Anyone happy to share the do's and don'ts of how to set up for a live gig in a pub?

[Pirellithecat]

Most weekends my right ear is closer to the Crash Cymbal than is the drummer's left lug hole,  ...... I'm clearly doomed!     😲

[TimR]

6 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

Most weekends my right ear is closer to the Crash Cymbal than is the drummer's left lug hole,  ...... I'm clearly doomed!     😲

At least get the cheap Elacin ear plugs. 

[Stub Mandrel]

19 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

Yeah, you do! No, seriously, you are right. Those 30 watt twins like the AC30, Selmer Zodiac 30 etc were very loud and in the 60s were a much better bet than the Fender twin combos. Looking back, I wonder why I "upgraded" to a Sound City 100 watt stack. Once I was a guitarist, but I had therapy and became a bassist.

 

AC30 is rated 30W at the onset of audible distortion.

 

Classic Marshall 100W valve combo is 100W maximum output.

 

Somewhere on YouTube is a test showing the AC30 is actually the more powerful amp.

 

Rehearsal on monday one guitarist was using a 5W valve amp.

[Chienmortbb]

11 hours ago, TimR said:

Soundpressure level drops by 6dB for each doubling of distance. 

So 

0m 0dB

1m 6dB

2m 12dB

4m 18dB

8m 24dB

 

If you put a - sign in front of those dB figures, yes but only in a free field with no trees. Rooms are a (mis) tuned box and are unpredictable.

[Stub Mandrel]

11 hours ago, TimR said:

Soundpressure level drops by 6dB for each doubling of distance. 

So 

0m 0dB

1m 6dB

2m 12dB

4m 18dB

8m 24dB

 

 

0dB reference would be at 0.5m.

 

Would be better to use relative to 1m as that's where amp SPL is measured.

 

So:

 

1m 0dB

2m -6dB

4m -12dB

8m -24dB

 

 

So an amp giving an spl of 115dB at 1m would give 109dB at 2m (e.g. standing near the amp at floor level).

 

91dB in the audience of a relatively small venue.

 

Note that enclosed spaces mean spl will be a lot higher at distance.

 

 

[vsmith1]

At the risk being sound too generalistic:

 

Everything is a compromise, especially in a (usually small) pub setting. 

Cut rather than increase - especially the mix levels - so that in order to make "a" louder, reduce "b,c,d,e,etc."

If there is backline then as human anatomy has ears on the head, get the backline cab as close to the head as possible or at least pointing to the head. 

 

Reduce the backline volumes, maybe by getting everything through the PA. Often it is acoustic drum kits that define the stage loudness, as people need to hear themselves above the drums. Of course, an e-kit is easier as it has volume controls. As long as the PA has good support for the kick drum especially - which can mean that a sub is needed. 

[Phil Starr]

Decibels are useful to know about, but just like watts they don’t tell the whole story. Hearing is also frequency dependent and the correct unit for how loud something sounds is the Phon. Midrange sounds are the loudest and that is why guitar amps sound so loud compared to bass amps. Guitar speakers also have huge peaks in their response in the 1-3kHz region where our hearing is most sensitive.

 

For the record the 120db sound level I use as a rule of thumb for bass is a peak level. The loudest sound I’d want a bass amp to make without distorting. I needed something as a target when designing my first bass cab and it is chosen so that a bassist can match a loud drum kit. I found some figures from “a well known festival in Somerset” showing average sound levels at the musicians ears of around 100db and randomly selected 40db as my dynamic range. So 120db is a peak level and 80db would be lost below the audience noise. Since then that figure has proven to be robust with commercial cabs not able to reach that level sounding a bit weak in the loudest bands but it’s all good for those exceeding that level.

 

sorry this is a bit of a thread derail but since I’ve been quoted I might as well come clean about where that no comes from.

[Pirellithecat]

Very interesting ...... whether dB's are relevant or not I'm with the band tonight so I'll see what output my cab is (dB) in the context of the overall sound levels (at my ear or thereabouts) Is the 120dB at 1metre? 

