Lightweight Sub-Woofers

[Downunderwonder]

38 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

To me, and it is my opinion only, the scarcity of Rolls products in the UK, price and the fact that it needs an external PSU, would rule this out for me , especially as it is many times more expensive. 

I got mine from Parts Express in the US. Any little 12V PSU will do. From memory around 50 GBP.

[Happy Jack]

As of right now (and I suspect it will be gone by lunchtime):

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/236374724127

[Phil Starr]

13 hours ago, synthaside said:

It Sounds like I should probably pick up a used crossover ...  perhaps you could point me in the direction of something suitable , ideally smaller rather than bigger ....  I really was looking to avoid ending up hauling a rack around  with the next pickup being "proper"  Active Tops 
 

Yeah I think planning your next System is a great idea. It is much better to know where you are going as it informs your purchases rather than rushing into cheap fixes that only last a few weeks before needing the next bodge. I've spent a lot of money early on making do when a more measured approach would have saved a bit of money in the long run. I learned loads by making mistakes though  That's why I applaud your current solution. It lets you get on with playing music whilst you plan something better. I used to have a Stagepas 300 and that and the 500 aren't really good for a band, they just struggle for volume. the 400/600 were much better. They are good for monitors though as the sound is pretty good with no nasties to cause feedback issues. You don't need them to go so loud as monitors.

 

If you do go for a crossover I wouldn't worry too much about the brand, Behringer are the most widely available https://www.thomann.co.uk/behringer_cx2310_v2.htm

 but there are lots of other OEM products that are essentially similar. Used ones are curently £35-50 on Marketplace but at £77 a new one might be worthwhile depending upon how tight funds are. You'll get £35-50 if you upgrade so it'll cost you £30ish for indefinite 'hire'.

 

If you want small then there is this. It's programmable and 24db/octave filters are available on all four channels. You've also got limiting so you could program in some protection for your tops. Harder to sell on when you've finished with it though as it is a more techie solution

 

https://www.thomann.co.uk/the_t.racks_dsp_4x4_mini.htm

 

[synthaside]

1 hour ago, Happy Jack said:

As of right now (and I suspect it will be gone by lunchtime):

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/236374724127

Now who would go and do that ay ...

Cough ....  this is exactly what i was looking for as i want to avoid Rack gear and  it looks simply enough conceptually would you look at that its fallen off ebay ... 

Now ... I guess i have to decide what  at frequency im crossing .... perhaps because its running to a dedicated  bass amp rather than a sub it should shoot a little higher to 100 /120 rather than 80 ?

Edited Thursday at 09:27 by synthaside

[Al Krow]

4 hours ago, synthaside said:

Now who would go and do that ay ...

Cough ....  this is exactly what i was looking for as i want to avoid Rack gear and  it looks simply enough conceptually would you look at that its fallen off ebay ... 

Now ... I guess i have to decide what  at frequency im crossing .... perhaps because its running to a dedicated  bass amp rather than a sub it should shoot a little higher to 100 /120 rather than 80 ?

 

Nice one! 

 

Well given that one of the reasons for having a sub is to take load off the tops, be interested if there's any reason not to cross over at say 150Hz, and you can get some bass as well as your kick handled by the combo?

 

Wished I'd used this crossover set up when I had a MB Alain Caron, which has excellent speaker excursion for a bass combo, with my RCF 310A tops. And ideally combined with the IEMs my crew are using today to avoid needing monitors. 

 

Tbf probably would have beem no better than the pair of RCF 932As which we're using currently and overall a comparable outlay.

[Chienmortbb]

On 09/10/2025 at 10:21, synthaside said:

Now who would go and do that ay ...

Cough ....  this is exactly what i was looking for as i want to avoid Rack gear and  it looks simply enough conceptually would you look at that its fallen off ebay ... 

Now ... I guess i have to decide what  at frequency im crossing .... perhaps because its running to a dedicated  bass amp rather than a sub it should shoot a little higher to 100 /120 rather than 80 ?

I would usually set the crossover frequency to 100 with a standard sub. It’s a good starting point. 
 

