An Ear For Music

[Oggy]

[center][u][b]Is it a gift or a curse?[/b][/u][/center]

Being able to ‘play by ear’ and ‘repetitive practice’ is one thing but it doesn’t come close to being able to pick up a sheet of music and read / play it.

I’ve never had any formal, or informal for that matter, musical training. I’ve always loved music and singing and found that I have an ‘ear’ and am able, with a bit of practice, to interpret what I hear onto a bass guitar – great, as far as it goes.

I’d love to be able to pick up a music sheet and play what I read.

What’s the best way of achieving this dream when the curse of ‘an ear for music’ is upon me? I’d really like to be able to read but every time I sit down and try using one of the many CD / book combinations available, I get bored after five mins and go off on a totally unrelated bass line that’s in my head.

Have any other Basschatters battled with the above? If you have managed to overcome the ‘ear thing’ please let me know how you did it.

Oggy

[Wil]

I had precisely the same problem when I was learning cello. I already had the cello suites I was reading in my memory, so before I knew it I was scanning the dots, not taking them in, and unconsciously playing using my ear and relative pitch. It was a constant frustration in that regard so I ended up knocking reading on the head. If I'd developed the reading before my ear I probably would have absorbed more, thinking about it.

[Bilbo]

It a question of mental discipline, oggy. A lot of learning to read is about learning to apply yourself to the discipline of looking at the page and playing what is written and not what you THINK is written or what you expect to have been written. The best thing to do is to find scores that are not based on anything you know but on pieces that are unfamiliar to you. You read them once and then put them aside before you learn them.

Playing a piece of music off the written score is a very different discipline to playing by ear but, nevertheless, you will use your ear whilst you are reading to tell you whether your playing of the chart is correct. THe converse of that, however, is that you will sometimes unwittingly trick yourself into believing that the right note, as written, is wrong because you can't 'hear' it as the composer did. Its tricky but it is just a part of the discippline of learning.

My advice to you is to look for some dots that you don't know the tunes off (there are loads here under the Theory and Technique thread). Make it so your natural ear can't help you.

[jakenewmanbass]

not a curse at all... when you add it to learning to read, which is a more technical skill, you have both, YAY winner....

Edited March 26, 2010 by jakesbass

[Doddy]

Both are important skills,and aren't mutually exclusive. There are gigs that require you
to read charts,and others where you have to busk. If you can do both you will get
more work.

The only way to improve your reading is to read. I know that sounds like a
lame answer but that's really it.
If,like wil said,you are playing the charts from memory and not actually reading
them anymore,move on to a new piece that you haven't learnt.
Even though you can learn to read at home,I would still recommend a few lessons
with someone,not neccessarily a bass player. It will give you a purpose to read and not
go off on a tangent,and they will point out the mistakes that you may skip over
otherwise.

[Oggy]

[b]Thanks Wil, Bilbo, Jakesbass and Doddy,[/b]

I think I’m getting the message that it’s all down to discipline and applying myself.

The idea of using unfamiliar music sounds good plus I like the idea of having some lessons. I’ll have a look at the ‘tutors’ section and see if I can find someone who will put up with me and get me focused.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a CD / book combination that really helps with the notation and theory side of things?

Thank you all, much appreciated.

Oggy

[Bilbo]

THey are all as good as each other really. Its the doing of the thing that is hard and takes focus. The concepts are quite simple..

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Encyclopedia-Reading-Rhythms-Workbook-Instruments/dp/0793573793/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269608981&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Encyclopedia-Readi...8981&sr=1-1[/url]

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Read-Music-Scratch-Neil-Sissons/dp/0851622682/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269609014&sr=1-3"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Read-Music-Scratch...9014&sr=1-3[/url]

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Learning-Read-Music-Mysterious-Symbols/dp/1845282787/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269609091&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Learning-Read-Musi...9091&sr=1-1[/url]

[The Funk]

An ear for music is a gift. I'm cursed without a good natural ear.

[Marvin]

[quote name='The Funk' post='787230' date='Mar 26 2010, 05:24 PM']An ear for music is a gift. I'm cursed without a good natural ear.[/quote]

I'm in your gang. My ears are 'not fit for purpose' in that respect.

[Marvin]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='786890' date='Mar 26 2010, 01:12 PM']THey are all as good as each other really. Its the doing of the thing that is hard and takes focus. [u][b]The concepts are quite simple..
[/b][/u][/quote]

I understand the symbols, well a lot of them . But am unable to apply this understanding, that will take a lot of time. I've just started learning to read the dots (and I mean just, like this week). The expectation for many I think is that it's just a five minute affair to be able to learn to read sheet music. However, you wouldn't expect to have a full conversation in a foreign language if you only started learning it a few days ago.

