New TC Stacatto 51 Amp, nice vid.

[phsycoandy]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wfBB9xAjVA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wfBB9xAjVA[/url]

worth a watch

[secretsquirrel]

Picked up my Staccato '51 yesterday and sold my RH450 head last night.

I always loved the RH450 and until this it was the best amp I'd ever owned.

However this is a bit "snappier" and suits my playing style better although I'm no Rocco Prestia just a massive fan!

It's definately not just an eq preset as it responds diferently with attack. The red case looks really cool.

I'm giging it tonight so will let you know how it goes.

[crez5150]

I must say after trying this unit..... I'm really tempted.....

[Musicman20]

If they make a higher wattage version i'd be interested.

The TC I tested was excellent, very well built. I just want a few extra watts.

[Russell]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='615905' date='Oct 3 2009, 06:06 PM']If they make a higher wattage version i'd be interested.

The TC I tested was excellent, very well built. I just want a few extra watts.[/quote]


How many more watts are you after? You could also link 2 heads if you wanted to.

Cheers,

Steve

Edited October 3, 2009 by Russell

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Russell' post='616140' date='Oct 3 2009, 11:58 PM']How many more watts are you after? You could also link 2 heads if you wanted to.

Cheers,

Steve[/quote]

I think the amps are very well made, and provide a lot of options.

The only thing is, for the price, (and I realise it has a lot built into it) 450Watts for micro head now is near the lower end.

The Little Mark 3 might be much simpler but it puts out a healthy wattage, and is rated at 500W.

Shuttle 6.0 is sorta 600W.....

Shuttle 9.0 is 900W....

Dont get me wrong, Id like a TC Amp, Id just like one thats say 600-700W.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Musicman20

[Musky]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='616143' date='Oct 4 2009, 12:14 AM']I think the amps are very well made, and provide a lot of options.

The only thing is, for the price, (and I realise it has a lot built into it) 450Watts for micro head now is near the lower end.

The Little Mark 3 might be much simpler but it puts out a healthy wattage, and is rated at 500W.

Shuttle 6.0 is sorta 600W.....

Shuttle 9.0 is 900W....

Dont get me wrong, Id like a TC Amp, Id just like one thats say 600-700W.

[/quote]

The volume difference between 450W and 600W is at the margins of audibility in a real world situation.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Musky' post='616159' date='Oct 4 2009, 01:03 AM']The volume difference between 450W and 600W is at the margins of audibility in a real world situation. [/quote]

Oh no I agree and depending on the amp they can sound much louder even if they have less wattage.

It more the headroom Id want on a solid state micro, thats all.

[whynot]

I think visually the colour is spot on for this design.
I've been using a RH450 for 4-5 months now and very happy with it but would love to hear what they have done soundwise with this version.
Not sure they can justify the extra £200 price tag, presuming it's in full production.

TC are not daft and appear to be very proactive with this bass range so I would think there will be a more powerful addition out sometime in the future, although the 450 is well loud enough for my needs.

Edited October 4, 2009 by whynot

[andy67]

This gear really interests me!

here's another cracking link:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-9-EDCH8oU&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-9-EDCH8oU...feature=related[/url]

andy

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Musky' post='616159' date='Oct 4 2009, 01:03 AM']The volume difference between 450W and 600W is at the margins of audibility in a real world situation. [/quote]

And without knowing the THD at those power ratings the 450W amp could actually have more power than the 600W amp and thus more headroom. (And that's not a hypothetical 'might occasionally happen' suggestion, that's one of the common factors that makes some amps sound loud for their wattage and some sound quiet).

Alex

[Legion]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='616453' date='Oct 4 2009, 01:01 PM']And without knowing the THD at those power ratings the 450W amp could actually have more power than the 600W amp and thus more headroom. (And that's not a hypothetical 'might occasionally happen' suggestion, that's one of the common factors that makes some amps sound loud for their wattage and some sound quiet).

