Building a 2X10, advice would be appreciated

[waynepunkdude]

Total noob at this type of thing.

What materials will I need?

Tools?

Plans?

[Mr. Foxen]

Got WinISD figured? That's a handy tool

Materials depend on what you want form the cab. Thick plywood means less fiddly bracing and such, but heavy. Guessing with a 2x10 it is not such a huge issue, so thick ply an d crude construction is happy enough. Decent void free ply is ideal. MDF works ok but might as well do a proper job and use ply for toughness, and a better strength/weight ratio.

BFM for plans if you want a fancy cab, but I'd guess you are a trad cab sort of guy. Box of a known internal volume with each dimension different and a correctly tuned port (see WinISD) is all you need, ince you have speakers decided on.

I think cutting the round hole for the speakers is the most challenging bit, but t-nuts can be fiddly.

[Dubs]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='760113' date='Feb 28 2010, 08:22 PM']Total noob at this type of thing.

What materials will I need?

Tools?

Plans?[/quote]

Wood
Hammer
Gaffer Tape
Speakers

Done!

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='760123' date='Feb 28 2010, 08:33 PM']Got WinISD figured? That's a handy tool

Materials depend on what you want form the cab. Thick plywood means less fiddly bracing and such, but heavy. Guessing with a 2x10 it is not such a huge issue, so thick ply an d crude construction is happy enough. Decent void free ply is ideal. MDF works ok but might as well do a proper job and use ply for toughness, and a better strength/weight ratio.

BFM for plans if you want a fancy cab, but I'd guess you are a trad cab sort of guy. Box of a known internal volume with each dimension different and a correctly tuned port (see WinISD) is all you need, ince you have speakers decided on.

I think cutting the round hole for the speakers is the most challenging bit, but t-nuts can be fiddly.[/quote]


What is WinISD?

The speakers will be these.

[url="http://www.lean-business.co.uk/eshop/celestion-bn10300s-4ohm-neo-magnet-bass-guitar-speaker-10-p-327.html"]http://www.lean-business.co.uk/eshop/celes...r-10-p-327.html[/url]

Cheers for the help Oli.

[jezzaboy]

Wayne, if you buy this months copy of guitar and bass magazine (the one with the Namm report on the cover), they tell you how to build a guitar cab. I imagine that you would be able to use the same basic principles for a bass cab but I imagine you would have to port the back or something. I haven`t read the article yet but it looks quite good.

I`ll shut up now as I am rapidly running out of sense.

Jez

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='760130' date='Feb 28 2010, 08:41 PM']What is WinISD?

The speakers will be these.

[url="http://www.lean-business.co.uk/eshop/celestion-bn10300s-4ohm-neo-magnet-bass-guitar-speaker-10-p-327.html"]http://www.lean-business.co.uk/eshop/celes...r-10-p-327.html[/url]

Cheers for the help Oli.[/quote]

It take unintelligible speaker specs and turns them into an unintelligible graph. However, if you take a cabinet you like the sound of with known speakers and measurements, you can adjust your cabinet size and ports to voice your cab similarly. It's a cab simulator so you have some idea what size of box and holes in it you will need.

[url="http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisdpro"]Download here[/url]

That speaker is not pre-programmed in it, so you'll have to take the Celestion specs and key them, I might do it later, pm me an email and I'll send you a file, if its like the Celestion RIM was going to use, their spec round the figures dubiously and WinISD disagrees.

Edit: just keyed the basic spec, the rounding did disagree since WinISD uses to 4 decimal points, I fiddled until I found the one that rounded to same as [url="http://professional.celestion.com/bass/pdf/BN10-300S4.pdf"]Celestion's spec[/url].

Edited February 28, 2010 by Mr. Foxen

[Pentode]

[quote name='Dubs' post='760129' date='Feb 28 2010, 08:37 PM']Wood
Hammer
Gaffer Tape
Speakers

Done! [/quote]

You forgot Elastoplast and in my case, tourniquet.

[Mr. Foxen]

Vented cab in red (let WinISD predict the ideal volume), sealed of same size in yellow, same size cab with a Delta12LF in it, because I'm guessing that is pretty much what an Aguilar GS112 is, and I've been using the 412 as my basis for comparison.

The 2mm Xmax says the aren't great for bottom, but you can get loud middlyness from them.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='760162' date='Feb 28 2010, 09:15 PM']

Vented cab in red (let WinISD predict the ideal volume), sealed of same size in yellow, same size cab with a Delta12LF in it, because I'm guessing that is pretty much what an Aguilar GS112 is, and I've been using the 412 as my basis for comparison.

The 2mm Xmax says the aren't great for bottom, but you can get loud middlyness from them.[/quote]


Cheers mate, I'm a little unsure what all of that means if I'm honest.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='760175' date='Feb 28 2010, 09:27 PM']Cheers mate, I'm a little unsure what all of that means if I'm honest.[/quote]

I'm mostly messing with WinISD for learning purposes so I might be wrong on some of this, hoping one of the knowledgables will come and argue with me so I can pick their brains, so don't take this as concrete fact.

