The future of amps & cabs - stage props only?

[Tech21NYC]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Of course there is, there always was. I just don't believe a guitarist who says he is going to do it

 

It sounds like you've been playing with amateurs.  You either know how to play a gig or you don't. In my decades long playing career I've played over 5000 gigs. Whether I'm playing a multimillion $ Broadway Musical production, local pub gig or recording in a studio the same principles always apply. You play at the appropriate volume for the room and situation. As a rule of thumb in most situations the drummer tends to dictate the overall volume of the band which is why I find it puzzling that in many situations where everyone plays direct, they use an acoustic drum kit. 

 

[Steve Browning]

Where's the humility emoji when you need it? 🙂

[Chienmortbb]

I think this thread covers why, but full backline and full IEM/Modelling are both good and bad. The tow best live gigs I have heard were a pub gig with a band called Chicago 9 Blues band (based around Southampton I think) and Black Country Communion. 

 

One was in a PUB, the other in the Hammersmith Odeon. The blues band were clearly very experienced and using some EV 12s plus an old fashion PA amp. All instruments and the blues harp went through the backline. The vocals were as clear as a bell, each instrument has clear and in its own sonic place. Simply a good band with a great sound.

 

BCC had real amps on stage, Three Orange AD200 stacks for Glenn Hughes, Two 100 watt Marshall stacks for Bonamassa clearly the keys and drums were through the PA. I was up in the gods, but the sound was superb. There were no props, no special lights. The whole setup was smack in the middle of the stage. It was a really stripped down gig. Clearly this gig was hybrid, although I have to accept that they may have fooled me, but they had wedges on stage and I could not see IEMs on either Hughes or Bonamassa.

 

I saw Glenn Hughes a few years earlier at the Engine Room in Southampton. They were using a full PA with small amps on stage. The sound was awful, every beat of the kick obliterated the rest of the sound.

 

Clearly a good sound and experience for both audience, and band can be had either by having a silent stage or full backline, and evangelists on both sides are both right and wrong.

[SimonK]

4 hours ago, Tech21NYC said:

It sounds like you've been playing with amateurs.  You either know how to play a gig or you don't. In my decades long playing career I've played over 5000 gigs. Whether I'm playing a multimillion $ Broadway Musical production, local pub gig or recording in a studio the same principles always apply. You play at the appropriate volume for the room and situation. As a rule of thumb in most situations the drummer tends to dictate the overall volume of the band which is why I find it puzzling that in many situations where everyone plays direct, they use an acoustic drum kit. 

 

 

This requires a good drummer though. There's a young chap, recent ACM graduate, who I play with on occasion and he just does everything right - volume, not over  playing etc etc... but he's a pro. Some of the other drummers I play with make everything a bit harder not out of spite, just less experience.

[Painy]

On 03/05/2025 at 12:28, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Don't assume that if you can't see them that the amps and speakers aren't there. They may be back stage or under it, in isolation booths.

I saw these guys a few weeks ago too and got chatting about gear too the bass player after the show. Apparently he's just using an EBS Microbass iii preamp pedal. 

Can't speak for the guitarists though. 

[Painy]

On 03/05/2025 at 12:28, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Don't assume that if you can't see them that the amps and speakers aren't there. They may be back stage or under it, in isolation booths.

I saw these guys a few weeks ago too and got chatting about gear to the bass player after the show. Apparently he's just using an EBS Microbass iii preamp pedal. 

Can't speak for the guitarists though. 

[Steve Browning]

11 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

I think this thread covers why, but full backline and full IEM/Modelling are both good and bad. The tow best live gigs I have heard were a pub gig with a band called Chicago 9 Blues band (based around Southampton I think) and Black Country Communion. 

 

One was in a PUB, the other in the Hammersmith Odeon. The blues band were clearly very experienced and using some EV 12s plus an old fashion PA amp. All instruments and the blues harp went through the backline. The vocals were as clear as a bell, each instrument has clear and in its own sonic place. Simply a good band with a great sound.

I will let Melvyn (Lockyer- the bass player) know of your review. It will be appreciated. 

[SimonK]

13 hours ago, Painy said:

I saw these guys a few weeks ago too and got chatting about gear to the bass player after the show. Apparently he's just using an EBS Microbass iii preamp pedal. 

Can't speak for the guitarists though. 

 

Ah that's what it was - I didn't get a chance to speak to him but could see he had something smaller than a helix at his feet. I think he had a boss tuner as well. Mind you his bass wasn't even on stage before the show and I was initially worried there wouldn't be a live bass player!

