at teaching that thing. I had a maths teacher who was a real maths whizz. He was a dreadful teacher because he couldn't understand why we didn't 'get it'. He couldn't understadn our troubles, our inability to grasp because it came so easily to him. Jeff Berlin's metronome advice strikes me as similar. Metronomes are not so important for people with naturaly good timing, or people who have a host of excellent drummers at their disposal. I don't think that Jeff has sat down with an absolute beginner with no appreciable talent for a long time. For those people a metronome (and I count drum machines in the same category - a computer device that makes a noise every n seconds against which a student can guage their timing) is invaluable. Just picked up their ffirst Squier P bass from cash converters and want to begin to start playing in time? How can a metronome be a bad thing? Last band I was in, the timing was pretty sketchy so we tried a couple of times putting the metronome through the PA so we could all hear it. The guitarist objected, saying that he played to the drummer, not the metro. If you can't follow a metro, you can't follow your drummer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jase Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 [quote name='dood' post='98720' date='Dec 4 2007, 12:07 PM']Why is a metronome seen as such a devil of evil by some? Ask not what your metronome can do for you; ask what you can do for your metronome! - I mean, learn to use it to your advantage. Don't let it control you, but assist in your playing/practicing whatever.[/quote] I don't consider them evil ( no idea what bilbo was getting at ) just I'm not much cop with them and most playing for me is visual/feel related. When I have attempted to use them it's all too regimental and "perfect".... too perfect for me. OK, OK. I'm a loose hippie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 [quote name='Jase' post='98769' date='Dec 4 2007, 01:00 PM']I don't consider them evil ( no idea what bilbo was getting at ) just I'm not much cop with them and most playing for me is visual/feel related. When I have attempted to use them it's all too regimental and "perfect".... too perfect for me. OK, OK. I'm a loose hippie [/quote] Not you personally Jase, but I'm surprised at the almost Marmite reaction to our little time keeping friends that I am getting off this thread and..well, Mr Berlin amongst others. p.s. i'm a hippy lol lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantdosleepy Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 I ate a hippy once. Tasted like hemp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jase Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 [quote name='dood' post='98779' date='Dec 4 2007, 01:10 PM']Not you personally Jase, but I'm surprised at the almost Marmite reaction to our little time keeping friends that I am getting off this thread and..well, Mr Berlin amongst others. p.s. i'm a hippy lol lol[/quote] No worries Dood, didn't take it personally just wanted to outline that I don't think they're a bad thing at all, just I'd rather not use them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 [quote name='Cantdosleepy' post='98787' date='Dec 4 2007, 01:21 PM']I ate a hippy once. Tasted like hemp.[/quote] I hope he took his boots off first. [quote name='Jase' post='98799' date='Dec 4 2007, 01:27 PM']No worries Dood, didn't take it personally just wanted to outline that I don't think they're a bad thing at all, just I'd rather not use them [/quote] Ok mate. all good here. ;o) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 I don't use one, but that's not because I think they're the instrument of the devil, I just never think to use one. Come to think of it, I never practice. Oops. I can see a major use for them, and that is if a band has no drummer. I've seen the consequence of a band of very inexperienced youths learning a set with no drummer and no metronome, and then recruiting a drummer (a very good one) and playing a gig shortly afterwards - the drummer had to try and keep time with what the band were doing as they were incapable of listening to her. However, with experienced musicians that should be less of a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnzy Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 how many of the players out there who dont use a metronome have played a gig where there is no kit drummer, and your are the time keeper? Relying on others is a lazy work ethic, why not be badass yourself? I guess theres not much chance of you guys playing a latin gig then? I do belive we all have an internal clock, our hearts! fast beats get us excited, slow beats calm us. its your heart doing this reaction, and learning to pace this is a skill. the question i want to throw down is do you count time when playing with others. tap your foot? say 1-e-and-a, 2-e-and-a etc to yourself? I used to, but i dont and its vastly improved my timing. Ron Carter has the same approach, "the timing is in the hands". i feel another can of worms opening! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogman Posted December 4, 2007 Author Share Posted December 4, 2007 [quote name='Nate' post='98625' date='Dec 4 2007, 09:33 AM']U mean Solar by Miles Davis?[/quote] Thats the one he quoted at bass day..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 [quote name='Johnzy' post='98839' date='Dec 4 2007, 02:11 PM']how many of the players out there who dont use a metronome have played a gig where there is no kit drummer, and your are the time keeper? Relying on others is a lazy work ethic, why not be badass yourself? I guess theres not much chance of you guys playing a latin gig then? I do belive we all have an internal clock, our hearts! fast beats get us excited, slow beats calm us. its your heart doing this reaction, and learning to pace this is a skill. the question i want to throw down is do you count time when playing with others. tap your foot? say 1-e-and-a, 2-e-and-a etc to yourself? I used to, but i dont and its vastly improved my timing. Ron Carter has the same approach, "the timing is in the hands". i feel another can of worms opening![/quote] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogman Posted December 4, 2007 Author Share Posted December 4, 2007 [quote name='dood' post='98779' date='Dec 4 2007, 01:10 PM']Not you personally Jase, but I'm surprised at the almost Marmite reaction to our little time keeping friends that I am getting off this thread and..well, Mr Berlin amongst others. p.s. i'm a hippy lol lol[/quote] Hi Mister Dood Thats what I was after a good debate keep us all muddling through and get the grey matter working. Hows the dust settled round yer transision to 7 strings and mad low notes? I am also a shuker boy..