Tonewoods

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1330620428' post='1560553']

As to maple vs rosewood, they both vary greatly in density, since there are loads of species, and variation according to position in a tree. Rosewood boards are going to be laminated into a maple neck whereas a maple board might not be, additionally a maple board will be lacquered and a rosewood one probably won't be. But Rickenbackers use a lacquered dark woo board, might be rosewood or related, and are known for bright tone, so maybe you are entirely looking at the wrong factors.
[/quote]

Regarding variation according to position in tree etc, I've worked with lots of rosewood of varying species, and lots of different batches of maple (not as many different species) and would say that the rosewood is generally always stiffer and heavier, suggesting it's more dense. However, I take your point taht it's a natural substance there will be variation - I've handled boards of tulipwood from the same batch where one is at least twice as heavy as the next!
Your points about lamination and laquer are very good ones, and are not factors I had considered. Ta.

[sprocket123]

Here s something of interest to you guys : http://www.csudh.edu/oliver/chemdata/woods.htm

& I saw something about tonewoods in Youtube , but don t remember where

[fingerz]

Ok, so I'm a bit of an expert on this, or at least a geek fascinated with it.

Firstly, one persons 'great' tone is another persons 'bad' tone so it's hard to talk about what is 'best'. And although each type of wood has it's characteristics, there are exceptions to that rule. Wood is never going to be an exact science.. All woods have a tone and resonate, and every piece will be slightly different.

In my experience, the wood resonance (tone), is REALLY important. What a bass lacks in natural tone, NO preamp or pick up will compensate for. So if you except that the woods you choose are likely to sound WITHIN a certain tone window (luthiers know about what sounds like what so we don't need to go there), how can you determine the outcome? Answer, you can't be sure. A bass tone is a combination of all parts, if the body and neck/laminates/tops speak to you then great. For me, it always seems to be the combination of these parts and how they collectively resonate together that is where the magic is. In that respect, you can't be sure of any tone until it's built and done. Which is why I have always been happiest with basses that I have been able to play first rather than custom builds. But I feel that it's the combination of parts that sometimes work, sometimes don't.

It depends on the sound too, I think on a really modern tone it's easier to depend on a preamp to generate a sound. This is all in my experience, and I'm sure some of you don't agree, but I do have experience in this side of things. It's a really interesting and baffling subject!

[4 Strings]

For an acoustic instrument this may be true. I wonder if the plastic casing on a Fender Rhodes has any effect. Or the mahogany case for a Hammond.

[sprocket123]

lol , nice one 4 strings .

[fingerz]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1332285754' post='1586274']
For an acoustic instrument this may be true. I wonder if the plastic casing on a Fender Rhodes has any effect. Or the mahogany case for a Hammond.
[/quote]

Ha, ok, well those parts are not transferring any tone directly out of the instrument.

I mean, I've played many active basses, same preamp, pickups and woods but sound different. This is my point here..

[4 Strings]

Do they not? Aren't the mechanism that produce and 'pickup' sound mounted on frames etc.

What would be more prominent in the sound of a Hammond, the wood casing of the organ or the Leslie? Would the wood of the bass cab casing an effect on the sound, perhaps more than that of the wood supporting the pickup on the bass? Do the materials chosen in our cabs have a more pronounced contribution to our sound than the batch of wood from the world market that was used for our Fender? Do we unwittingly rely on people like Alex Claber much more than we think we rely on Leo Fender for our sound?

[sprocket123]

Some other stuff of interest by Mike Tobias of MTD , [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1TlbV6pSbE&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL9C2F0242ACF6BEBA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1TlbV6pSbE&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL9C2F0242ACF6BEBA[/url]

[Killerfridge]

[quote name='fingerz' timestamp='1332548285' post='1590060']
Ha, ok, well those parts are not transferring any tone directly out of the instrument.

I mean, I've played many active basses, same preamp, pickups and woods but sound different. This is my point here..
[/quote]

And many people swear they have been cured by homeopathy. Anecdotes do not equal data.

[flyingguitar]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' timestamp='1264235236' post='721918']
I've seen too many great sounding instruments made out of plywood, old doors and workbenches and other things to think the wood is important at all. Of course it's hard to charge $4000 for a Jazz bass copy made from MDF.
[/quote]

Valid point!

[4 Strings]

[quote name='flyingguitar' timestamp='1341214827' post='1715098']
Valid point!
[/quote]

Depends what it says on the transfer

[lettsguitars]

Any chance the mods can block anyone who mentions the word tonewood from basschat in the future? Or maybe dish out hefty fines for offenders.
Wood is good, concrete is f***ing stupid. The whole argument/debate is f***ing stupid. Believe what you want and be happy.

[charic]

[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1341398597' post='1718215']
Any chance the mods can block anyone who mentions the word tonewood from basschat in the future? Or maybe dish out hefty fines for offenders.
Wood is good, concrete is f***ing stupid. The whole argument/debate is f***ing stupid. Believe what you want and be happy.
[/quote]

No, I refuse.

[4 Strings]

Thanks.