I've got a couple of books I am using (I simply can't fit in lessons, it's simply impossible, thankfully I know a few people who can read music and constantly ask them questions). Books though are a minefield, one persons meat is another's poison.

I've got Adrian Ashton's bass handbook which has got a section on reading music and some bits on theory.
Can't really remember what the other one is, it's red with a P bass on the front.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Marvin

[The Bass Doc]

Van Gogh had a good ear.......sorry, back to topic.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='The Funk' post='787230' date='Mar 26 2010, 05:24 PM']An ear for music is a gift. I'm cursed without a good natural ear.[/quote]

What about the other unnatural one?

[PedalB]

This is an interesting one ,and one I find quite topical at present. I play in a six piece covers band -the horn player the keyboard and I are all good readers ,the drummer , guitarist and singer do not read . As readers We we can just open the chart and play a new number,whereas it can take the others quite a while to pick up new numbers by whatever means they use , (usually sheer repetition ) . It can be quite frustrating for readers playing with non readers
often it will be 2-3 weeks before the non readers are sufficiently up to speed so We can meaningfully reherse a piece. If your serious about learning to read
then go for it big time , start with simple excersizes from a basic grade tutor- even open strings just to get your reading started ,as you progress you may need a little help learning to read more complex rythms- particularly if your heading towards jazz or swing , any competent musician should be able to give a hand (doesn't have to be a bass player). You should find that learning to read will actually improve your playing as your approach to your playing becomes more structured,and you can pick up new numbers much more quickly. Good luck

[essexbasscat]

Definately a gift, without doubt. My busking abilities have grown from it.

If you're doing the covers thing and you have a good ear, you will never have to read music at all to play year in, year out. What's more, if you are doing the covers thing with a good ear, you are streets ahead of anyone that needs to read to play.

Oh, with the blessing of a good ear, TAB is redundant. Never used it at all. Not once. Ever.

That said, the depth of knowledge and insight gained by learning to read music is invaluable, whichever instrument you learn to do it with.

Just my 2p's worth

T

Edited March 27, 2010 by essexbasscat

[Oggy]

[quote name='PedalB' post='787462' date='Mar 26 2010, 09:30 PM']This is an interesting one ,and one I find quite topical at present. I play in a six piece covers band -the horn player the keyboard and I are all good readers ,the drummer , guitarist and singer do not read . As readers We we can just open the chart and play a new number,whereas it can take the others quite a while to pick up new numbers by whatever means they use , (usually sheer repetition ) . It can be quite frustrating for readers playing with non readers
often it will be 2-3 weeks before the non readers are sufficiently up to speed so We can meaningfully reherse a piece. If your serious about learning to read
then go for it big time , start with simple excersizes from a basic grade tutor- even open strings just to get your reading started ,as you progress you may need a little help learning to read more complex rythms- particularly if your heading towards jazz or swing , any competent musician should be able to give a hand (doesn't have to be a bass player). You should find that learning to read will actually improve your playing as your approach to your playing becomes more structured,and you can pick up new numbers much more quickly. Good luck [/quote]

Hi PedalB,

The situation I'm in with the current band is a little different, we're a 3 piece Blues, Blues/Rock band (mostly variations on the good old 12 bar 3 chord format). The lead guitarist has been playing since God was a lad as has the drummer. The lead guitarist isn't a reader but given a few minutes will work out the chord progression and 'his own' interpretation of the lead breaks, just the way we like it, we don't copy we like our own stamp on what we play. The drummer can read and teaches a bit, he's played in all sorts of bands over many years, no need for a 'chart' for the Blues, Blue/Rock stuff we play - again he'll apply his own take and variations to get the desired result very quickly. I've only been playing bass for some 4 years having picked up an unwanted bass given to my son as a Christmas present "I'm not playing that, it hurts my fingers". I sang and played Blues Harp in bands since I was 14, again never having had any formal instruction. I found when I first picked up a bass that I could play a boogie riff and sing along with no effort, not much has changed since then. I'm charged with bass and vocal duties for the band so have to learn both the lyrics and the bass part, repetition and the Tascam BT is how I do this, I'll find the key that I can sing comfortably in then 'using my ears' work out the bass line and play it over and over until I don't have to think about it. I've been asked a few times to dep for other bands or join/play in bigger bands; I've always declined the offers due to a lack of confidence in my ability to 'instantly' busk a part or ask for a 'chart' and just play it, I hate not being good at what I'm doing and the thought of wasting other peoples time while they wait for me fills me with dread, you said yourself "[i]It can be quite frustrating for readers playing with non readers[/i]" I'd love to be able to accept dep. offers and play in other genres (soul / swing, even a little jazz or big band), by being able to read is the only way I can see that would allow me to do this.

