Building a Wal....ish

[JPJ]

Just had a chance to watch the latest iteration video through my studio monitors, and again, I find myself preferring the sound of the Funkle over the Wal 🤯. It sounds to me like the Lusithand preamp is more 'open' than the Wal (in a sort of 'goes up to eleven' way) if that makes sense?

Playing around with the filter pre on my Overwater I have now discovered that the filters are indeed one per pickup, and that there is a pull up function on the master volume that appears to replicate the Wal pick attack. Despite my Overwater being a neck through all mahogany construction with what looks like an ash top, it does not sound anything like a Wal, having its own unique sound which I actually now quite like. 

[NickA]

The Walish is a nice bass, no doubt. I agree it has a clearer "more open" sound than the Wal. ...a better sound in many ways.

 

The Wals being made today are replicas of those designed in the 80s.  Paul Herman isn't rocking the boat by making something different or updated ..if Wal and Pete were around today, to design a MK4, I wonder how that would sound!  I guess, eventually Paul will run out of ancient op-amps and then we might find out.

 

I'd love to hear how a fretless Walish would sound too as, to me, fretted Wals are knd of missing the point and a bit ordinary by comparison.  I've one of each and it's the fretless that's really special.

 

As for neck through basses ... My all ovangkol neck thro Warwick is a totally different beast. All twang and clarity with endless sustain.  Presumably the bolt on neck and its inherent lossiness is part of the Wal sound.

[slowburnaz]

On 16/10/2023 at 14:58, NickA said:

The Walish is a nice bass, no doubt. I agree it has a clearer "more open" sound than the Wal. ...a better sound in many ways.

 

The Wals being made today are replicas of those designed in the 80s.  Paul Herman isn't rocking the boat by making something different or updated ..if Wal and Pete were around today, to design a MK4, I wonder how that would sound!  I guess, eventually Paul will run out of ancient op-amps and then we might find out.

 

I'd love to hear how a fretless Walish would sound too as, to me, fretted Wals are knd of missing the point and a bit ordinary by comparison.  I've one of each and it's the fretless that's really special.

 

As for neck through basses ... My all ovangkol neck thro Warwick is a totally different beast. All twang and clarity with endless sustain.  Presumably the bolt on neck and its inherent lossiness is part of the Wal sound.

For what it’s worth, here’s a fretless with my pickups and a Lusithand (though these are the coil pair per output versions):  

 

Fretless demo starts at around 3:35.

[LukeFRC]

3 hours ago, slowburnaz said:

For what it’s worth, here’s a fretless with my pickups and a Lusithand (though these are the coil pair per output versions):  

 

Fretless demo starts at around 3:35.

That sounds wonderful. There is a chance it’s the player as much as the bass, but it sounds great!

[bloke_zero]

7 hours ago, slowburnaz said:

For what it’s worth, here’s a fretless with my pickups and a Lusithand (though these are the coil pair per output versions):  

 

Fretless demo starts at around 3:35.

Sounds great - very even and defined. There is such an incredbible range on the Lusithand that I started having to take notes on the good ones. Especially when you get into blending pickups.

I still really like the filter boosted and totally open or just pulled down a notch - adds a lovely air and bite.

 

The turners really seem to add to the clarity and definition!

[JPJ]

8 hours ago, slowburnaz said:

For what it’s worth, here’s a fretless with my pickups and a Lusithand (though these are the coil pair per output versions):  

 

Fretless demo starts at around 3:35.

Two beautiful basses but I gravitate towards the fretless. It seems there are some really usable tones in this combination of pre and pickups, but in terms of a comparison to Wal, they should 'cleaner' to me, without that signature Wal distortion. Also, there seemed to be a noticeable volume difference between the various filter positions that I don't get with my Overwater filter pre? 

 

[slowburnaz]

4 hours ago, JPJ said:

Two beautiful basses but I gravitate towards the fretless. It seems there are some really usable tones in this combination of pre and pickups, but in terms of a comparison to Wal, they should 'cleaner' to me, without that signature Wal distortion. Also, there seemed to be a noticeable volume difference between the various filter positions that I don't get with my Overwater filter pre? 

 

I don’t notice a volume drop in person… I kinda wonder if that’s just a matter of what’s reproducible on YT frequency-wise.

[Chopthebass]

Hey Pete,

Great video, and thanks for the kind words. It was great fun making your body and I must say how nice the assembled bass looks! Definitely a great color scheme and a killer tone.

Ian

[NickA]

So many lovely basses, so little time!  Those two are as good as you'd ever need really.  I mean it's nice to own a Wal ( or two ) and good to know they won't lose value too much ... but they're not really miles ahead of the pack.

 

ACG, the Wallish, these two, my mate's Skjold .. all great.

 

...and yet current pop and rock is full of Fenders.  Not so, Jazz happily... just bought Hiromi's Sonic Wonderland with Hadrien Feraud playing a fretless MTD .. sounds great.

[funkle]

Brief update

 

The mystery preamp had mysterious technical issues - couldn’t get it to work. The maker is very kindly going to make another one, but it may be some time. 
 

