Danny Sapko discovers… (now including follow up vid that is worse!)

[fretmeister]

2 minutes ago, kwmlondon said:

Yeah but I saw him with a full band. They were really good … the drummer did a helkuva solo. They were not miming. 

Maybe some of them were?

[kwmlondon]

6 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

Maybe some of them were?

Maybe. Maybe, but honestly can’t believe that any of them were. I think that in a live context but playing a very heavily rehearsed set they were a tight, and very competent band. I was more focused on tue bass player but he was outstanding as was the drummer. I was there with a friend who has been a session guitarist and works professionally as a gigging musician and neither of us thought anyone was miming. AND I had my glasses on!

 

I really think that miming to that standard in front of a live audience would be harder than playing it live! 

Edited yesterday at 18:03 by kwmlondon

[Hellzero]

6 minutes ago, kwmlondon said:

 

I really think that miming to that standard in front of a live audience would be harder than playing it live! 

Not sure. Ask Madonna, the queen of miming.

[Hellzero]

Or Taylor Swift.

[kwmlondon]

Look. Maybe he was miming but I just don’t think it’s likely. Nobody has ever called him out as a fake for his work with his band and he’s been touring for years but…. I would love to hear his isolated playing from the desk. That would be fascinating. I think it’s more likely that he’s put a live set together of pieces that look flashy and sound impressive but are not that challenging and have runs and riffs that don’t show up flawed playing. That would be was easier than running the whole gig to a click and miming playing guitar. But I could be wrong. I often am. 

[BabyBlueSound]

I am not on Insta, but I don't suppose Mr Tuah apologised yet there, where his main "audience" resides? 😁 

[Beedster]

You get good at doing what you do a lot of, you mime a lot you get bloody good at it 😕

[Hellzero]

54 minutes ago, kwmlondon said:

Look. Maybe he was miming but I just don’t think it’s likely. Nobody has ever called him out as a fake for his work with his band and he’s been touring for years but…. I would love to hear his isolated playing from the desk. That would be fascinating. I think it’s more likely that he’s put a live set together of pieces that look flashy and sound impressive but are not that challenging and have runs and riffs that don’t show up flawed playing. That would be was easier than running the whole gig to a click and miming playing guitar. But I could be wrong. I often am. 

Listen to or watch Rick Beato's answer, you'll find the answer you're looking for.

[kwmlondon]

49 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Listen to or watch Rick Beato's answer, you'll find the answer you're looking for.

You’re must be right. I probably can’t tell a live musician from someone faking it when I’m standing in front of them. Nobody could. 

Edited yesterday at 20:10 by kwmlondon

[Hellzero]

I've met people, called fans, going to a Rolling Stone concert and never noticing that Mick Jagger is singing out of tune, or that Keith Richards is playing something but not what was supposed to be there...

 

I know some other people having seen Madonna or Taylor Swift live and swearing that the band was terrific, when everybody is miming.

 

I've met people telling that Céline Dion saved the slaughter that were the Olympics thanks to her magnificent vocal technique, when it was a wonderful playback.

 

So, being a fan is being biased, don't you think...

[Beedster]

6 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

I've met people, called fans, going to a Rolling Stone concert and never noticing that Mick Jagger is singing out of tune, or that Keith Richards is playing something but not what was supposed to be there...

 

I know some other people having seen Madonna or Taylor Swift live and swearing that the band was terrific, when everybody is miming.

 

I've met people telling that Céline Dion saved the slaughter that were the Olympics thanks to her magnificent vocal technique, when it was a wonderful playback.

 

So, being a fan is being biased, don't you think...

 

Yep, we tend to see what we want to see and hear what we want to hear

[kwmlondon]

14 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

I've met people, called fans, going to a Rolling Stone concert and never noticing that Mick Jagger is singing out of tune, or that Keith Richards is playing something but not what was supposed to be there...

 

I know some other people having seen Madonna or Taylor Swift live and swearing that the band was terrific, when everybody is miming.

 

I've met people telling that Céline Dion saved the slaughter that were the Olympics thanks to her magnificent vocal technique, when it was a wonderful playback.

 

So, being a fan is being biased, don't you think...

I’m not a fan though. I didn’t like his music that much I just believe that in a venue where I’m close to the stage I would spot someone miming guitar where you can see so clearly what their hands are doing. I guess I think because in the past I’ve been able to spot a mined performance I’d have picked it up.. but I can’t be sure.

 
It does bug me now though and I really want to know for sure! 
 

