total confusion what to do!!!!

[mikeselfinflicted]

i have to compete with a pair of mesa dual rectifiers running 4x12 cabs

i'm currently running a MAG 600 ashdown through 2 4x10 MAG cabs and my amp is at full volume constantly!!!

i'm thinking of changing my whole rig to an ashdown ABM 8x10 and a AMB 500 evoIII

will i finally get vengance on those 6 string bandits or still struggle do you think?

Need more noise!!!

[ThomBassmonkey]

Your drummer must be built like Arnie if he can keep up with 2 4x12 mesas.

Tell your guitarists to turn down IMO. There's no need to run guitar amps at such a volume that a 600w 8x10 bass amp can't keep up.

I hope you're wearing ear protection. I know from several of my bands, Mesas are seriously loud and they only used 50w 1x12 combos. Unless you're playing stadiums, half stacks are overkill by a very long way.

Sounds very much like you need less noise IMO.

[mikeselfinflicted]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='785420' date='Mar 25 2010, 03:35 AM']Your drummer must be built like Arnie if he can keep up with 2 4x12 mesas.

Tell your guitarists to turn down IMO. There's no need to run guitar amps at such a volume that a 600w 8x10 bass amp can't keep up.

I hope you're wearing ear protection. I know from several of my bands, Mesas are seriously loud and they only used 50w 1x12 combos. Unless you're playing stadiums, half stacks are overkill by a very long way.

Sounds very much like you need less noise IMO.[/quote]

i've been going on at them for months to turn down and finally got somewhere last week!!!

our drummer was a professional session drummer for 15years and ex powerlifter so yeah arnie!!!

even at lower volume it still feels like its struggling i want something that i can set at 12o'clock an be

heard clearly hoping the ABM gear will do it

[JTUK]

Do you play gigs...? with those rigs I'd have thought you'd empty the place PDQ unless you are playing halls.

Ear protection for the band is one thing, what about the people who might turn up to see you..??
If a gtr turns up with 100watts of valve power, I am out of there..in 9 out of 10 cases..either playing or watching.

The same applies to the drums...if he hasn't got a snare for the room, then that will play into the gtrs hands...IF they notice.

Edited March 25, 2010 by JTUK

[Mr.T]

Something with more 'mids' will help you hear yourself, but....

I agree, get them to turn down!!!!

[ashevans09]

+1 to the turning down, but sure it isn't something that could be solved with EQing differently?

[Mr. Foxen]

Sounds like the two of them are having a volume war with each other, the drummer seem happy to keep up, so you probably won't get so far with the asking them to turn down. Your only option is to get awesome earplugs and fight fire with fire. Problem is deaf guitards turn up even more. You have a great advantage that guitar technology has moved much since the 60s, but bass has. A couple of big modern cabs (aguilar GS412 would be the reccomendation from experience, good luck finding some though), big and ported, maybe a Barefaced Big One + matching Big Sub, a kilowatt + power amp (Crown or QSC) and the ridiculous bargain RPM1 preamp in for sale section will sort you, same sort of Ashdown tone, enough volume to melt your guitards.

In fact, maybe go for biggest heaviest cabs you can (8x10s, Mesa) so they have to help move them, when they moan, say 'I only need these cause you won't turn down.'.

[chris_b]

I think I've heard you rehearsing! Is this band worth it?

If the answer is "No" or "Maybe", just walk away!! If it's "Yes" then you've got to fight fire etc... get yourself an SVT 2 or Classic and 810 rig or, my choice, a big foff Mesa Boogie stack. It's the only way. There are some very good Mesa bass cabs for sale here at the moment. Then get yourself some ER25 moulded plugs!!

Edited March 25, 2010 by chris_b

[Mr. Foxen]

I'd guess the stupid amount of power the guitarists have is cause the detune/use too much bottom anyway, so you should aim to carve some space below them. Either by having them cut some bottom, or using the fact that bass cabs can get much more bottom than guitar cabs. Big and ported is the way for this. The Classic Ampeg 8x10 stack is probably going to be covering very similar frequency range to detuned guitars and big mesa 4x12s.

[thodrik]

After listening to a few, I just concluded that Dual Recs tend to swamp over a lot of the bass frequencies by stealing a lot of space in the mix that would normally be taken up by the bass, which in turn can make it difficult to get the bass to cut through.

That said, a good amp even if only 300 watts, played through a decent 8x10 should cut through any live/practice situation.
The Ashdown ABM Head shouldn't really struggle, though I'm not keen on their cabs but that is just me.

Don't rule out a good 6x10 either, just about as loud as an 8x10 but a but more portable. Unless, you are playing large venues all the time, turning up with an 8x10 to smaller venues can make soundmen take an immediate dislike to you.

If you are tuning down and have space to transport them, you could buy a couple of 2x15s and find some space under the guitarists.

Its funny that these amps are designed for use in large arenas and stadiums, but the Roadrunner bands playing said arenas probably have empty cabs and are playing through rackmounted effects units sitting behind the stage.

Regardless, if those guitarists are turning up that loud, they had better be good!