 

[Phil Starr]

As a design aid I use a calculated value at 1m. The real life measurements I based my rule of thumb on were taken at the musicians ears as they were taken for health and safety reasons. The drummers experienced higher levels than 100 db but some of their drums are going to be less than a metre away.

 

It will be interesting as to what you find but don't take it too seriously, taking a sound pressure level isn't quite point and shoot. They won't measure all frequencies accurately and will consistently under measure low frequencies and short duration peaks, the data needs interpretation.

 

 

Sound meters including the ones on phones (which are pretty good) measure in standard ways which both filter in terms of frequency and time. Your meter may be A weighted which filters out bass and high frequencies C weighted which is less  filtered or Z weighted which is flat response. Most only offer A or C weighting. They are also time weighted (averaged out over a time period) You'll be offered slow or fast and maybe impulse. Slow is measured over 1sec fast 125ms and impulse 35 ms. On top of this the microphone in your meter or phone won't be flat response or cover the whole frequency range. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_level_meter 

 

Use C weighting or Z weighting if that is available. If you have a meter I'd stick to 'slow' and accept that I'm not getting any peak measurements. If you use a phone it will be able to record the data and yield more information but that will depend upon which app you use.

 

I'm not sure how you will interpret this to your band, that will be the difficult bit but I'm really interested in how you get on. Good luck

[Pirellithecat]

Thanks Phil, 

Progress I think.

 

Taken at above/behind the bass rig (a bit further away from everything than my ears), and using Backline plus 2 Vocal Monitors, NO MAIN PA Speakers. 

Peak levels at rehearsal (accepting all caveats) were 115dB. 

This at 3metres from Drums, Guitars, and 2 meters from monitors.

Most songs in the 107 - 112 range with peaks at 115.   This was using Backline and 2 vocal monitors

 

Didn't tell the band until the end. 

 

They were shocked, 
We agreed to monitor it some more and try to reduce levels. 

 

115dB's at the topography of the rehearsal space suggests that the levels for someone playing (drummer) or standing on top of the Crash Cymbal (me) will be exposed to levels significantly higher than 115 - I'll measure at next gig. 

 

The drummer tried IEMs again and once his drums are Miked up - he might be OK with using them - he still feels isolated from his drums etc .... but work in progress.

I'm still trying IEM's, but find that, I can't really tell what the bass actually sounds like "out front" so without a "Sound guy" that makes live a bit tricky - but I'll see how this evolves. 

 

One remaining issue is that the main vocal monitor, in front of the Vocalist, seems excessively prone to feed back.  At volumes she can hear herself properly it feeds back erratically.   Shure SM58 Mic, Laney CPX12 Monitor.  could be reflections from wall immediately behind her, rehearsal set-up positioning, horrid monitor - or useless bloke on mixer (me)! 

 

All in all though a step in  the right direction

 

Thanks everyone for continuing input.

 

 

 

 

[Chienmortbb]

36 minutes ago, Pirellithecat said:

 Shure SM58 Mic, Laney CPX12 Monitor.  could be reflections from wall immediately behind her, rehearsal set-up positioning, horrid monitor - or useless bloke on mixer (me)! 

The SM58 has a wider pickup angle than many modern Cardioid mics. Also, reflections from the wall can be an issue. Cardioid mics have their biggest rejection from immediately behind the mic, and remember the cardioid pickup pattern is 360 degrees.  Moving the monitor forward, backward or slightly around the corner might help. Alternatively if the monitor needs to be angled, a Super Cardioid mid would work best. I use Sontronics Solos, but Sennheiser and Shure make nice super-cardioids.

[Chienmortbb]

6 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Sound meters including the ones on phones (which are pretty good) measure in standard ways which both filter in terms of frequency and time. Your meter may be A weighted which filters out bass and high frequencies C weighted which is less  filtered or Z weighted which is flat response. Most only offer A or C weighting. They are also time weighted (averaged out over a time period) You'll be offered slow or fast and maybe impulse. Slow is measured over 1sec fast 125ms and impulse 35 ms. On top of this the microphone in your meter or phone won't be flat response or cover the whole frequency range. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_level_meter 

The mic capsules in mobile phones are in fact very flat, BUT the implementation inside the phone can cripple the response. I have no knowledge of individual Android Phones, but I believe that iPhones up to iPhone 4 were very flat. Later models had an HPF applied in hardware. I still have an iPhone 4 for this reason.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Chienmortbb

[TimR]

I would expect sound pressure levels behind the cab to be very odd. It's important to get the bass cab as close to the wall as possible as it reinforces volume due to boundary reflections. 