As far as the Thomann crossover does, I have the one with the power amps in but the software is the same. It looks a bit old fashioned, think Win 3 meets Win 95 but it is clear and easy to use. 

[Al Krow]

18 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

I would usually set the crossover frequency to 100 with a standard sub. It’s a good starting point. 
 

As far as the Thomann crossover does, I have the one with the power amps in but the software is the same. It looks a bit old fashioned, think Win 3 meets Win 95 but it is clear and easy to use. 

 

Totally agree with a standard sub, which often don't go much higher anyway.

 

But was wondering whether it might make sense to flex this to make more use of the bass combo's ability to handle higher frequencies?

Edited Saturday at 13:15 by Al Krow

[Chienmortbb]

I would not do that, let the PA tops do what they are designed for and cut off as though it was a normal sub. The important thing is to be able to invert  the sub output to match the tops. The Thomann DSP crossover allows this. Of course it also allows you to experiment. 

[Al Krow]

18 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

I would not do that, let the PA tops do what they are designed for and cut off as though it was a normal sub. The important thing is to be able to invert  the sub output to match the tops. The Thomann DSP crossover allows this. Of course it also allows you to experiment. 

 

It's an interesting one, 'cos there's an argument that tops are completely fine with going down to 60Hz? So why cross at 100Hz?

 

I'm definitely no expert here, but if a key purpose is to relieve the tops of their low end lows to focus on non-bass frequencies, then crossing over at 150Hz (because the bass combo can easily handle up to this) would be more beneficial than 100Hz. But, as I say, I'm no expert!

[synthaside]

Considering our tops are probably the weakest part of the chain I want to take as much load from them as i can ,there's also a little bit of element of encouragement to  me making this setup  work because the singer went out and bought the PA , and hauls it to gigs  ( a singer has arrived with more than a microphone)  Making them /it work until the bands takings can fund something cool new and shiny feels better to me even if i could just splurge on something myself i'm already hauling more than enough. 

She couldn't have foreseen that the rest of the band would start the journey towards ampless  ... A 400 watt Yammy Stagepass a good enough vocal only PA when you arent pumping all and sundry into it.

[JPJ]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

It's an interesting one, 'cos there's an argument that tops are completely fine with going down to 60Hz? So why cross at 100Hz?

They may go down to 60Hz but the power will drop. Some speakers quote -3dB some even as low as -6dB for their low end figure. Personally, I cross over at between 80Hz and 100Hz depending on the system.

Edited yesterday at 11:52 by JPJ

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

7 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

It's an interesting one, 'cos there's an argument that tops are completely fine with going down to 60Hz? So why cross at 100Hz?!

Because the sub probably has more available output from 60-100Hz than the tops. Crossing lower than 100Hz with tops that are on stands also brings floor bounce cancellation into the equation. 

Quote

crossing over at 150Hz (because the bass combo can easily handle up to this) would be more beneficial than 100Hz.

No, as that results in directionally locatable frequencies coming from the subs. Then you lose the ability to put the subs anywhere, which should never be below the mains unless there's no alternative. 

[Al Krow]

41 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

...which should never be below the mains unless there's no alternative. 

 

Seems to be the key point here, thanks. Please remind us why that is Bill - sound reinforcement from the walls?

 

42 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

[Cross over at 150 Hz]...results in directionally locatable frequencies coming from the subs. Then you lose the ability to put the subs anywhere...

 

I suspect 8/10 pub / bar bands in the UK put their tops on poles above their subs due to space limitation issues. But if the only downside is directionally locatable frequencies and bands aren't fussed about the losing the ability to put subs anywhere, then no particular problems crossing over at a higher frequency than the usual 100Hz when using a bass combo as a sub?

[Chienmortbb]

One of the things that annoys me, apart from my terrible bass playing, is speaker manufacturers specs. 
 

We have heard many times how the maximum SPl is often inflated by 6dB but many well respected brands will quote, as said above, their frequency responses at -6dB, indeed some quote is at -10dB. Some, RCF for example, do not even quote the limits. 
 