[Prime_BASS]

2 half stacks is over kill. I took my two guitr half stacks an a 300w bass combo to a gig in a relatively small theatre and neither of the stacks where abouve 4 on the master volume. And the 2x10 bass combo was only around 4 or 5 on it's volume, plus a drummer.

I wouldn't waste your money on gear trying to be heard you may find it won't make a difference. You might want to trying experimenting with room acoustics and where you position your rig on relation to dead spots on stages, corners, curtains an in relationto your drummer and the guitar amps.

You should try and suggest playing at level that you can at least shout over. Also the few gigs I've done with monitors I've had to stand at least 10ft away from my amp to hear it.

You might want to get them to turn it down on the bass front and try and compensate your tone to increase in mids and low mods to try and cut through the mix

I would like to try, what I call a stage stereo effect, especially since you have 2 cabs of the same spec, you should place each cab either side of the drummer. So you would have

Guitar-bass-drums-bass-guitar. It's only an idea but hopefully the cabs will have a better spread.
I'm no scientist, but you should try every option you have with current gear you have before spending any more money.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' post='785909' date='Mar 25 2010, 03:10 PM']2 half stacks is over kill. I took my two guitr half stacks an a 300w bass combo to a gig in a relatively small theatre and neither of the stacks where abouve 4 on the master volume. And the 2x10 bass combo was only around 4 or 5 on it's volume, plus a drummer.

I wouldn't waste your money on gear trying to be heard you may find it won't make a difference. You might want to trying experimenting with room acoustics and where you position your rig on relation to dead spots on stages, corners, curtains an in relationto your drummer and the guitar amps.

You should try and suggest playing at level that you can at least shout over. Also the few gigs I've done with monitors I've had to stand at least 10ft away from my amp to hear it.

You might want to get them to turn it down on the bass front and try and compensate your tone to increase in mids and low mods to try and cut through the mix

I would like to try, what I call a stage stereo effect, especially since you have 2 cabs of the same spec, you should place each cab either side of the drummer. So you would have

Guitar-bass-drums-bass-guitar. It's only an idea but hopefully the cabs will have a better spread.
I'm no scientist, but you should try every option you have with current gear you have before spending any more money.[/quote]

Pretty much fully disagree with all of this post. The right gear will help you cut through, maybe not the amount of money you spend, but the right choice.

Don't put a cab either side of the drummer, I've done it with a pair of 8x10s and it cause very obvious comb filtering, no bass in some places, step foward and it it's nuts, was actually kind of useful for my purpose, but not good sound. Plus as they are 4x10s, they'll end up low and you'll miss out on higher frequencies also.

Mids and low mids will help cut through as they are 'louder' to the ear, but since that is detuned guitar territory and it is a volume competition, you are picking the wrong battle.

[Mog]

your drummer is a session player with 15 years experience?? ya think he'd have some idea of dynamics. you should be pushing enough air with your current set up. try tweaking thr eq.

[The Funk]

Well, upping the power rating can't really improve anything on its own. It's more about finding cabs with the right kind of frequency response and a head with the right kind of EQ. I dislike Ashdown on both counts for my purposes. Sounds like it's not right for you either.

A different workaround solution would be for you to buy a good DI and an amp stand and just leave it at that. From the sounds of things your guitards and dummer don't listen to what you're doing anyway. Go straight into the PA with your DI and use your amp stand to angle the amp up at your head so that you can hear yourself. If the others can't hear you they'll have to turn down.

[Prime_BASS]

The mag600 and that abm500 are the same wattage, unless ashdown site is wrong, although the abm 8x10 is rated 1200w at 4ohm, what kind of volume difference would that make?

Still just becuase the guitarist amps are loud doesn't mean they should be. Have you played with them at lower levels, what do you do for practices? I would imagine lugging my own half stack or a full bass stack would get tiresome after a while.

But still, getting them to turn down would be better. Some guitarist don't care as long as they can hear them selves, getting our lead guitarist in my band to not boost his signal during a solo was a ball ache, he just moaned about not hearing himself, even with a dedicated guitar moniter directed at him, in the end we won but the sound guy had to boost the volume of his moniter.

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

If you have a frontman(who does not play another instrument),get him to listen to your
first song and adjust level accordingly.This should be done all the time.

Before that, have a group chat beforehand, stating your desire to have a band that plays lower
and in time. May be an idea t o ask the friendly person who books your rehearsal room to listen to one song if they're not busy.

Don't think you'll get many bookings in pubs unless you sort this out.

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='mikeselfinflicted' post='785412' date='Mar 25 2010, 02:28 AM']i'm thinking of changing my whole rig to an ashdown ABM 8x10 and a AMB 500 evoIII[/quote]


I've always liked the Ashdown sound in a fairly sparse mix but the way the ABM heads are voiced isn't ideal for cutting through a wall of bass heavy guitar noise and changing from 2 4x10s to an 8x10 is a sideways move.