 

Maybe the positioning of the cabs needs to be looked at as well. 

[TimR]

48 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

The SM58 has a wider pickup angle than many modern Cardioid mics. Also, reflections from the wall can be an issue. Cardioid mics have their biggest rejection from immediately behind the mic, and remember the cardioid pickup pattern is 360 degrees.  Moving the monitor forward, backward or slightly around the corner might help. Alternatively if the monitor needs to be angled, a Super Cardioid mid would work best. I use Sontronics Solos, but Sennheiser and Shure make nice super-cardioids.

 

Agreed. But also the back of the mic needs to be pointing towards the monitor as much as possible to avoid feedback, while the front is pointed away from cymbals and any other cabs.

 

I think trying to get vocalist away from in front of cymbals and away from in front of the guitar speaker is a good aim to have to avoid bleed.

[Pirellithecat]

I do need to work on the positioning of the band members/monitors on the stage - that's a very good point.   Might require a bit more "negotiation though .......

We currently use a single monitor shared between the vocalist and the guitar player who also sings.   If we "split up" the vocalist and guitar player I suspect we would need another monitor.  I'm wondering whether that might actually be a good idea anyway, as each individual monitor would have to cover a smaller space and consequently be able to be quieter.    Each monitor would also be more able to be positioned in the Null Zone of each Mic.  One is an SM58, the other an SM58Beta.

 

In the rehearsal space the bass cab is not near a wall - it's centrally placed in the room,  at least 2meters away from the nearest wall.  I'm trying to measure the volume of overall sound pressure waves reaching my ears rather than the bass volume.  The (doubtless approximate) sound-meter app seems to suggest that we are a tad loud and that it's not just my perception or aged ears.
I've re-read the info on SM58 placement relative to a monitor and we're pretty much in line with that, except the wall behind the vocalist in the rehearsal space.   

So next steps are - use 2, different monitors - away from the reflective wall and in the null zones of the mics.   If this helps, negotiate the position of the band members on stage.  (This would also be really helpful as it would move me away from the Crash Cymbal!.) 

[Phil Starr]

3 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

One remaining issue is that the main vocal monitor, in front of the Vocalist, seems excessively prone to feed back.  At volumes she can hear herself properly it feeds back erratically.   Shure SM58 Mic, Laney CPX12 Monitor.  could be reflections from wall immediately behind her, rehearsal set-up positioning, horrid monitor - or useless bloke on mixer (me)! 

 

The useless bloke is absolutely not useless, he's working hard to solve problems he's not causing himself and approaching things systematically.

 

Those sound levels are scary if accurate. 

 

Female voices aren't usually as loud as male voices and few female singers in my experience have the confidence to pull the mic in closer and really belt it out. Quite apart from which the SM58 has a marked proximity effect which will make her voice sound unnatural as she is singing and instinct will make her push it away. The Laney is rather dull sounding in the crucial mid-range so she won't be getting the detail she needs to pitch and at the mic I suspect the band is more or less at the same level as her voice so turning her up amplifies the mud instead of lifting her out of it.

 

I'm off to a gig in a couple of hours so I'll have a think and get back to you tomorrow. The proper solution for her is definitely in-ears and for the band to turn down but there are a few marginal gains to be had.

[skidder652003]

I promise Im not on commish for these but ive gigged them twice now as I was concerned about how my hearing was being affected my being right beside the drummers crash and snare

and they have been fantastic, Everything is super clear and at a quiet level. For your singer I would deffo recommend, cheap too.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BY6MH97W?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

[jimmyb625]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

 

The useless bloke is absolutely not useless, he's working hard to solve problems he's not causing himself and approaching things systematically.

