Trace Wattage, I Know, Old Topic, But...

[Count Bassie]

I've got a kind of prog-ish doom style original band, I play bass. I'm in process of getting a Mk IV head cleaned up and installed in a plywood sleeve I made, and I'm thinking about running it into an Ampeg PR410HLF cab, 600w @4 ohms. 

The Mk IV is rated at 250w, 4 ohms. In my experience, Trace heads seem to deliver more than that. I'm thinking this'll be loud as Godzilla with a stubbed toe in a mix with two loud guitars and big drums, playing some melodically complex bass lines.

Can I get witness?

Edited Friday at 16:36 by Count Bassie

[Stub Mandrel]

Not really. The issue is that Trace power ratings are honest continuous RMS ratings so what a 250W Trace is rated at would be described as 1000W by less scrupulous manufacturers.

 

Bear in mind 2,500W is only twice as loud as 500W, other things being equal.

[thodrik]

If that amp and cab isn’t loud enough then your band is too loud, even if it is a doom band.

 

It should be plenty loud and then some.

[Count Bassie]

Thank you guys. 

 

[Count Bassie]

On 06/06/2025 at 13:24, Stub Mandrel said:

Not really. The issue is that Trace power ratings are honest continuous RMS ratings so what a 250W Trace is rated at would be described as 1000W by less scrupulous manufacturers.

 

Bear in mind 2,500W is only twice as loud as 500W, other things being equal.

This about honest ratings hits the mark. My tech friend says similar about how power is now rated at 1k, which isn't really honest low end. It requires more power to reproduce low end, so you get higher, impressive numbers. 

 

[Phil Starr]

Getting an honest rating is a real problem over here too. The current trend is a two way exaggeration. Firstly amp powers are routinely calculated (ie not measured) at 6db above their measured rating, so a 500W amp becomes a 2,000W amp In PA active speakers it is even worse. They add the power of the tweeter amp to the amp driving the bass unit despite the fact that they don't both work together at any frequency other than at crossover where the power is reduced 3db. Then they save money by using the same amps over all the ranges but throttle them back so they can't damage the speakers. The poor old horn driver is likely to be 30W handling. The protection circuitry makes ssure there is no chance of it ever seeing more than that whatever you as an operator do.

 

250W is likely to be plenty through even an average speaker and through your 4x10 will be awesome

[prowla]

At a recent jam my TE 300W at 1/4 into an Ashdown 4x10 matched the loudness of the drummer.

At a previous one my Markbass 500W into two 1x10 wasn't loud enough.

[BassmanPaul]

Twice as many speakers in the 4x10! Simple.

 

The rotational position of the volume control has no real relavaance to  the output the amplifier is producing.

 

Edited Tuesday at 18:13 by BassmanPaul

[prowla]

4 minutes ago, BassmanPaul said:

Twice as many speakers in the 4x10! Simple.

Yup - could well be that!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Exactly that. All else being equal, although it never is, four tens have 6dB higher sensitivity than two tens. That's equivalent to a four fold power increase. It's more complicated when the drivers and enclosure tunings aren't identical, and they're not all parallel wired, but for the most part adding drivers alone without adding power will still go louder. 

[Sparky Mark]

The maximum output of many modern amplifiers is stated at 1% (sometimes 10%) THD (total harmonic distortion). Trace Elliot used a 0.02% level at maximum output. I wonder if this means the TE amps were capable of higher outputs but with increased THD?

[Stub Mandrel]

"Less than 0.02% THD at full power"

 

It may not be acceptable for hifi, but even 10% THD is not unpleasant for a solid state instrument amplifier.

 

0.02% gives a conservative power rating for a stage amp.

[Sparky Mark]

6 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

"Less than 0.02% THD at full power"

 

It may not be acceptable for hifi, but even 10% THD is not unpleasant for a solid state instrument amplifier.

 

0.02% gives a conservative power rating for a stage amp.

And this could be the reason Trace Elliot amps have a reputation for delivering more power than other amps with the same advertised output. 

[chyc]

On 10/06/2025 at 06:58, Phil Starr said:

In PA active speakers it is even worse. They add the power of the tweeter amp to the amp driving the bass unit despite the fact that they don't both work together at any frequency other than at crossover where the power is reduced 3db. Then they save money by using the same amps over all the ranges but throttle them back so they can't damage the speakers. The poor old horn driver is likely to be 30W handling. The protection circuitry makes ssure there is no chance of it ever seeing more than that whatever you as an operator do.

So true. An obvious tell is when a manufacturer manufactures both active and passive PA cabinets. For some mysterious reason, their active speakers' amps are dispensing watts that their passive lines aren't rated for. 

 

QSC K12: 2000W

QSC E112: 400W continuous, 1600W peak.

[prowla]

3 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

"Less than 0.02% THD at full power"

 

It may not be acceptable for hifi, but even 10% THD is not unpleasant for a solid state instrument amplifier.

 

0.02% gives a conservative power rating for a stage amp.

 

Years ago I had an argument with someone who said you couldn't turn up a hi-fi amp to full because it would distort.

I said that means it's badly designed.

I then demonstrated on my hi-fi - no sign of distortion!

[SamPlaysBass]

At this point I'll take any technical knowledge I have (not hard), throw it out of the window and use purely anecdotal evidence, which is of course, always valid...