I need to record some video, but I have tried out the latest Turner multicoil pickups with a design that is closest to the Wal - more windings per coil, different wire, etc. Paired with the Lusithand Double NFP Special, these are a triumph.  I did some very rough recordings today and I now doubt anyone could tell the differences. This is a win. 
 

The Wal and Double NFP Special preamps handle treble quite differently, but actually you can get similar treble boosts out of them. Basically ‘10’ on the Wal for the front pickup is ‘8’ on the Wal-ish, and ‘10’ on the Wal rear pickup is about ‘6’ on the Wal-ish. 
 

So, on the Wal, you get more treble either by pulling the ‘pick attack’ switch, or by maxing out the control knobs and pulling the filter boosts. 
 

On the Wal-ish, I just turn up the filters to closer to ‘10’ and/or pull the filter boosts. 
 

Of course, given how the preamps work, the Wal gets more granular mid controls, a little bit at the expense of finer trable control. The Wal-ish gets finer control over treble and slightly less over the mids, as the range of travel down to 0 on each knob is less than on the Wal. However, it does this with 1 less switch and a less complicated preamp design overall. (The Wal, as we know, separates out the treble then adds it back in later, if I recall correctly mainly from the neck pickup signal). 
 

I’ll make the video…It’s easier to show/explain I think. 
 

I took the Wal-ish out to a band rehearsal last Friday and it was a win there too. I’m very happy. 
 

I think I’ll be able to sell my Wal next year. I may keep it for reference for a bit - I’d like to compare other preamps - but I think the Wal-ish is finally where I want it to be. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by funkle

[Andyjr1515]

1 hour ago, funkle said:

I need to record some video, but I have tried out the latest Turner multicoil pickups with a design that is closest to the Wal - more windings per coil, different wire, etc. Paired with the Lusithand Double NFP Special, these are a triumph.  I did some very rough recordings today and I now doubt anyone could tell the differences. This is a win. 

 

1 hour ago, funkle said:

I took the Wal-ish out to a band rehearsal last Friday and it was a win there too. I’m very happy. 

Sounds very exciting...and I bet it does too  

[MrDinsdale]

Looking forward to it!

 

It’d be interesting to see once you’ve nailed the sound on the Walish what the new turner pickups and NFP sounded like in the original test bed modded p-bass. I wonder just how much of the sound is from the electronics. Although it’d obviously be a real pain to rewire.

[funkle]

22 minutes ago, MrDinsdale said:

Looking forward to it!

 

It’d be interesting to see once you’ve nailed the sound on the Walish what the new turner pickups and NFP sounded like in the original test bed modded p-bass. I wonder just how much of the sound is from the electronics. Although it’d obviously be a real pain to rewire.

I wonder the same. I’m probably not going back to it though with these pickups and preamp. 
 

I will speculate on this further in the video, but presently, I think the pickups and their placement make the biggest difference, the fingerboard next, the neck construction after that. The EQ is critical to get the characteristic distortion and ‘quack’ but given the pickups need buffering has to go hand in hand with that anyway. 

 

The body I think does make a small

difference, but not on the same scale as the others.

 

I don’t think nut, tuners, bridge make any audible differences to me in this context. 

[JPJ]

So are we to conclude you have unlocked the ‘secret source’ of the Wal sound? Does this mean the people at Wal will either: a) take out a contract on you; b) send you a cease and desist; c) buy you out for mega bucks then bury your research? 😂

[funkle]

None of those are likely…lol…but there will be an uptick in people buying Turner pickups and Lusithand preamps, I think…

[MrDinsdale]

5 hours ago, funkle said:

I wonder the same. I’m probably not going back to it though with these pickups and preamp. 
 

I will speculate on this further in the video, but presently, I think the pickups and their placement make the biggest difference, the fingerboard next, the neck construction after that. The EQ is critical to get the characteristic distortion and ‘quack’ but given the pickups need buffering has to go hand in hand with that anyway. 

 

The body I think does make a small

difference, but not on the same scale as the others.

 

I don’t think nut, tuners, bridge make any audible differences to me in this context. 

Yeah I think that’s inline with what I was thinking. Except for the fretboard, never really thought of the fretboard material having much effect aside from feeling different.

 

Im definitely planning to do a Yamaha BB/Wal DIY hybrid at some point once I’ve got the time and money. Spent far too much on pedals recently! 🙃

[funkle]

The influence of the fretboard is profound. Far more than I would have given credence to a few years ago. But in swapping around necks I have found that the sound of the bass trends to follow the neck, assuming pickups unchanged and strings unchanged.
 

Assuming nothing else changes and the neck is a bolt on single piece of maple, I find a maple fretboard is bright and clean, rosewood has more mids and no ‘spank’ at the very high end and has a nasally kind of twang to me, pao ferro is somewhere in between maple and rosewood but very pleasant, and ebanol sounds like it has a big fundamental but also plenty of mids. 
 

