Rhythm is King-

[AM1]

Aloha

Before I played the bass, I didn't really fully appreciate the dynamic between drums and bass. I think with other contemporary instruments, you can pretty much get away with a lot as long as there is a solid rhythm section.

Now, playing bass with drum grooves and with a live drummer has made me to start to realise that for a bass player, rhythm is king. I am starting to really, really appreciate the role of the bass as a rhythm instrument (as well as harmony). In fact I now think that for drummers/bassists, it does not matter how technical you are, if you are rhythmically poor, you'll kill a band, i.e. the rhythm side is absolutely crucial.

I am aiming to start improving my understanding of drum patterns/grooves/fills, so that when I write basslines, they complement the drum parts and also to improve on my own rhythm and timekeeping. There is a big difference between good timekeeping and absolutely dynamite timekeeping.

I'm really motivated for this but I want to go about it the right, effective way. So I'm thinking that a few drum lessons would be great so I can start furthering my rhythm studies.

Is this a stupid idea?

Interested in comments.

[acidbass]

I'm also contemplating taking drum lessons. It seems like the perfect addition to any bassist's repetoire really, a greater sense of groove and timing will always prove useful. The rhythm section is the heartbeat of any band, and as we all know, the more in-tune a bass player is with his drummer, the better the band as a whole sounds. Knowing what things are like from his side of the kit will definitely help achieve this!

[The Funk]

I play a bit of drums, guitar and keys so that I can understand my role a bit better. In my band I write most of the drum/guitar/keys/vocal parts. It's made me a better bass player. I've also programmed drums in the studio. Seeing bars of music graphically like that is also helpful.

I read a really excellent book at university which I can't find in print or online anywhere now. It was from the '50s/'60s and called something corny like "[i]Clap Your Hands[/i]". It had a whole bunch of rhythmic exercises starting from the most basic to really complex patterns. It was all written in notation and you didn't need an instrument to practice on. I used to sit in law lectures tapping on my desk.

I'd definitely recommend rhythm studies. You don't have to physically play drums to get there but I think it helps. My drummer likes playing with me because he says it's like playing with a bassist and a percussionist at once.

Once you get past basic rhythmic knowledge and understanding, you can start working on your phrasing, by which I mean where you place notes in relation to the beat and how much you accent them in relation to each other. That's when your playing goes from good to great.

[Mr Fudge]

I have been a drummer in a few bands in the past ( 10+ years ago though now). It's great fun and very very intense when you are playing. It all helps. The relationship between drummer and bass player is the most important one the band.

If you can clap your hands you're there, if you cant you never will be! The steering wheel and dash of my car is now my drum kit. Very Alan Partridgesque ......

Edited April 5, 2009 by Mr Fudge

[ARGH]

Do it,education is never wasted...ever.

If you wanna push things a bit further down the line,get into the tuning of the kit too..makes a f***load of difference when the kicks in with the key of the song.

Edited April 5, 2009 by ARGH

[YouMa]

I coudnt be arsed, i have probably learned to pick up basic drumming in an afternoon but im a bass player and it took me 2 instruments to get here ,besides i listen to what all my drummers have told me about drumming and to be honest although i have liked all of them and some of them have been awesome players i have probably known more about famous drummers than they have. Hardly any seem to be into peter erskine or tony thompson which i think is a bit weird.

Edited April 5, 2009 by YouMa

[AM1]

[quote name='The Funk' post='455069' date='Apr 6 2009, 12:37 AM']Once you get past basic rhythmic knowledge and understanding, you can start working on your phrasing, by which I mean where you place notes in relation to the beat and how much you accent them in relation to each other. That's when your playing goes from good to great.[/quote]

Hiya

I completely agree on the phrasing, to me it's everything.

Check this link and listen to "Hit Me" and "Crazy" - I know you said you don't like punk but listen to the accents/phrasing/rhythmic stuff here.

I have been told that my bass playing in the band is becoming very similar to this style.

Cheers

[url="http://www.myspace.com/999space"]http://www.myspace.com/999space[/url]

Edited April 6, 2009 by AM1

[YouMa]

Its very tight but i really dont find anything amazing about it.I tried to listen to all nuances,sorry.

[AM1]

[quote name='YouMa' post='455077' date='Apr 6 2009, 12:56 AM']Its very tight but i really dont find anything amazing about it.I tried to listen to all nuances,sorry.[/quote]

Well count 1,2,3,4 repeatedly and listen to what happens between the drums and bass on certain beats of every bar on the "hit me" track.

You either "get" the phrasing thing or you don't.

I can hear it instantly.

Let's see who else gets it.

It's what gives this song a rock and roll groove.