Wharfedale Pro quote their speakers at both -3dB and -10dB so you can compare. It is likely that if no limits are specified it is -10dB. 
 

So a Top that is quoted at say 65Hz as its lower frequency limit may well be -10dB down, a huge amount. By crossing over at say 100Hz, you ensure that the Tops can handle the parts of the spectrum that they were really designed for, the section where they. Really have a flat response. 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

Seems to be the key point here, thanks. Please remind us why that is Bill - sound reinforcement from the walls?

Allison Effect, the cancellation from the reflection off the rear wall. To prevent it the subs must be close to the wall, the mains far from it. When both are the same distance away it's unavoidable. 

 

Quote

I suspect 8/10 pub / bar bands in the UK put their tops on poles above their subs due to space limitation issues. But if the only downside is directionally locatable frequencies and bands aren't fussed about the losing the ability to put subs anywhere, then no particular problems crossing over at a higher frequency than the usual 100Hz when using a bass combo as a sub?

See above. Since you can put the sub anywhere that relieves some of the space concerns. By dint of using a bass combo as a sub it is a sub, and the same placement rules apply. 

[Phil Starr]

On 05/10/2025 at 14:25, Happy Jack said:

Already bought Phil, and with my eyes wide open. If I've screwed up then at least I can't lose too much money on a £200 sub. 😉

 

We've used the CP8s at The Load Of Hay once already and it's pretty clear that they're on the lightweight side ... not a criticism, just recognition that we're deliberately 'mis-using' them.

 

We have a gig next weekend at a much larger pub but one where the space allotted to the band is about as big as your dining table, so I really wanted to get the sub on board in time for that gig.

 

Well a lot can happen in a week. 

 

John @Chienmortbb has been looking for a small lightweight sub for some time. He has the usual problems with hefting around huge speakers and one of the solutions are Wharfedale Titans, 12" speakers which have a great vocal sound with a decent horn and driver, go really loud and are nice and light. The problem is the lightweight cab means they don't do bass well at high volumes. That Citronic sub looked like a solution and the thought was that if it wasn't up to the job we'd just remove the plate amp and build a new cab with a better speaker in. £200 for an amp and crossover looked too good to be true. John ordered one too and we unpacked it at the SW Bass Bash on Sunday.

 

So first impressions, it's tiny and very portable, quite nicely made too. The cab seems solid with a decent paint finish, the grill is good enough and some nice handles have been fitted. The plate amp itself seems well constructed and it all works OK. The sound was acceptable, these things don't go down really low but they do add a nice thump to the sound. We were in a smallish room with other people doing other things so we didn't have the cahnce to run at gig volumes but with sub and both 12" tops turned up there was too much bass. turning the sub back to 1.00 o'clock gave a disco bass sound and 12.30 was where the balance was. The sub wasn't flat out distorting before I turned it down and I reckon it was rolled back slightly more than 12db. One of these with a couple of eights might be a good match but two with the Wharfedales would proibably work well. They are light enough for me at 73 to carry two at a time and would back easily into most cars, they are the size of many 1x10 bass cabs. At £200 they are a steal.

 

Looking forward to seeing how @Happy Jack got on at the gig

[Happy Jack]

4 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Looking forward to seeing how @Happy Jack got on at the gig

 

It took us far too much of the first set to sort out the appropriate settings on both the sub and the tops - too many options everywhere - but by about 20 mins in @Silvia Bluejay was beginning to get less disgusted with the basic sound and starting to apply the right EQ to make improvements.

 

I thought the sub was strangely sensitive (on its own volume control) to an exact sweet spot for best resuts, but we weren't being helped by either the room (very lively) or the band layout - we had the tops on either side of the band and the sub on the floor dead centre, but further forward than I'd have preferred due to a partition getting in the way.

 

By set #2 Silvie had it completely under control and the sound was fine, certainly far better than with just the CP8s on their own. They're great units and I really rate them for confined spaces, but Silvie never tires of pointing out that they're really intended for use as floor wedges and sound awful compared to our more serious PA kit.