I don’t mind a mess up though, that’s half the fun of seeing a live show is when a good musician pulls a mistake into a save!

Edited yesterday at 21:07 by kwmlondon

[BassTractor]

14 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

So, being a fan is being biased, don't you think...

Of course, but you weren't there, and you probably also do not know @kwmlondon.
There are probably several possible explanations, of which playback is only one; another one is the one kwmlondon offered: that the player in question had chosen the material with care.

BTW, I'm an unfan, and I'm much biased too.
I like to believe this rat is also committing many other acts of low quality.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 21:06 by BassTractor

[kwmlondon]

2 minutes ago, BassTractor said:

Of course, but you weren't there, and you probably also do not know @kwmlondon.
There are probably several possible explanations, of which playback is only one; another one is the one kwmlondon offered: that the player in question had chosen the material with care.

BTW, I'm an unfan, and I'm much biased too.
I like to believe this rat is also committing many other acts of low quality.

 

 

Yeah this x100. Ripping off other people’s work and monetising it is what he’s been caught out for. If being a crap guitarist was a crime I’d be in prison with a double-sided criminal record. 

[chriswareham]

Lots of bands mime substantial parts of their performance at concerts, especially at the professional level. My wife is a former professional opera singer and was in denial when I told her that several of her favourite bands mime a lot. I knew this because friends have actually played in those bands and told me about it. Then through one of those friends she was offered a chance to perform with the side project of the lead singer from one of her favourite bands. It was to "perform" the operatic backing vocals and keyboard parts. They sent the backing tracks, which consisted of pre-recorded vocals and keyboard parts that the audience would hear plus an in ear track she would hear. That in ear part included a click and cues of the form like "chorus in 4, 3, 2, 1" simply to ensure the mimimg was convincing to the audience.

Edited 23 hours ago by chriswareham

[Beedster]

10 minutes ago, chriswareham said:

Lots of bands mime substantial parts of their performance at concerts, especially at the professional level. My wife is a former professional opera singer and was in denial when I told her that several of her favourite bands mime a lot. I knew this because friends have actually played in those bands and told me about it. Then through one of those friends she was offered a chance to perform with the side project of the lead singer from one of her favourite bands. It was to "perform" the operatic backing vocals and keyboard parts. They sent the backing tracks, which consisted of pre-recorded vocals and keyboard parts that the audience would hear plus an in ear track she would hear. That in ear part included a click and cues of the form like "chorus in 4, 3, 2, 1" simply to ensure the mimimg was convincing to the audience.

That’s the truth of it. Some very talented people mime, let’s not be too surprised that the less talented do the same 

[BabyBlueSound]

This one has some more live show examples:

 

https://youtu.be/Jqyt2fk7aNw?si=9nldbl6gB_DFBuHU

[Burns-bass]

8 hours ago, Beedster said:

That’s the truth of it. Some very talented people mime, let’s not be too surprised that the less talented do the same 

when you’re doing a show like Coldplay, Swift or U2 it’s simply too big to fail, so they have multiple backups. It’s only logical this would happen.

 

You’re paying for the collective experience more than the musicianship. That’s always been the case.

[BassTractor]

49 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

You’re paying for the collective experience more than the musicianship. That’s always been the case.

Aye, and this reminds me of the gig of so-called avant-garde electronic music I once went to, where a reel-to-reel tape recorder, an amp and two speakers were the only things on the stage, and some guy walked on  - -  to a grand-but-ironic applause, to which he sniggeringly bowed  - -  and proceeded to said recorder and turned the lever to PLAY.

I tried to protest: "Playback!", but got the big "SHUSH!".

[kwmlondon]

5 hours ago, BabyBlueSound said:

This one has some more live show examples:

 

https://youtu.be/Jqyt2fk7aNw?si=9nldbl6gB_DFBuHU

That was a really good take. Enjoyed that. Cheers for sharing.

 

If you can stretch to a nearly 55 min video, Adam Neely's PhD thesis-level discussion of miming and authenticity is incredible. It also shows all the tricks of how you can knock up a faked video - it's an eye-opener. I knew about comping, that's been done since the first days of multi-track recording, but this is amazing:

 

[EBS_freak]

16 hours ago, chriswareham said:

Lots of bands mime substantial parts of their performance at concerts, especially at the professional level. My wife is a former professional opera singer and was in denial when I told her that several of her favourite bands mime a lot. I knew this because friends have actually played in those bands and told me about it. Then through one of those friends she was offered a chance to perform with the side project of the lead singer from one of her favourite bands. It was to "perform" the operatic backing vocals and keyboard parts. They sent the backing tracks, which consisted of pre-recorded vocals and keyboard parts that the audience would hear plus an in ear track she would hear. That in ear part included a click and cues of the form like "chorus in 4, 3, 2, 1" simply to ensure the mimimg was convincing to the audience.