[cetera]

Simple fact is that in theatres, even more so than clubs & pubs, getting the cleanest, clearest controllable volume is a must. It makes everyone's job so much easier when using IEMs and clean preamp feeds to the desk. All settings can be saved and duplicated each night with just slight adjustments out front on the PA for the room ambience.
I speak from experience having done an extensive theatre rock show tour myself with amps and then other theatre shows with silent stages/preamps.

[Chienmortbb]

39 minutes ago, cetera said:

Simple fact is that in theatres, even more so than clubs & pubs, getting the cleanest, clearest controllable volume is a must. It makes everyone's job so much easier when using IEMs and clean preamp feeds to the desk. All settings can be saved and duplicated each night with just slight adjustments out front on the PA for the room ambience.
I speak from experience having done an extensive theatre rock show tour myself with amps and then other theatre shows with silent stages/preamps.

Horses for courses, over the past three years I have seen in excess of 200 gigs in clubs and pubs and perhaps 2 in theatres. Yes, both theatre gigs were silent stage and only one club gig (Abba Tribute, where one of the members covered half the cost). The sound of one of the theatres gigs was excellent (story of Guitar Heroes), the other was so much boom and mud where we were seated that it was rubbish (Jane Macdonald, I know, but her indoors likes her, and she does suffer my choices all year).

 

The poor gig had a rookie mistake by the sound tech in that he had the subs at either side of the wide stage. Power alley central!

[Harryburke14]

After playing mostly guitar for a few years I am now the bass player of a band following a lineup change.

 

As a guitarist, I would go ampless wherever I could. The band has it's own PA system and in scenarios where we'd use other people's PAs they could always handle both guitarists in the band being ampless - most of these gigs were at bigger clubs where we'd have a promoter-supplied PA and soundman.

 

But now I'm not sure what to do. The same equipment (Tonex One and DI box) can be used to go ampless for bass, but seeing as our own PA doesn't have a woofer or anything, will I regret not having a bass amp to add some proper low end?

[Chienmortbb]

49 minutes ago, Harryburke14 said:

But now I'm not sure what to do. The same equipment (Tonex One and DI box) can be used to go ampless for bass, but seeing as our own PA doesn't have a woofer or anything, will I regret not having a bass amp to add some proper low end?

I think you will need an amp/cab. You could go the full FRFR PA cab route, though a decent one will cost. A new RCF/QSC worth its slat being north of £1K. They do occasionally come up "pre-loved" but usually in pairs and most sellers will not split. The advantage of these is the ability to use them as floor monitors when PA is supplied.

 

You could bite the bullet and buy a sub yourself. Depending on your band's PA top cabinets, the choice of the sub's crossover/filtering is crucial. Look for one(s) that has an HPF on the output to the tops and if your tops have an HPF, experiment as to which combination gives the best sound.

 

Or you could get a conventional rig, size is your choice, and we could give more advice knowing the line-up and type of music played. This might be you best/least expensive option.

[Harryburke14]

Yeah so our rig revolves around a 12-channel Behringer Mixer, 2x 1500w tops and 4 wedges. The mixer allows for us two send out two independent mixes to the wedges, so we usually have one mix for guitars/bass, and one for singer and drummer (singer occasionally just takes house mix).

 

I wanted to go ampless mostly because I'm the only person in the band who doesn't drive a little hatchback, so all of that gear is my responsibility to lug around. There's not much room left in the car after that for an amp.

[Wombat]

20 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

Horses for courses, over the past three years I have seen in excess of 200 gigs in clubs and pubs and perhaps 2 in theatres. Yes, both theatre gigs were silent stage and only one club gig (Abba Tribute, where one of the members covered half the cost). The sound of one of the theatres gigs was excellent (story of Guitar Heroes), the other was so much boom and mud where we were seated that it was rubbish (Jane Macdonald, I know, but her indoors likes her, and she does suffer my choices all year).

 

The poor gig had a rookie mistake by the sound tech in that he had the subs at either side of the wide stage. Power alley central!

As I actually don’t know - never used Subs - where would you put them please?

 

We have a pair of Bose F1s and they are fine with me going straight in with my stomp in the small pubs we play. Great hifi like sound! But been thinking for a while that we may need a sub if we ‘break out’ and play anything bigger! So knowing where to put it/them would be good!

A supplementary question (to which I guess the answer is ‘no’) is that I have an old pair of Alto 12s gathering dust (they are sooo heavy) so could one/both of them be used as subs?

 

Cheers peeps.

[Chienmortbb]

There are subs in those Bose systems and there may be enough for most gigs. Just make sure you have some type of HPF as otherwise they can become a bit muddy.