I've been searching the net for courses and am investigating having some lessons locally. I found an American site [url="http://www.bassguitarsecrets.com"]Alex Bass Site[/url], I'm tempted to order the course, I'll have to contact them and ask about the 'reading' content before I part with any cash. I'd be grateful for your, or any other Basschatters, opinion on what they think of the offer - bearing in mind that what I'm really interested in being able to do is sight read not just play parrot fashion.

Thanks for your input.

Oggy

[lowdown]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='787679' date='Mar 27 2010, 09:59 AM']What's more, if you are doing the covers thing with a good ear, you are streets ahead of anyone that needs to read to play.[/quote]

Do both and you are Motorways ahead....


Garry

[Doddy]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='787679' date='Mar 27 2010, 09:59 AM']If you're doing the covers thing and you have a good ear, you will never have to read music at all to play year in, year out. What's more, if you are doing the covers thing with a good ear, you are streets ahead of anyone that needs to read to play.[/quote]

Depends.
One of the cover band that I do a lot of work with has everything
fully charted for every instrument. It means that deps can come in
easily and it saves so much rehearsing-any new songs are presented
as charts.You can move off the charts once you know them,but initially
they are great to have as it saved a lot of time.
Every other cover band is a case of listen and copy.So it's essential
that I can play by ear and read.

Incidentally,when you say that in a cover band you will be 'streets ahead'
of a reader,what are you refering to? The fact that the vast majority of
these players don't read and that pretty much all of them will require you
to learn by ear?

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='787679' date='Mar 27 2010, 09:59 AM']anyone that needs to read to play[/quote]
Do these people really exist? Serious question. I've never come across [i]anyone[/i] in the rock/pop/jazz world who [i]needed[/i] to read to play something.

[Doddy]

I think that is mostly confined to the orchestral world.
Although most classical soloist have played the piece so often you pretty
much never see them with the parts.

I have done am-dram's where some members of the band cannot busk or play
by ear,but these are usually people who are peripatetic teachers who only play out
once or twice a year,by doing these shows.

I'm not generalising or trying to offend anyone,but this is what I've noticed around my way.

[PedalB]

Hi Oggy,
I can see this thread running on and on , here are my thoughts for what there worth-

Firstly I have no experience of internet courses ,so can't really comment on there worth ,save to say you should be able to get your reading started with a basic level tutor book ,which I expect will be a good deal less expensive.

I have no wish to offend anyone here ,and what I'm about to say relates only to my own experience of about 40 years as a reading bass player. Most of the non readers I have played with are fine with the basic content ,of basic rock/blues songs ,where the trouble comes is in the intros , endings and other places the song may deviate from the standard , it often takes far too long to get that kind of detail correct . Also with reading the notes comes the ability to count and put those shot notes in exactly the right place ,not just somewhere near the right place .There are many artists (succesful ones ) who still can't count and have to play to click tracks. In my own band the non readers can get quite twitchy about introducing new numbers until they had sufficient time learn thier approximation of the chart , we then reherse the number until they can play it reasonably,and only then do we set about putting our own stamp on it.
In addition to bass guitar I also play Double Bass and Bass Trombone , for a number of years I was Bass Trombone in a large swing band , we mainly played original copy of the big band classics ,this is some of the most difficult music to read I have come across ,and takes musicians of a high calibre to make a reasonable job of it . In big band numbers improvised solos are called for ,(even occaisionally from a Bass Trombone) - however the chart will give the musician a chord sequence (usually complex chords) around wich the improvisation must be based,otherwise the soloist and accompanyment end up at loggerheads. This often occurs in amateur rock bands ,were some would be Jimmy Hendrix goes off like an unguided missile and the band is left holding the baby ,not even sure theyre playing the same number anymore.

An earlier commenter said very few players that he had come across could read , clearly He'd not come across any of the session men who produce a good deal of what we actually listen to these days.

Lastly learning to read will bring about a better understanding of musical theory ,chord structures and progressions , it will make your rehersal time far more productive ,and hopefully more pleasurable.

Cheers

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='PedalB' post='787933' date='Mar 27 2010, 03:36 PM']An earlier commenter said very few players that he had come across could read , clearly He'd not come across any of the session men who produce a good deal of what we actually listen to these days.[/quote]
Looking back, I can't find anyone who's said that, so I'm wondering if you've misunderstood my comment (which would be completely understandable, given that I didn't phrase it very clearly ):
[quote name='BottomEndian' post='787789' date='Mar 27 2010, 12:42 PM']Do these people really exist? Serious question. I've never come across [i]anyone[/i] in the rock/pop/jazz world who [i]needed[/i] to read to play something.[/quote]
Just to clarify... I meant that I've never come across anyone in the rock/pop/jazz world who was lost without a chart. They can [b]all[/b] busk/play by ear, but the ones that can read can [i]also[/i] read. Personally, I find it hard to play with people who don't have at least a basic grasp of rhythmic notation; it takes much longer to get complex rhythmic patterns across to them. If they can sight-read well, then I can stick a chart of fly-s**t down in front of them and we can get grooving straight away. Love it.