Basically, the horizontal axis is the frequency, and the vertical is the volume, this is all at 1 watt input power, as that is the standard.

[url="http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html"]You can find the notes frequencies correspond to here[/url]

Bottom E is about 41hz, but most of the sound is in the harmonics which are all higher than this, so even if you totally cut out everything below 40hz it would still sound like a bass. The 82hz harmonic is probably most important for the sound of a low E and the sealed cab (yellow) is about 8db down there, so is going to sound gutless, if you've played with a graphic eq, imagine turning bottom slider or two down most of the way, and that is where your cab starts off. Sealed cab is not great for these speakers unless you make it very big.

The ported cab (red) is only just starting to roll off about there, so should be a happy cab, but if you want dub bottom or stupid detuning, its going to get unhappy, because those speakers will hit their limit fairly early due to their low xmax (this isn't shown of the graph, but WinISD has the option).

The grey line is pretty far superior to the others, which is why the Aguilars are such beasty cabs, although the bump you see (which is not unlikely due to my lack of understanding and could be false) is in about the frequency range that will give you beefy sound.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='760175' date='Feb 28 2010, 04:27 PM']Cheers mate, I'm a little unsure what all of that means if I'm honest.[/quote]
And that's why you should not consider designing your own cab, or even choosing your own drivers for that matter. It's far more involved than it appears. For a beginner this is probably your best route, albeit a long one:
[url="http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/Fearful"]http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/Fearful[/url]

Edited March 1, 2010 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='760355' date='Mar 1 2010, 01:14 AM']And that's why you should not consider designing your own cab, or even choosing your own drivers for that matter. It's far more involved than it appears. For a beginner this is probably your best route, albeit a long one:
[url="http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/Fearful"]http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/Fearful[/url][/quote]

Fairly sure Wayne is going to be the next Alex Claber, so be afraid of the competition.

The 5 or 6 fearful threads are fairly interesting reading. They do end up looking a lot like 'The Big One'.

Critical analysis of post please?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='760362' date='Feb 28 2010, 08:22 PM']Fairly sure Wayne is going to be the next Alex Claber, so be afraid of the competition.

The 5 or 6 fearful threads are fairly interesting reading. They do end up looking a lot like 'The Big One'.

Critical analysis of post please?[/quote]The resemblance between Greenboy's and Alex's cabs is far more than cosmetic. Both buck the standards of cabs from the usual suspects in that they adhere to rather than ignore valid acoustical engineering tenets.

[stevie]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='760130' date='Feb 28 2010, 08:41 PM']The speakers will be these.

[url="http://www.lean-business.co.uk/eshop/celestion-bn10300s-4ohm-neo-magnet-bass-guitar-speaker-10-p-327.html"]http://www.lean-business.co.uk/eshop/celes...r-10-p-327.html[/url][/quote]
It's been mentioned quite a few times on here that the Celestion Orange series is not very good because of (excursion-) limited output. Unless you are looking for an overdriven guitar type sound (which you might be), I'd avoid them.

You really need to define your design objectives before you can do anything. For example, do you want a lightweight cab, do you want a compact cab, do you want a state-of-the-art cab, do you want deep bass, do you want something cheap, etc., etc. When you build your own cabs, almost anything is possible. The Greenboy designs are fine, but I don't think they don't include a 2x10.

As far as tools are concerned, the minimum you will need is a jigsaw, power drill and a screwdriver - assuming your wood supplier will cut the panels to size for you. A router, clamps, set square and other stuff are all useful if you have them, but probably not necessary for a one-off.

Edited March 1, 2010 by stevie

[Mr.T]

If (like me) you don't understand the graphs, try this route....

Decide on what you want to achieve in terms of weight and sound, then take a look at the Emminence website.
They have designs for their drivers, with box and port sizes.
This should hopefully take the guesswork out of it???

I am just finishing building my first cab..... an Aggie GS112 clone using the Emminence data.

Cutting the hole for the driver was straightforward, if you have a half-decent jigsaw and a pair of compasses.

p.s. I am not suggesting that Emminence are any better or worse than any other drivers.

[stevie]

You could also consider the option of taking an existing cab and pimping it. You can upgrade just about any commercial cab by fitting better drivers, bracing it, fitting damping, Speakons, etc. It saves you all the hassle of building a cab and sourcing the bits.
I did it with this Laney 2 x 10, bought on Basschat, which I have fitted out with a pair of second-hand Volt drivers. I had to enlarge the holes for the drivers, brace it and fit a couple of rear ports. Despite its compact size, I would expect it to spank most 2 x 10s on the market.

[Mr.T]

[quote name='stevie' post='760504' date='Mar 1 2010, 10:34 AM']You could also consider the option of taking an existing cab and pimping it. You can upgrade just about any commercial cab by fitting better drivers, bracing it, fitting damping, Speakons, etc. It saves you all the hassle of building a cab and sourcing the bits.
I did it with this Laney 2 x 10, bought on Basschat, which I have fitted out with a pair of second-hand Volt drivers. I had to enlarge the holes for the drivers, brace it and fit a couple of rear ports. Despite its compact size, I would expect it to spank most 2 x 10s on the market.
[/quote]

Not wishing to hi-jack this thread, but.....