[mikeselfinflicted]

thanks for all the replies and advice!!!

i'm starting to think it might be a case of shi**y cabs and a bad eq
not bad to my ears but in a full band situation so tweaking must commence

we have a very dynamic sound live and generally play in quite large venues plus
with the tuning being G# C# G# C# F#
2 mesas are gonna destroy me in the low down eq with the speakers
they put in the mag cabs!!! £300 bass cab against £1200 guitar cab no contest imho!!!

I'm getting a Tech 21 landmark 300 in a week or so and in hopefully a
month or 2 an Aguilar gs4x12 if that doesn't work i'll just disconnect a couple of their valves!!!!!

just hope the tech21 sounds good thru the ashdowns till i can get the gs4x12

any opinions on the tech21??

its not costing me anything at the minute but if i like it i will buy it off the guy sound clips
sound good though on the website.

[Stylon Pilson]

Being a bass player in such a situation must surely be like being a bass player in a band with 3 bass players. Even if you were audible, what could you possibly contribute to the sound? Anything melodic that you do will be frequency-stomped by the guitarists. Anything rhythmic that you do will be frequency-stomped and rhythm-stomped by the guitarists. I hope that I'm mistaken.

S.P.

[mikeselfinflicted]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='787212' date='Mar 26 2010, 05:15 PM']Being a bass player in such a situation must surely be like being a bass player in a band with 3 bass players. Even if you were audible, what could you possibly contribute to the sound? Anything melodic that you do will be frequency-stomped by the guitarists. Anything rhythmic that you do will be frequency-stomped and rhythm-stomped by the guitarists. I hope that I'm mistaken.

S.P.[/quote]

well its not too bad because the basslines don't always follow the guitars
i definately help to fill the sound out,
i guess i'm after more clarity an tonal definition instead of outright power and devastation...although that would be good too!!!!

Edited March 26, 2010 by mikeselfinflicted

[Mog]

I gig with a lot of bands who use the same tuning. The best way to get heard in that situation , IMO, is to have as much punch as possible. This will have to be a combination of serious eq work and most importantly proper string tension. If you are tuning down a standard set, they'll sound floppy and despite what colouration you add to the signal, your tone will suffer. I've also found that too much volume coming off stage at low frequencies is nothing short of tedious. FOH should be able to clean up the signal and send it out a well defined sound. If I was in your situation I'd get the guitards to drop a cab each. Its total overkill. If they want to run the two cabs, switch the heads to 50 watts. Unless ye're are playing in very large venues full stacks are pointless. Eg, when Dream Theater played in Vicar street a few years back J.P used 3 Mesa Heads into a 4x12. J.M used a single 4x10. Plenty loud!!

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='mikeselfinflicted' post='787198' date='Mar 26 2010, 05:02 PM']i'm starting to think it might be a case of shi**y cabs and a bad eq
not bad to my ears but in a full band situation so tweaking must commence

I'm getting a Tech 21 landmark 300 in a week or so and in hopefully a
month or 2 an Aguilar gs4x12 if that doesn't work i'll just disconnect a couple of their valves!!!!!

just hope the tech21 sounds good thru the ashdowns till i can get the gs4x12

any opinions on the tech21??[/quote]

It seems to me that you may just end up paying out a lot of money and not really gain a lot by doing this.

While the Ashdown MAGs are budget cabs and not known for their mid presence the MAG600 is a decent enough head and I can't see that swapping one 600w head for another will be much of an improvement. I think yo should be looking at the speakers first

What is going to get you heard against those Boogies is more pronounced mids rather than just absolute volume. The voicing of the cabs is going to be critical and the ultimate mid-hump monster is the Schroeder 1210 or 1212. I would look for one of these used. It'll cost you £300-400 and if it's no improvement you can get your money back by selling in on. They're 4 ohms so you'll get the full 575w out of your MAG. It may not be the perfect solution but it could give you some idea of the direction you need to go in.

Alternatively the Barefaced Big One as already mentioned has a dedicated mid driver and properly designed crossover so will be much stronger in the mids than your Ashdowns.

EDIT: Just re-read your last post and you are getting a 300watt head!! This will be a step back IMO

Edited March 26, 2010 by AndyMartin

[Mr. Foxen]

Don't get a landmark head, get a Sansamp and a PA power amp, does same stuff (maybe the rack version) and unlimited power. The GS412 can take a kilowatt head, so might as well do it.

[chris_b]

I think you need to upgrade but I’d do it one piece at a time. My advice is to consider the Boogie 410 in the for sale section. It's a fantastic cab, it's loud, it's punchy, it’s as cheap as chips, the price has just been reduced and it will sound way better than both your current cabs.

[Prime_BASS]

As a guitarist by nature I don't see any practicke use by dropping to G#, what guitars are they using, eq settings and possibly strings, I've found on any standard guitar anything below drop D on medium guage strings is like playing on spaghetti. I barely see a point of going below B tuning.

I'm still in the 'keep your gear and spend no money' side of things. It seems a tad unfair that you have to spend some wonga becuase of their poor manners.

What kind of music are you playing?
I'd compare your self to other bands and then see what the bassist is doing in those to punch through.

Other than that +1 on mids though.