[Oggy]

[quote name='PedalB' post='787933' date='Mar 27 2010, 03:36 PM']Hi Oggy,
I can see this thread running on and on , here are my thoughts for what there worth-

Firstly I have no experience of internet courses ,so can't really comment on there worth ,save to say you should be able to get your reading started with a basic level tutor book ,which I expect will be a good deal less expensive.

I have no wish to offend anyone here ,and what I'm about to say relates only to my own experience of about 40 years as a reading bass player. Most of the non readers I have played with are fine with the basic content ,of basic rock/blues songs ,where the trouble comes is in the intros , endings and other places the song may deviate from the standard , it often takes far too long to get that kind of detail correct . Also with reading the notes comes the ability to count and put those shot notes in exactly the right place ,not just somewhere near the right place .There are many artists (succesful ones ) who still can't count and have to play to click tracks. In my own band the non readers can get quite twitchy about introducing new numbers until they had sufficient time learn thier approximation of the chart , we then reherse the number until they can play it reasonably,and only then do we set about putting our own stamp on it.
In addition to bass guitar I also play Double Bass and Bass Trombone , for a number of years I was Bass Trombone in a large swing band , we mainly played original copy of the big band classics ,this is some of the most difficult music to read I have come across ,and takes musicians of a high calibre to make a reasonable job of it . In big band numbers improvised solos are called for ,(even occaisionally from a Bass Trombone) - however the chart will give the musician a chord sequence (usually complex chords) around wich the improvisation must be based,otherwise the soloist and accompanyment end up at loggerheads. This often occurs in amateur rock bands ,were some would be Jimmy Hendrix goes off like an unguided missile and the band is left holding the baby ,not even sure theyre playing the same number anymore.

An earlier commenter said very few players that he had come across could read , clearly He'd not come across any of the session men who produce a good deal of what we actually listen to these days.

Lastly learning to read will bring about a better understanding of musical theory ,chord structures and progressions , it will make your rehersal time far more productive ,and hopefully more pleasurable.

Cheers [/quote]

Hi PedalB,

"[i]I have no wish to offend anyone here ,and what I'm about to say relates only to my own experience of about 40 years as a reading bass player[/i]"

You certainly aren't offending me in any way, I'm just glad that you're willing to offer advice and support. I'm aware of my limitations and trying to do something about it, so no offense taken here.

I get what you say when you talk about intros, endings and places where the number deviates from a set pattern. I think that when several people hear a passage they all hear it slightly differently; hence when interpreting it back as a group several slightly different interpretations battle it out - 'been there done that' and no doubt will visit it again on Monday at our next rehearsal. In our little 3 piece Blues band situation we can quickly resolve this and end up playing what we should, works fine until the number hasn't been played together for several weeks - what we hear in our heads and play are 'sometimes' not exactly what we've played when we 'worked it out'. It's not a major problem in a 3 piece Blues band where, for want of a better phrase, cock-up's can be quickly covered; my guess is that in a large group / band situation it could be a disaster.

So, back on thread: I'm grateful for the input I've had from all you Basschaters, If I want to improve my playing and play with confidence in 'unfamiliar' genres - I'm just going to have to learn to read.............................................[b]I'm frightened[/b] ..........................

Thanks to all.

Oggy

[Jerry_B]

Don't do it if you're truly frightened by the prospect. That'll just make things worse rather than be an improvement. If you can get the job done by playing by ear, stick with that. I personally think that if you gel well with the other band members, that's what makes it all work - then you can rely on intuition, feel and instinctive timing. Being able to read can also be a curse. I was once in a band with someone who could only learn by sight reading first, and was terrified of 'going off the beaten track' from whatever the music said. Horses for courses I guess

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='Jerry_B' post='788026' date='Mar 27 2010, 05:13 PM']Don't do it if you're truly frightened by the prospect. That'll just make things worse rather than be an improvement. If you can get the job done by playing by ear, stick with that. I personally think that if you gel well with the other band members, that's what makes it all work - then you can rely on intuition, feel and instinctive timing. Being able to read can also be a curse. I was once in a band with someone who could only learn by sight reading first, and was terrified of 'going off the beaten track' from whatever the music said. Horses for courses I guess [/quote]
That happens because that person never learned to play by ear, not because they learned to read. The two are not mutually exclusive- learning to read is not going to make you a worse "ear" player.

[Jerry_B]

I wasn't saying that they were mutually exclusive. I was just pointing out that the ability to read and that alone can come with it's own set of problems, for some people. The bloke in question didn't have an ear for things at all, but if he saw the music for any particular piece he could play it very well. I guess he was a stickler for structure, but I never tried to figure it out

Edited March 27, 2010 by Jerry_B