How did you work out the port sizes?
I am asking this as someone who doesn't know the difference between a cab tuned to 40hz or 50hz.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='760509' date='Mar 1 2010, 10:45 AM']Not wishing to hi-jack this thread, but.....

How did you work out the port sizes?
I am asking this as someone who doesn't know the difference between a cab tuned to 40hz or 50hz. [/quote]

That is one of the functions of WinISD. Enter your drivers and box volume, and play about until the graph is fairly flat. The port tuning puts a hump around that frequency, you aim to have the hump where the box naturally drops off, to extend the flat part somewhat. Basically, the longer the port, the lower the tuning, so if you end up with a boomy box because the tuning hump is on top of an existing hump, extend the port, can experiment with a telescopic port.

[stevie]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='760509' date='Mar 1 2010, 10:45 AM']Not wishing to hi-jack this thread, but.....

How did you work out the port sizes?
I am asking this as someone who doesn't know the difference between a cab tuned to 40hz or 50hz. [/quote]
First, you have to decide what size of port to use. Choosing a port that's too small will result in 'chuffing', compression and distortion. Choosing one that's too big will result in an excessively long port (or too high a tuning frequency) and resonances within the port itself. For this box, I decided on two 3" ports (which I happened to have already). Sizing a port can be a bit of a juggling act with a compact, high powered speaker and flared ports can help reduce the problems of chuffing and compression.

Tuning a bass guitar cab is not like tuning a hi-fi speaker; it's largely a matter of ensuring that the driver doesn't run out of excursion when you play the lowest notes. You can model this in most speaker design programs (I don't know about WinSD). The tuning frequency for a 4-string bass usually ends up between 45 and 50 Hz. If you tune to 45 Hz, you will generally be pretty close.

In this case, the cabinet size was a given, as were the parameters of the drivers. As I had already figured out that two 3" ports would be acceptable, all I had to do was to work out the length of the ports in my modeling software.

Edited March 1, 2010 by stevie

[Musicman20]

[quote name='jmsjabb' post='760498' date='Mar 1 2010, 10:28 AM']Wow, if we all had your encouragement in life, no one would learn anything for them selves or have fun in learning. What a pessimistic post
Go for it, as said, find a cab you like. Measure it and build it. B&Q will even cut the wood if needed. Arm your self with some gorilla glue, and have fun!
Sometimes science is not the important thing. Sense of achievement and pride counts. If it sounds good to you at the end of the day, job WELL done. If not, change something and try that.[/quote]

Big +1.

Let anyone try it out, if it doesnt work, they will learn and probably enjoy having a shot at it.

I understand there is a vast amount of technical information to digest, but then again, I mix drivers and couldnt give two hoots as it sounds fantastic, (and YES, thats after testing these 'perfect science' cabinets).

[JTUK]

I think you'll be hitting £200 quite easily on materials and that is without what charge you put on your time, to end up with,
a box that will have little resale value and a chance that it will sound decent.

As an exercise and a project, then go for it, but personally I wouldn't bother.

[Hamster]

I wasted a lot of wood and time creating from scratch my own cab builds. Having learnt the lesson I can wholeheartedly recommend Bill's easy to follow plans and proven designs - [url="http://www.billfitzmaurice.info/Jack.html"]http://www.billfitzmaurice.info/Jack.html[/url]

[stevie]

[quote name='JTUK' post='760635' date='Mar 1 2010, 12:34 PM']I think you'll be hitting £200 quite easily on materials and that is without what charge you put on your time, to end up with,
a box that will have little resale value and a chance that it will sound decent.

As an exercise and a project, then go for it, but personally I wouldn't bother.[/quote]
On the other hand, £200 spent on materials could get you a cab that will perform as well as, if not better than, £500 or £600 shop-bought cabs. You're not going to get your money back, that's true, but neither are going to take a huge depreciation hit.

It all depends on whether you want to put a value on your leisure time. Understandably, most people prefer to buy something ready made.

Edited March 1, 2010 by stevie

[Musicman20]

If you decide you dont want to build, and still want a quality sounding 2x10 with a small footprint, id certainly suggest a TC RS210. There is huge thread on talkbass about the quality of tone even compared to really really high end cabinets.

You are looking at £370 for the cab....ish.

[Pentode]

[quote name='Hamster' post='760642' date='Mar 1 2010, 12:42 PM']I wasted a lot of wood and time creating from scratch my own cab builds. Having learnt the lesson I can wholeheartedly recommend Bill's easy to follow plans and proven designs - [url="http://www.billfitzmaurice.info/Jack.html"]http://www.billfitzmaurice.info/Jack.html[/url][/quote]

+1

I've built some cracking stuff to Bills' designs.