 

As an audio experience, and judged purely for that, the Citronic sub + 2xQSC CP8s rig was actually a bit meh and of course that's exactly what I expected. Now factor in the portability and form factor in a badly-designed boozer with a tricky load-in and it all makes sense. I'm delighted that we have that rig ... we won't use it often but we'll use it where we need it, and that will probably be a dozen times a year.

 

[Happy Jack]

This is really not a great audio recording and does that PA rig no favours - we sounded way better than this in the room.

 

 

[Phil Starr]

22 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

It's an interesting one, 'cos there's an argument that tops are completely fine with going down to 60Hz? So why cross at 100Hz?

 

I'm definitely no expert here, but if a key purpose is to relieve the tops of their low end lows to focus on non-bass frequencies, then crossing over at 150Hz (because the bass combo can easily handle up to this) would be more beneficial than 100Hz. But, as I say, I'm no expert!

The thing is that bass cabs aren't necessarily flat response and Markbass have their own 'sound' with a boomy ill defined low mid peak. Then you have to consider what the tops are doing, They've been designed for a flat response but they have a crossover of their own linking the bass driver to the horn. Push the HPF high enough in the subs crossover and it starts to interact with the crossover in the tops where the bass driver is now acting as the midrange driver in a three way system. Three way crossovers are a total PItA to design well. Keeping the crossover down around the 100Hz range means you are doing all this at a point where our ears aren't too picky/discriminating. IME 120Hz might be the sort of starting point that I'd try.

 

This is a bodge and @synthaside is just going to have to use their ears to get the best out of it. Only they can judge if it is better than the Yamahas on their own but just trying  is a great way to learn .

[Phil Starr]

Ha ha, matching subs to tops is way trickier than it has a right to be. You're lucky to have @Silvia Bluejay out front to balance it all up. I've messed up totally in the past by having the subs too loud, nobody ever starts with them too quiet. Trying to eq for an incorrectly set sub from the desk isn't easy either.

 

I quite enjoyed that, the bv's were coming over nicely. The bass was maybe a bit indistinct at the beginning but I've heard a lot worse and I know how often Shelagh tells me we sounded a lot better in the room than on my own point and shoot recordings. The sub is really discreet I'd have struggled to find it if I hadn't known what I was looking for.  Thanks for sharing the video. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Phil Starr

[Chienmortbb]

25 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

 

It took us far too much of the first set to sort out the appropriate settings on both the sub and the tops - too many options everywhere - but by about 20 mins in @Silvia Bluejay was beginning to get less disgusted with the basic sound and starting to apply the right EQ to make improvements.

 

I thought the sub was strangely sensitive (on its own volume control) to an exact sweet spot for best resuts, but we weren't being helped by either the room (very lively) or the band layout - we had the tops on either side of the band and the sub on the floor dead centre, but further forward than I'd have preferred due to a partition getting in the way.

 

By set #2 Silvie had it completely under control and the sound was fine, certainly far better than with just the CP8s on their own. They're great units and I really rate them for confined spaces, but Silvie never tires of pointing out that they're really intended for use as floor wedges and sound awful compared to our more serious PA kit.

 

As an audio experience, and judged purely for that, the Citronic sub + 2xQSC CP8s rig was actually a bit meh and of course that's exactly what I expected. Now factor in the portability and form factor in a badly-designed boozer with a tricky load-in and it all makes sense. I'm delighted that we have that rig ... we won't use it often but we'll use it where we need it, and that will probably be a dozen times a year.

 

While in a perfect environment the “good” PA sounds better, would it have sounded better in that Pub?

l alike you, I am not expecting the performance of a wall designed and powerful sub with a good set of tops but plan to use it to just fill that little hole at the bottom end, to help the Whatfedales, which I must say are seriously underrated speakers.

 

[Chienmortbb]

One of the things I learnt a long time ago is that you can have too much of a good thing. Like many other things in life you should not really hear the sub, any more than you can hear the LF driver or tweeter in the tops. Turn it up until you can just hear it then just back it of a little. 
 

The main thing with this Citronic Sub is it’s lightweight, small, well made and  does  what it is designed for.  Even with a buggered left shoulder it is an easy one hand lift.