Alex[/quote]

I'd like to chime in that the RH450's 450W's sound a hell of a lot louder than my AG500's 500W's did. Goes to show you cant judge these things on the figures (unless you have ALL the figures, and Alex's brain)

J

[BB2000]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='616453' date='Oct 4 2009, 01:01 PM']And without knowing the THD at those power ratings the 450W amp could actually have more power than the 600W amp and thus more headroom. (And that's not a hypothetical 'might occasionally happen' suggestion, that's one of the common factors that makes some amps sound loud for their wattage and some sound quiet).

Alex[/quote]

Spot on. I bought one of the first production units of the Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0. It sounded a bit rough and unpleasant on my ears at full volume, so bypassed the compressor and attempted to measure the THD on an audio precision analyser. I can't remember the figures, but it quickly shot up above about 40% volume to above 50% THD. Personally I'd class it as a 240W amplifier. I'm not knocking Genz though, I think they have to do this because their competition play the same numbers game.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='BB2000' post='616565' date='Oct 4 2009, 03:46 PM']Spot on. I bought one of the first production units of the Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0. It sounded a bit rough and unpleasant on my ears at full volume, so bypassed the compressor and attempted to measure the THD on an audio precision analyser. I can't remember the figures, but it quickly shot up above about 40% volume to above 50% THD. Personally I'd class it as a 240W amplifier. I'm not knocking Genz though, I think they have to do this because their competition play the same numbers game.[/quote]

Did you measure the output voltage at the same time?

Alex

[GreeneKing]

It'll be interesting to know what the entirety of the tweaks are on this version.

With RP's 1st:

Tone Control
Bass Center Freq: 125Hz (range: 71-1.12kHz, Gain: +15/-24dB)

Low Mid Center Freq: 224Hz (range: 100-1.6kHz, Gain: +15/-15dB)

High Mid Center Freq: 630Hz (range: 200-3.25kHz, Gain: +15/-15dB)

Treble Center Freq: 6.3kHz (range: 4kHz – 10kHz, Gain: +12/-24dB)

RH450


Tone control
Bass Center Freq: 280Hz (range: 71-1120Hz, Gain: +15/-24dB)

Low Mid Center Freq: 400Hz (range: 100-1600Hz, Gain: +15/-24dB)

High Mid Center Freq: 800Hz (range: 200-3150Hz, Gain: +15/-24dB)

Treble Center Freq: 1600Hz (range: 400-6300Hz, Gain: +12/-24dB)

Interesting.

So how does in sound compared to the RH450?

Peter

Edited October 4, 2009 by GreeneKing

[MythSte]

If i've intereperated that correctly, does that mean that treble is semi paremetric on these heads? Nice.

[BB2000]

The AP analysers pretty much automate this time of measurement. For example you can set it to do a THD measurement vs power out (for a specified load) at a specified spot frequency, start the measurement and it'll stimulate the amplifier, measure it's output, and spit out a table of THD values. Tests done by me would have been at 1KHz into a nominally purely resistive load.

I'll just restate that I'm not knocking Genz, they actually produce some of the better amps out there. Measurements I've made on some other 'boutique' bass amps have been truly shocking.

[quote name='alexclaber' post='616588' date='Oct 4 2009, 04:39 PM']Did you measure the output voltage at the same time?

Alex[/quote]

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='MythSte' post='616668' date='Oct 4 2009, 05:47 PM']If i've intereperated that correctly, does that mean that treble is semi paremetric on these heads? Nice.[/quote]

Yep, all 4 EQ's are semi parametric.