[YouMa]

You are probably right and i have probably listened to to much jazz which will cloud anyones judgement,its good drumming and has its cheeky moments though. Im not trying to preach but i think you need to go one way or the other in your bass playing (from reading your other threads) Either get into punk/rock etc or get into funk/jazz/soul etc, i get the feeling you are very much torn between the two,i felt this way for a long time two.

[AM1]

[quote name='YouMa' post='455088' date='Apr 6 2009, 01:12 AM']You are probably right and i have probably listened to to much jazz which will cloud anyones judgement,its good drumming and has its cheeky moments though. Im not trying to preach but i think you need to go one way or the other in your bass playing (from reading your other threads) Either get into punk/rock etc or get into funk/jazz/soul etc, i get the feeling you are very much torn between the two,i felt this way for a long time two.[/quote]

NO - it's not the drumming. Listen really closely to exactly what is going on with every beat in the bar, it is subtle but if you're into phrasing in a big way it should stand out instantly.

As far as being torn between styles, there is absolutely no reason not to learn to play in a multitude of styles.

Bass is not my first instrument and I think getting stuck in one style musically can be a road to nowhere in that it eventually constrains you as a player. If you play primarily in one style, you will hit a big musical wall at some stage. I found the only way around this was adopt a seismic shift in styles and do something else for a while, even if you don't like the style of music, an open mind means you can usually gain something positive.

Versatility is where it's at for me. I'd happily play a variety of different styles in different bands (later down the line on the bass).

If you have got great rhythm and phrasing, eventually you can do justice to ANY musical style.

Becoming a "technician" in terms of fast fingers/technique, in my view, is secondary to developing a great sense of groove.

[ARGH]

[quote name='AM1' post='455092' date='Apr 6 2009, 01:22 AM']As far as being torn between styles, there is absolutely no reason not to learn to play in a multitude of styles.

..... and I think getting stuck in one style musically can be a road to nowhere in that it eventually constrains you as a player. If you play primarily in one style, you will hit a big musical wall at some stage. I found the only way around this was adopt a seismic shift in styles and do something else for a while, even if you don't like the style of music, an open mind means you can usually gain something positive.

Versatility is where it's at for me. I'd happily play a variety of different styles in different bands (later down the line on the bass).

If you have got great rhythm and phrasing, eventually you can do justice to ANY musical style.

Becoming a "technician" in terms of fast fingers/technique, in my view, is secondary to developing a great sense of groove.[/quote]


I spent 3 hours telling a group of 8 lads the same thing on friday.

[YouMa]

[quote name='AM1' post='455092' date='Apr 6 2009, 01:22 AM']NO - it's not the drumming. Listen really closely to exactly what is going on with every beat in the bar, it is subtle but if you're into phrasing in a big way it should stand out instantly.

As far as being torn between styles, there is absolutely no reason not to learn to play in a multitude of styles.

Bass is not my first instrument and I think getting stuck in one style musically can be a road to nowhere in that it eventually constrains you as a player. If you play primarily in one style, you will hit a big musical wall at some stage. I found the only way around this was adopt a seismic shift in styles and do something else for a while, even if you don't like the style of music, an open mind means you can usually gain something positive.

Versatility is where it's at for me. I'd happily play a variety of different styles in different bands (later down the line on the bass).

If you have got great rhythm and phrasing, eventually you can do justice to ANY musical style.

Becoming a "technician" in terms of fast fingers/technique, in my view, is secondary to developing a great sense of groove.[/quote]

Sorry im just not that much into 999,if a tune dont do it for me it doesnt ,i can think of a load of music with better interplay than this,its doing it for you though which is cool. I didnt mean you have to play one style,i love me rock and im a big dub fan but you have to have a majority style of playing if you want to get anywhere. Players will always be seen as a champion of a certain genre of music even if they do play another one well.Ie John paul jones is seen by most as a rock player but he could also play reggae and funk very well.

Edited April 6, 2009 by YouMa

[The Funk]

[quote name='YouMa' post='455088' date='Apr 6 2009, 01:12 AM']i think you need to go one way or the other in your bass playing (from reading your other threads) Either get into punk/rock etc or get into funk/jazz/soul etc[/quote]

Duff McKagan and Flea are two good bassists who are into both. Stanley Clarke even formed a band with Keith Richards and Ron Wood!

Going back to Gn'R's "[i]It's So Easy[/i]", imagine if Duff's bass intro was played with all the notes at the same intensity/volume and the same length. It would be so ordinary. It's all about phrasing.

[Paul Cooke]

[quote name='The Funk' post='455069' date='Apr 6 2009, 12:37 AM']I read a really excellent book at university which I can't find in print or online anywhere now. It was from the '50s/'60s and called something corny like "[i]Clap Your Hands[/i]". It had a whole bunch of rhythmic exercises starting from the most basic to really complex patterns. It was all written in notation and you didn't need an instrument to practice on. I used to sit in law lectures tapping on my desk.[/quote]

this book is in print and is worth studying closely...