[attachment=112168:Curbow-4-MIC_hz.png]

Edited July 4, 2012 by 4 Strings

[BassTractor]

[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1341398597' post='1718215']
Wood is good, concrete is f***ing stupid. The whole argument/debate is f***ing stupid. Believe what you want and be happy.
[/quote]

Are you being serious? I for one find the thread fascinating.
IMNSHO, wood can be good, but it can be stupid as well.
Concrete can never be stupid, as it provides a virtually non-vibrating environment and thus by definition is interesting, if only for purposes of comparison or research.
The whole argument/debate is not stupid, but very interesting IMNSHO. The stupid enters it when people believe on authority or prejudice instead of hard evidence.
I haven't yet read the whole thread, but up to now I find I've read many interesting views inbetween the prejudiced ones, so I'd like this thread to go on please.

[muttley]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1341664647' post='1722446']
tonewax. ???
[/quote]

snakewax more like...

[fingerz]

Some aimless hate in some comments is not productive. Yes if a bass made from an old door works for you then play it and be happy, that's exactly the point. Im a bit offended by the use of the word anecdote vs data. My main bass is my cheapest bass, there's no illusion or agenda in my mind.

[kurosawa]

Santana was hunting tone with his ears when he came to PRS (before he was "discovered," by Santana, or rather his guitar playing fans) and stopped, having found what he was seeking. So maybe both men know something about wood and tone.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjHpVGMaleM[/media]

Edited October 26, 2012 by kurosawa

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='kurosawa' timestamp='1351247813' post='1849161']
Santana was hunting tone with his ears when he came to PRS (before he was "discovered," by Santana, or rather his guitar playing fans) and stopped, having found what he was seeking. So maybe both men know something about wood and tone.
[/quote]

interesting video. Most of it was about how the wood works mechanically rather than audibly though....

[kurosawa]

I have seen the 2x4 vs. alder "test." And what struck me right off was that the sound was compressed (the added tracks didn't get in the way). Yeah I ID'd the wood correctly by ear, but it's stupid to think all there is to sound is the filtration provided by a particular plank. A note has an envelope. It has a certain kind of attack, that is, it responds eagerly, or tops out. It has a swell, a duration, and decay. Many times I've seen it said "the difference in the wood is in the playing." Exactly. Playing is dynamic. Squishing all the expression out of music doesn't leave the most interesting components, especially not the ones we need to play dynamically and musically.

Also, there are problem woods. I almost bought a body because of its weight. The maker offered aspen or Western red cedar, over a century old, capped with walnut or spalted maple. But having had problems with poplar (a poplar body I once owned gave every neck put on it horrible dead spots), I shied off aspen, which is related. Then when I learned that Western red cypress not only has a limited fundamental, but hits a ceiling where no matter how much harder you play, it doesn't get any louder, I found it misfit my style. I like a bass capable of letting me spit notes off the strings like little sling stones.

I think whatever note I'm playing has to be the most important thing on the planet for me. The bass is a voice. I'm saying something. And so I end up finding most of the wood I like is alder. It doesn't limit me in any way. It produces an interesting sound, an involving sound. I can just let that one note ring out. I don't feel any need to ornament it, noodle around or anything, because it speaks so well. It has something to say of interest to my ear. I am not drawn to the mahoganies and their sound-alikes, nor maple. But according to sales, they are someone else's perfect voice. I have played compelling instruments made of hard ash and of walnut. Black korina is nice. I am about to try my first swamp ash body.

I have always been drawn to maple necks, whatever the fretboard material, above mahogany. I have one all-wenge neck that is very authoritative, perhaps not as versatile as maple. I am very tempted to try it on hard ash with a single-coil P pickup, or maybe a pair of wide-aperture SGDs. It would probably be a one-trick pony, but what a trick!

[kurosawa]

Well I think that vid is ALL about the sound. And there is a mechanics of sound. Also, I read on some forum that luthiers don't do tap tones to predict musicality of wood. These guys must have missed that Very Important Armchair Opinion.

[Mr. Foxen]

I've seen a build diary from a luthier who checks wood with tuning forks, to find a good spot for the bridge.

[Kiwi]

I've recently come into a significant quantity of crab apple from a 100 year old tree that was blown over in a recent storm. At some point I'll be using it in a bass if I can get it to dry slower. I've got enough for a body core and loads of tops. Research suggests it might be like mahogany but a little brighter.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1351364248' post='1850612']
I've recently come into a significant quantity of crab apple from a 100 year old tree that was blown over in a recent storm. At some point I'll be using it in a bass if I can get it to dry slower. I've got enough for a body core and loads of tops. Research suggests it might be like mahogany but a little brighter.
[/quote]

You can only tell if it is brighter if you can tell if it is brighter.

To make a bass (or basses) from that tree would be a fantastic thing to do! Please accept all encouragement to do so! Why not get in touch with harleyheath and the like to offer advice etc (I'm sure you'll know what to do.)

[Kiwi]

The problem with crab apple is that it dries too fast and cracks. So instead of letting it dry naturally in a matter of weeks, I've had to cover it in homebrewed anchorseal (paraffin wax and turps) to let it dry out over a year or two. However an offcut that has dried out has a lovely mellow tap tone to it despite being cracked to blazes. I'm really looking forward to using the properly dried stuff in a body because I think it'll sound pretty good. I've been in contact with Jon Shuker about advice .