A brief explanation of THD, AP etc for myself would help here guys

Edited October 4, 2009 by GreeneKing

[alexclaber]

[quote name='BB2000' post='616819' date='Oct 4 2009, 08:28 PM']The AP analysers pretty much automate this time of measurement. For example you can set it to do a THD measurement vs power out (for a specified load) at a specified spot frequency, start the measurement and it'll stimulate the amplifier, measure it's output, and spit out a table of THD values. Tests done by me would have been at 1KHz into a nominally purely resistive load.[/quote]

I was just puzzled that you referred to reaching 40% on the master volume causing THD to rapidly increase, and then your 240W figure suggests you took the position of this control and multiplied it by the claimed 600W rating to state the amp produces 240W. Or did you measure the amp into a 4 ohm load and find that THD increased rapidly once the RMS output voltage reached 31V?

Alex

P.S. THD is Total Harmonic Distortion. Pro power amps tend to have their output power rated at <0.1% THD. Many bass amps use 1% or even 5% THD.

P.P.S. However you can't measure the output power of an amp accurately unless you can defeat any limiter circuitry.

[BB2000]

[quote]A brief explanation of THD, AP etc for myself would help here guys[/quote]

AP is Audio Precision, a company who pretty much have captured the market in audio amplifier test equipment.


[quote post='617148' date='Oct 5 2009, 09:59 AM']I was just puzzled that you referred to reaching 40% on the master volume causing THD to rapidly increase, and then your 240W figure suggests you took the position of this control and multiplied it by the claimed 600W rating to state the amp produces 240W. Or did you measure the amp into a 4 ohm load and find that THD increased rapidly once the RMS output voltage reached 31V?[/quote]

I meant 40% of rated power. Given that all harmonic content of the amplifier output is measured in a THD test the output power is therefore also known (assuming the test load is known).

[quote]Many bass amps use 1% or even 5% THD.[/quote]


I'd say 10% plus is more realistic. The largest difference is that most modern instrument amps can only deliver their rated power for only a short period of time, their continuous output rating is normally a lot less that their rated power (for example the shuttle 6 can only deliver about 70W continuous into 4 ohm). Pro amps will have sufficient cooling so that it's normally safe to load them for extended periods. It's only in the last 20 years that this music programme rating nonsense crept in.

[quote]P.P.S. However you can't measure the output power of an amp accurately unless you can defeat any limiter circuitry.[/quote]

I guess you mean you wouldn't normally measure the THD of an amplifier without disabling any limiter circuitry.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='BB2000' post='617732' date='Oct 5 2009, 06:03 PM']I guess you mean you wouldn't normally measure the THD of an amplifier without disabling any limiter circuitry.[/quote]

Well I meant that you can't measure the power of an amp (for which you have to measure the increasing THD with voltage and thus specify the power delivered at the maximum voltage where the amp meets your required maximum THD) without disabling the limiter because on some amps the limiter kicks in a lot sooner than you'd expect. For instance according to Genz the limiter on the Shuttles starts acting at ~2dB below max power, which equates to ~380W into 4 ohms.

What clouds the issue even further is that if two amps are producing the same power output the one with higher THD will sound louder...

Alex

[BB2000]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='617746' date='Oct 5 2009, 06:14 PM']Well I meant that you can't measure the power of an amp (for which you have to measure the increasing THD with voltage and thus specify the power delivered at the maximum voltage where the amp meets your required maximum THD) without disabling the limiter because on some amps the limiter kicks in a lot sooner than you'd expect. For instance according to Genz the limiter on the Shuttles starts acting at ~2dB below max power, which equates to ~380W into 4 ohms.[/quote]

Well, it depends what you're trying to do. If you're measuring the THD of a power amp in a bass head, obviously you would bypass the preamp stage and feed your input directly to the power amp, this would give correct THD measurement whether the power amp stage incorporated a limiter or not. If you wanted the THD of the complete head you'd input your test signal to the preamp, and if it had a fixed limiter (like many of the new amps do), you would still have correct THD measurements.

[quote]What clouds the issue even further is that if two amps are producing the same power output the one with higher THD will sound louder...[/quote]

That's a bit of a generalization - it does depend on the nature of the signal distortion rather that on THD (which by itself doesn't tell much about how the signal is distorted).