Theres more to it than that.

 

Granted, there will be mimes - but when you get to larger productions, where there is a hell of a lot of effort put into polishing the audio, click is vital for things like time based effects (e.g. delays). Theres simply too much going on for sound engineers to be tapping tempos or trying to get players to control their onstage effects to be in sync to an ever changing tempo. Solution = click, and midi timecode. Lets not also forget, for large scale events, you'll need a click for automations on the light show.

 

Cues is no biggie - why wouldn't you prerecord the cues if you are running to a pre-arranged show? It's making the MDs life a bit easier on the talk back mic.

 

I know Rick Beato talked about changing up shows - all possible if you mark your loop zones in the arrangements. Like everything, it's all in the prep.

 

And thats why the best stadium shows are complete mammoth works of art.

[chriswareham]

26 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Theres more to it than that.

 

Granted, there will be mimes - but when you get to larger productions, where there is a hell of a lot of effort put into polishing the audio, click is vital for things like time based effects (e.g. delays). Theres simply too much going on for sound engineers to be tapping tempos or trying to get players to control their onstage effects to be in sync to an ever changing tempo. Solution = click, and midi timecode. Lets not also forget, for large scale events, you'll need a click for automations on the light show.

 

Cues is no biggie - why wouldn't you prerecord the cues if you are running to a pre-arranged show? It's making the MDs life a bit easier on the talk back mic.

 

I know Rick Beato talked about changing up shows - all possible if you mark your loop zones in the arrangements. Like everything, it's all in the prep.

 

And thats why the best stadium shows are complete mammoth works of art.

 

Just to be clear, I wasn't making any judgement on the use of backing tracks. I've played many, many shows with either a drum machine or sequencer as that was a distinct part of the music. I'd never want to mime though - if I'm not playing a particular part then I simply won't pretend to.

[kwmlondon]

Just now, chriswareham said:

 

Just to be clear, I wasn't making any judgement on the use of backing tracks. I've played many, many shows with either a drum machine or sequencer as that was a distinct part of the music. I'd never want to mime though - if I'm not playing a particular part then I simply won't pretend to.

When I went to the Yolanda Charles bass clinic a few weeks ago she played the pre-recorded vocal track that she and the live orchestra had to follow when she toured with Hans Zimmerman. it had variable tempo because the singer performed live to the movie - the click was just constantly varying and it was incredible to think how anyone could follow it. Yolanda and her guitarist demonstrated how they had to speed up and slow down from somewhere around 60 bpm to about 140 over just a couple of bars... in perfect sync with the orchestra and the pre-record. Honestly. It was one helluva feat of musicanship from those two and I grew another level of respect for pro musicians who do that kind of thing.

[Stub Mandrel]

Perhaps that is why I like the music I like so much.

 

You can view videos of Hawkwind gigs, and they don't play the same song the same two nights running and will sometimes randomly improvise a song (notably Delilah on one recent live album).

Seeing Arthur Brown when the guitarist's combo blew a fuse mid-song, and Arthur helped him fix it while the drummer and bass player improvised for three or four minutes.

 

Or any band where you can see the little mistakes and recoveries or the bits where they pull it all together.

 

The best live music is like kintsugi. The flaws are the golden bits that raise it from the ordinary to the exceptional.

[fretmeister]

3 hours ago, kwmlondon said:

When I went to the Yolanda Charles bass clinic a few weeks ago she played the pre-recorded vocal track that she and the live orchestra had to follow when she toured with Hans Zimmerman. it had variable tempo because the singer performed live to the movie - the click was just constantly varying and it was incredible to think how anyone could follow it. Yolanda and her guitarist demonstrated how they had to speed up and slow down from somewhere around 60 bpm to about 140 over just a couple of bars... in perfect sync with the orchestra and the pre-record. Honestly. It was one helluva feat of musicanship from those two and I grew another level of respect for pro musicians who do that kind of thing.

Yeah, That Hans Zimmerman Live in Prague video is mind blowing.

 

I loved the bit with Guthrie when HS wanders over him for a solo. In an orchestra with genuinely elite musicians Guthrie then finds another gear and HS is clearly in awe. Amazing stuff.