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 For me a metronome is boring to practice to. Much better to use a loop. Find one that's sympathetic to the piece you're practicing and play to that. For added versatility once you've got that down pick a loop with a completely different feel and paly the same piece to that instead. My last band used a huge amount of sequencing technology the augument our standard guitar/bass/drums/vocals line-up. Our drummer used headphones with a mix of click-track, loud and dead on the beat, plus all the other loops and sequenced parts quieter. He set the before/behind feel and we played to him. All the advantages of super-tight rhythms but with human feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jase Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 [quote name='Johnzy' post='98839' date='Dec 4 2007, 02:11 PM']how many of the players out there who dont use a metronome have played a gig where there is no kit drummer, and your are the time keeper? Relying on others is a lazy work ethic, why not be badass yourself? I guess theres not much chance of you guys playing a latin gig then? I do belive we all have an internal clock, our hearts! fast beats get us excited, slow beats calm us. its your heart doing this reaction, and learning to pace this is a skill. the question i want to throw down is do you count time when playing with others. tap your foot? say 1-e-and-a, 2-e-and-a etc to yourself? I used to, but i dont and its vastly improved my timing. Ron Carter has the same approach, "the timing is in the hands". i feel another can of worms opening![/quote] Count? Nooooo I'm rubbish at it, ask our guitarist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 [quote name='hogman' post='98854' date='Dec 4 2007, 02:28 PM']Hi Mister Dood Thats what I was after a good debate keep us all muddling through and get the grey matter working. Hows the dust settled round yer transision to 7 strings and mad low notes? I am also a shuker boy.....[/quote] Ah Yes! I have seen your Shuker! Nice!! As for the dust.. lol, I don't think it is put down long enough for dust *to* settle .. The 7er is great. Has produced some really nice effects on a new demo track the band have been recording. Its nice to have the range as well.. I can see alot of openings in the music for some 'north of the border' tinkling too. Will hopefully have some demo stuff out in 'the domain' soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantdosleepy Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 [quote name='dood' post='98802' date='Dec 4 2007, 01:31 PM']I hope he took his boots off first.[/quote] Like lobsters, the best way to prepare hippy is with the shell still on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernmeister Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 My perception of what Mr Berlin says is mainly for the shock factor. He likes to cause controversy by what he says. I think the reason behind this is that he likes people to think / explore what works for them best, as well as experimenting with unusual time signatures, the use of vibrato etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheBigBeefChief Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 I hate people like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 RE: Using a loop instead of metronome... A loop will have more subdivisions therefore giving you less responsibility of time keeping. The point of a metronome is that it only gives you quarter notes/half etc... so you have to work at it. I mentioned it before but check out Victor's time keeping exercise on bassplayer.tv it's the 4th part of "ten elements of music". It's seriously worth a watch. I've started doing it - it's pretty hard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcgiver69 Posted December 8, 2007 Share Posted December 8, 2007 [quote name='dood' post='98720' date='Dec 4 2007, 12:07 PM']Why is a metronome seen as such a devil of evil by some? Ask not what your metronome can do for you; ask what you can do for your metronome! - I mean, learn to use it to your advantage. Don't let it control you, but assist in your playing/practicing whatever.[/quote] Dood you just nailed it! and to your surprise that is exactly what Berlin is trying to say. I've read lots of post in different forums and to me seems like people don't stop to think very often and go ballistic when their beliefs are put into question (i.e. Talkbass, religion, etc.). I had a very long and winded chat with Mr. Berlin a couple of years ago and asked him about his views and his answer was: "Metronomes are meant to help you learn to subdivide notes, not keeping time!" and you know what? I agree. Another view is that you should learn the piece of music first and then practice it with a metronome afterwards, because a metronome can slow you down in the process of learning the lesson. I totally agree and if you don believe me just check with classical musicians, they can play without a metronome. I asked that to my cousin (She plays cello in my country's youth orchestra) and she absolutely can't that is why you see that penguin waving his/her mum. That takes me to a couple of months ago, I went to see a mates band playing and to my surprise the drummer was playing with headphones, after a while and noticing that after every song he would fiddle with some mysterious black box next to him, I can to the conclusion that he was playing to a click track. I brought the comment to my mate and after a good thought he asked him to stop using it, to make the story shorter I saw then last week and the dynamics was flowing like a river. I don't think metronomes are the worship of the devil but I think they should be used as a tool and not become a slave of them. That is basically what Jeff is trying to say and is exactly what he told me. He is a very old school guy and when he is teaching he just gives you input for you to go home and think about nothing more. Regarding his music, yes I agree that his latest material is not a great deal but to dismiss him is not only insulting but been a complete ignorant, just listen to his work with alan Holdsworth and Brufford and you'll find the real Jeff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted December 8, 2007 Share Posted December 8, 2007 (edited) the guy (Jeff) can play, doesn't mean everyone likes it but isn't that the same for everyone? I think Jaco overplayed in many scenarios but boy could he play and it was sometimes crushingly beautiful. Metronomes can be fun, I like what crazykiwi said about 'it doing for you'. See if you can make the metronome sound like its swinging or grooving, its fun! Time is a shared experience, the guys who feel it the same way you do are the guys you'll want to play with, of course really regular time is a standardised point and the worlds best players are all acutely aware of it and are pretty much reliable to set your watch by. As for playing a gig without kit I DO!!! 75% of the time and when it comes to regular time I'd like to think I do OK Victor Wooten has ridiculous time and it feels like your heart is going to burst to listen to it. Jimmy Johnson and Carlos Vega held grooves deeper than the mid Atlantic rift when playing with James Taylor, Steve Gadd should be re named Greenwich Gadd, Lenny White holds a groove that is funk heaven. To me they are all examples of great time and I reckon they could all make a metronome sound pretty groovy Jake Edited December 8, 2007 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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