There is endless debate about where the sound of a bass comes from, but I’m not entertaining a lot of debate on this thread, quite deliberately. This is what I think and what I have reasonably shown from my own researches and videos. 

[MrDinsdale]

45 minutes ago, funkle said:

The influence of the fretboard is profound. Far more than I would have given credence to a few years ago. But in swapping around necks I have found that the sound of the bass trends to follow the neck, assuming pickups unchanged and strings unchanged.
 

Assuming nothing else changes and the neck is a bolt on single piece of maple, I find a maple fretboard is bright and clean, rosewood has more mids and no ‘spank’ at the very high end and has a nasally kind of twang to me, pao ferro is somewhere in between maple and rosewood but very pleasant, and ebanol sounds like it has a big fundamental but also plenty of mids. 
 

There is endless debate about where the sound of a bass comes from, but I’m not entertaining a lot of debate on this thread, quite deliberately. This is what I think and what I have reasonably shown from my own researches and videos. 

Very interesting. Yeah I always used to gravitate towards ebony but my current favourite basses are maple and rosewood so I think the feel is much less pronounced to me that I thought it was. I've never been in a position to really test side by side with such similar setups, I'm enjoying experimenting vicariously though through your videos 😂

[NickA]

On 04/12/2023 at 13:17, JPJ said:

So are we to conclude you have unlocked the ‘secret source’ of the Wal sound? Does this mean the people at Wal will either: a) take out a contract on you; b) send you a cease and desist; c) buy you out for mega bucks then bury your research? 😂

 

Electric wood are busy making super tidy perfectly finished basses

with optional gold dodahs, mother of pearl inlays and fancy wood stains.  Some people love that. 

 

I don't think exact replication of the sound will damage their business too much!

[Kiwi]

On 05/12/2023 at 04:45, funkle said:

The influence of the fretboard is profound. Far more than I would have given credence to a few years ago.

It's why Smith basses have relatively soft woods in the neck but a sodding great slab of ebony for the fingerboard.  The neck is just stiff enough rather than as stiff as it can be.  I've encountered the same effect in a guitar with the softest maple and mahogany laminates in the neck but an ebony board for preserving rigidity. 

I'm fond of ebony fingerboards because they can be dressed to very fine tolerances and are tonally neutral.  They seem to affect high end frequencies that are beyond what most of us need in a bass. 

[funkle]

11 hours ago, NickA said:

 

Electric wood are busy making super tidy perfectly finished basses

with optional gold dodahs, mother of pearl inlays and fancy wood stains.  Some people love that. 

 

I don't think exact replication of the sound will damage their business too much!

This!!

[bassvirtuoso]

On 04/12/2023 at 04:35, funkle said:

Brief update

 

The mystery preamp had mysterious technical issues - couldn’t get it to work. The maker is very kindly going to make another one, but it may be some time. 
 

I need to record some video, but I have tried out the latest Turner multicoil pickups with a design that is closest to the Wal - more windings per coil, different wire, etc. Paired with the Lusithand Double NFP Special, these are a triumph.  I did some very rough recordings today and I now doubt anyone could tell the differences. This is a win. 
 

 

 

Dang it, don't make me go buy another set of pickups! @slowburnaz why must you be a wizard?

 

Still looking forward to your future videos around that mystery preamp and any other preamp combos you might try.

 

@luthifer you mentioned the pick attack freq/treble filter on your original design being tested by a Wal owner who said it was set too low and then mentioned updating your filter to be closer to 6k-ish, have you made that update on your preamp yet?

[luthifer]

On 04/01/2024 at 08:03, bassvirtuoso said:

 

Dang it, don't make me go buy another set of pickups! @slowburnaz why must you be a wizard?

 

Still looking forward to your future videos around that mystery preamp and any other preamp combos you might try.

 

@luthifer you mentioned the pick attack freq/treble filter on your original design being tested by a Wal owner who said it was set too low and then mentioned updating your filter to be closer to 6k-ish, have you made that update on your preamp yet?

Yes, the new generation FT filter is the same tuning as Wal. I also have multicoil buffers now, and the Q levels for push and pull on the filters can be adjusted (0-8 dB for push, 0-13 dB for pull), which is of interest for a Wal-like setup because you can dial in a higher Q for the bridge. The adjustments are done with trimmers.

[funkle]

18 hours ago, luthifer said:

Yes, the new generation FT filter is the same tuning as Wal. I also have multicoil buffers now, and the Q levels for push and pull on the filters can be adjusted (0-8 dB for push, 0-13 dB for pull), which is of interest for a Wal-like setup because you can dial in a higher Q for the bridge. The adjustments are done with trimmers.

That sounds like a great preamp. 

May I ask @luthifer, does that preamp have any harmonic distortion, or is it clean?

[luthifer]

4 hours ago, funkle said:

That sounds like a great preamp. 

May I ask @luthifer, does that preamp have any harmonic distortion, or is it clean?

Distortion is very low across the board. I figure most folks will use an amp/pedal for that, the big advantage being that you can turn it off! I've been meaning to make a distortion module for the preamp, but can't seem to get around to it yet.