 

Those sound levels are scary if accurate. 

 

Female voices aren't usually as loud as male voices and few female singers in my experience have the confidence to pull the mic in closer and really belt it out. Quite apart from which the SM58 has a marked proximity effect which will make her voice sound unnatural as she is singing and instinct will make her push it away. The Laney is rather dull sounding in the crucial mid-range so she won't be getting the detail she needs to pitch and at the mic I suspect the band is more or less at the same level as her voice so turning her up amplifies the mud instead of lifting her out of it.

 

I'm off to a gig in a couple of hours so I'll have a think and get back to you tomorrow. The proper solution for her is definitely in-ears and for the band to turn down but there are a few marginal gains to be had.

I agree with all of this, especially with regard to her using in-ears. I used to struggle with our female vocalist, as she had excessive levels in the monitor, so much so, that no one else on stage ever needed any of her vocals in their monitors.

As soon as I managed to move her over to in-ears, the rest of the monitoring became far more manageable.

 

@Pirellithecat Have you looked at any eq'ing for the monitors to identify if there are frequencies that are particularly susceptible to feedback? Obviously, it's going to be tricky to do if you're pushed for time on a get-in and it can be a bit anti-social if you're "ringing" out the monitors to eq them. I've just seen that you're on an analogue desk, which is going to make it a little trickier when compared to a new fangled digital one with eq's just about everywhere, however you could put something in-line and used analogue output gear is very affordable nowadays. 

There are also "feedback destroyers" which are either heaven sent, or the work of the devil, depending on your experiences with them.

Edited September 30, 2023 by jimmyb625

[Pirellithecat]

7 hours ago, skidder652003 said:

I promise Im not on commish for these but ive gigged them twice now as I was concerned about how my hearing was being affected my being right beside the drummers crash and snare

and they have been fantastic, Everything is super clear and at a quiet level. For your singer I would deffo recommend, cheap too.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BY6MH97W?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

Thanks - I'm trying to use Xvive U4 currently - bit of a learning curve but fingers crossed it'll help. 

6 hours ago, jimmyb625 said:

I agree with all of this, especially with regard to her using in-ears. I used to struggle with our female vocalist, as she had excessive levels in the monitor, so much so, that no one else on stage ever needed any of her vocals in their monitors.

As soon as I managed to move her over to in-ears, the rest of the monitoring became far more manageable.

 

@Pirellithecat Have you looked at any eq'ing for the monitors to identify if there are frequencies that are particularly susceptible to feedback? Obviously, it's going to be tricky to do if you're pushed for time on a get-in and it can be a bit anti-social if you're "ringing" out the monitors to eq them. I've just seen that you're on an analogue desk, which is going to make it a little trickier when compared to a new fangled digital one with eq's just about everywhere, however you could put something in-line and used analogue output gear is very affordable nowadays. 

There are also "feedback destroyers" which are either heaven sent, or the work of the devil, depending on your experiences with them.

Yep, I've tried EQing the monitors and it certainly helps, but to get to the required volume they are still prone to feedback.    Clearly if we can manage the volume we'll help with the feedback.   

Concerning the choice of an analogue desk, in hindsight this was a mistake.  I was worried about the learning curve/complexity, the reliability of the connection and the ability to reach over mid song and deal with issues whilst playing, but I probably should have bitten the bullet. 

 

Any thought on the idea of doubling up the monitors so that we replace one large one with two more compact ones so that each vocalist can get the level they need rather than the higher level they need when sharing?
Does the ability to position each monitor closer to the relevant person's ears and in better alignment with the Null area of their Mic outweigh the fact that there might be more sound overall from the sum of the sounds of having 2 Monitors rather than 1?   

VSmith1 of this Parish has very kindly just leant me the reference book mentioned above, together with another tomb, so I'll have a look at those over the next few days and see if I can find Nirvana!  Much obliged!!

Thanks all!

Edited September 30, 2023 by Pirellithecat

[Downunderwonder]

8 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

Any thought on the idea of doubling up the monitors so that we replace one large one with two more compact ones so that each vocalist can get the level they need rather than the higher level they need when sharing?