 

I had a GP12 SMX 4x10 combo for a few years and adored it. It was the loudest thing in the universe as far as I was concerned. I'm not sure what component of it made it so loud; the conservatively rated power section, or the fact that it was the fact it was on wheels and wielding now old-fashioned 10" drivers way off the floor made a difference, but it carried its sound like nothing else I've ever played. It didn't have super subby lows, but it was perfect for the bands I was playing in at the time where our PA was so crap that all of the bass sound had to come from the amp. And WHAT a sound - lovely, focused bass sound filling the air in big old Workingmans Halls and Clubs around the Valleys. They had lovely mids and a very good 12-band graphic EQ.

 

It's a shame that Trace lost its reputation for 'underpromise, overdeliver' when it came to sound, loudness and quality. The closest thing I've owned that puts me somewhat in mind of the Trace is the Markbass AG1000 through a Ninja 2x12 cab, but I'm sure if Trace designed it, they'd market it as having measly 150 watts or so. If I had the space, I'd buy that GP12 SMX combo back in a heartbeat. 

[Sparky Mark]

37 minutes ago, SamPlaysBass said:

At this point I'll take any technical knowledge I have (not hard), throw it out of the window and use purely anecdotal evidence, which is of course, always valid...

 

I had a GP12 SMX 4x10 combo for a few years and adored it. It was the loudest thing in the universe as far as I was concerned. I'm not sure what component of it made it so loud; the conservatively rated power section, or the fact that it was the fact it was on wheels and wielding now old-fashioned 10" drivers way off the floor made a difference, but it carried its sound like nothing else I've ever played. It didn't have super subby lows, but it was perfect for the bands I was playing in at the time where our PA was so crap that all of the bass sound had to come from the amp. And WHAT a sound - lovely, focused bass sound filling the air in big old Workingmans Halls and Clubs around the Valleys. They had lovely mids and a very good 12-band graphic EQ.

 

It's a shame that Trace lost its reputation for 'underpromise, overdeliver' when it came to sound, loudness and quality. The closest thing I've owned that puts me somewhat in mind of the Trace is the Markbass AG1000 through a Ninja 2x12 cab, but I'm sure if Trace designed it, they'd market it as having measly 150 watts or so. If I had the space, I'd buy that GP12 SMX combo back in a heartbeat. 

A rehearsal studio in Hertford used to have Series 6 410 and Series 6 112 combos that sounded amazing. I think they were both rated as 150 watts without an extension cab. They were what brought me back to TE amps. I'm not one for mid cut pre shapes, but there's something about that original Trace Elliot pre shape button that just works so well.

Edited 10 hours ago by Sparky Mark

[Count Bassie]

10 minutes ago, Sparky Mark said:

A rehearsal studio in Hertford used to have a Series 6 410 and a Series 6 112 combos  that sounded amazing. I think they were both rated as 150 watts without an extension cab. They were what brought me back to TE amps. I'm not one for mid cut pre shapes, but there's something about that original Trace Elliot pre shape button that just works so well.

I like the presentation and then bringing in some mids with the graphic. 

[Count Bassie]

Thanks everyone for posting. 😎👍

[Stub Mandrel]

4 hours ago, SamPlaysBass said:

At this point I'll take any technical knowledge I have (not hard), throw it out of the window and use purely anecdotal evidence, which is of course, always valid...

 

I had a GP12 SMX 4x10 combo for a few years and adored it. It was the loudest thing in the universe as far as I was concerned. I'm not sure what component of it made it so loud; the conservatively rated power section, or the fact that it was the fact it was on wheels and wielding now old-fashioned 10" drivers way off the floor made a difference, but it carried its sound like nothing else I've ever played. It didn't have super subby lows, but it was perfect for the bands I was playing in at the time where our PA was so crap that all of the bass sound had to come from the amp. And WHAT a sound - lovely, focused bass sound filling the air in big old Workingmans Halls and Clubs around the Valleys. They had lovely mids and a very good 12-band graphic EQ.

 

It's a shame that Trace lost its reputation for 'underpromise, overdeliver' when it came to sound, loudness and quality. The closest thing I've owned that puts me somewhat in mind of the Trace is the Markbass AG1000 through a Ninja 2x12 cab, but I'm sure if Trace designed it, they'd market it as having measly 150 watts or so. If I had the space, I'd buy that GP12 SMX combo back in a heartbeat. 

 

I've got a GP11 1110 (red stripe 4x12 combo).

 

Sounds great.

 

If only it was easier to move around, I've only gigged it twice 😞

[tauzero]

5 hours ago, SamPlaysBass said:

I had a GP12 SMX 4x10 combo for a few years and adored it. It was the loudest thing in the universe as far as I was concerned. I'm not sure what component of it made it so loud; the conservatively rated power section, or the fact that it was the fact it was on wheels and wielding now old-fashioned 10" drivers way off the floor made a difference, but it carried its sound like nothing else I've ever played. It didn't have super subby lows, but it was perfect for the bands I was playing in at the time where our PA was so crap that all of the bass sound had to come from the amp. And WHAT a sound - lovely, focused bass sound filling the air in big old Workingmans Halls and Clubs around the Valleys. They had lovely mids and a very good 12-band graphic EQ.

 

I had one. I never really noticed the sound, I was too busy recovering from carrying the bastard thing into the venue.

[Stub Mandrel]

7 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

I had one. I never really noticed the sound, I was too busy recovering from carrying the bastard thing into the venue.

 

I think mine is about 96lbs.