Good prospects as each monitor will only need a fraction of the volume if placed well.

[vsmith1]

On 30/09/2023 at 15:36, Pirellithecat said:

I do need to work on the positioning of the band members/monitors on the stage - that's a very good point.   Might require a bit more "negotiation though .......

We currently use a single monitor shared between the vocalist and the guitar player who also sings.   If we "split up" the vocalist and guitar player I suspect we would need another monitor.  I'm wondering whether that might actually be a good idea anyway, as each individual monitor would have to cover a smaller space and consequently be able to be quieter.    Each monitor would also be more able to be positioned in the Null Zone of each Mic.  One is an SM58, the other an SM58Beta.

 

In the rehearsal space the bass cab is not near a wall - it's centrally placed in the room,  at least 2meters away from the nearest wall.  I'm trying to measure the volume of overall sound pressure waves reaching my ears rather than the bass volume.  The (doubtless approximate) sound-meter app seems to suggest that we are a tad loud and that it's not just my perception or aged ears.
I've re-read the info on SM58 placement relative to a monitor and we're pretty much in line with that, except the wall behind the vocalist in the rehearsal space.   

So next steps are - use 2, different monitors - away from the reflective wall and in the null zones of the mics.   If this helps, negotiate the position of the band members on stage.  (This would also be really helpful as it would move me away from the Crash Cymbal!.) 

If you had two monitors then get a separate monitor mix to each, so that the lead vocalist has more of herself, and enough of there others; the secondary vocalist has more of themselves and enough of the others. That would help with overall reduction stage volumes, provided that the drums don't swamp everything.

[Pirellithecat]

🤣 Great! ...... so that'd be 4 monitor feeds  (Bass, Drums, 2 Vocals) ... and we've recently replaced our mixer with a nice new shiny Mackie 16ProFX ........ with 3 Aux Sends!!!!     😳Doh!   But you are right.    I'll start trying to sell all my  "spare" gear (and maybe a kidney) to fund a 4 Aux send mixer -  any suggestions!!   What were you using on Saturday - great sound with several monitor feeds and not enormous in terms of "footprint".     Great crowd response too - how did Sunday go?

[TimR]

I wouldn't normally be putting drums or guitar or anything else other than vocals through the monitors on a self operated PA.

 

The exception being on a very large stage some guitar if I'm a long way from the guitar amp. But even then that gives the vocalist problems.

 

I think getting a stand alone 'stereo' EQ for the monitors is a wise idea. You then just put one chanel through each side.

Edited October 2, 2023 by TimR

[warwickhunt]

2 minutes ago, TimR said:

I wouldn't normally be putting drums or guitar or anything else other than vocals through the monitors on a self operated PA.

 

The exception being on a very large stage some guitar if I'm a long way from the guitar amp. But even then that gives the vocalist problems.

 

I think getting a stand alone 'stereo' EQ for the monitors is a wise idea. You then just put one chanel through each side.

 

I think that just depends on each band's situation.  I've played for a lot of years where the kick, snare and guitar were put through the PA/FOH to give a bit of spread and were never needed back through monitors.  However, with the growing trend for bands to go to silent stage/no backline, bass, keys and guitar 'have' to go through the PA and back through the monitors in order to be heard by each other.  

[Pirellithecat]

15 minutes ago, TimR said:

I wouldn't normally be putting drums or guitar or anything else other than vocals through the monitors on a self operated PA.

 

The exception being on a very large stage some guitar if I'm a long way from the guitar amp. But even then that gives the vocalist problems.

 

I think getting a stand alone 'stereo' EQ for the monitors is a wise idea. You then just put one chanel through each side.

That's interesting.  If I'm successful in reducing our stage volume, won't the Drummer find it (even more) difficult to hear the guitars and bass especially if he uses IEM's?   Whilst i wasn't thinking of putting the guitars, drums and bass through the Vocal monitors, my trials with IEM's, so far, indicate I need vocals, guitars, bass (.... and might even be tempted with a little drum to improve the "lock-in" between bass and drums) via my monitor feed.   
Am I missing something?