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sight-Reading-Any-Rhythm-Instantly/dp/1575605155/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1239001733&sr=8-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sight-Reading-Any-...1733&sr=8-1[/url]

[AM1]

[quote name='YouMa' post='455094' date='Apr 6 2009, 01:31 AM']Sorry im just not that much into 999,if a tune dont do it for me it doesnt ,i can think of a load of music with better interplay than this,its doing it for you though which is cool. I didnt mean you have to play one style,i love me rock and im a big dub fan but you have to have a majority style of playing if you want to get anywhere. Players will always be seen as a champion of a certain genre of music even if they do play another one well.Ie John paul jones is seen by most as a rock player but he could also play reggae and funk very well.[/quote]

Hi again.

Even if you don't like the band, listen to the phrasing, it turns an ordinary 4/4 time signature into rock and roll by the use of very subtle accents and altering certain note lengths on certain beats in the bar. I don't think I had ever heard these songs until the weekend when a guitard that's been playing 30 yrs said my playing reminded him of a bassist called Jon Watson and specifically named several songs. Then I went and listened and I can hear the same kind of "natural" phrasing that I use. It's almost subconscious.

As to a majority style, the key difference between a lot of styles is driven by rhythmic nuances.....so I still believe if you have rhythm and groove and phrasing, you can do justice to any style. The melody/technician bit is secondary. If you spin this statement upside down, the best technician in the world is nothing without a well-developed sense of groove/phrasing. I stand by that 100% after seeing some technically great bass players who have zero feel and by that, I mean they have spent so long working on technique that the note lengths are all the same, there's no "groove", no phrasing.

It's ALL about phrasing. I think TheFunk "gets" what I'm trying to say (badly).

[Eight]

I have some basic knowledge of drumming (from having to midi program a few loops etc. over the years) but at this point, have no idea how a bassist locks in with a drummer. My ears can't seem to pick this up properly yet.

Anything been written on this interplay to point me in the right direction?

[MB1]

MB1.
Rhythm???.... That'll be news to Sade!......Sorry! i'll get me coat!

Edited April 6, 2009 by MB1

[51m0n]

Personally, I dont think learning the drums (and I've done a bit of this) will help anywhere near as much as learning a counter rhythmic percussion instrument.

Drums lay it down and groove, bass can either work that same pattern - more rock/punk/jazz (albeit swung) - or work around and through it (more funk)

At college we had a percussion class for a term. It was excellent, and really helped me understand counter rhythmic groove options. We used every kind of percussion instrument we could get our hands on and in groups were directed by an excellent drum/percussion teacher.

We later got to apply what we learned with our first instruments. Which is where it all came together for me.

Totally enhanced my understanding of rhythm and groove, and informed my playing to this day.

Since that education I have found that I spend a lot of time working the time between each quarter note, to impart as much swing/groove as is required, I rarely follow the drummers lead exactly.

That and an understanding of how 'stretchy' that time between crotchets is in terms of push/pull and swing is what creates groove.

IMO etc etc

Edited April 7, 2009 by 51m0n

[The Funk]

[quote name='51m0n' post='456588' date='Apr 7 2009, 05:14 PM']Personally, I dont think learning the drums (and I've done a bit of this) will help anywhere near as much as learning a counter rhythmic percussion instrument.

Drums lay it down and groove, bass can either work that same pattern - more rock/punk/jazz (albeit swung) - or work around and through it (more funk)
[...]
I have found that I spend a lot of time working the time between each quarter note, to impart as much swing/groove as is required, I rarely follow the drummers lead exactly.

That and an understanding of how 'stretchy' that time between crotchets is in terms of push/pull and swing is what creates groove.[/quote]

Good post! The drummer usually takes care of beats 1, 2 and 4 for you, freeing you up to play wherever you want. It can be nice from time to time if you mirror little rhythmic patterns here and there - and either the bassist of the drummer can lead that. Turn-arounds and pre-choruses are nice little spots for that kind of thing.

[Thunderthumbs]

[quote name='AM1' post='454829' date='Apr 5 2009, 06:38 PM']In fact I now think that for drummers/bassists, it does not matter how technical you are, if you are rhythmically poor, you'll kill a band, i.e. the rhythm side is absolutely crucial.[/quote]
Absolutely spot on.

The previous drummer I played with in the band had a 6 piece kit, loads of cymbals, electronic pads, etc. but he had no natural rhythm. No matter how much I tried, we just didn't gel at all. No matter how much I listened to him, he didn't listen to me.

The drummer we have now has a small 4 piece jazz kit with 2-3 cymbals max. He listens to me, I listen to him, and it's a million times better.

[The Funk]

In the early days of Chic, Bernard Edwards removed all of Tony Thompson's kit until there was only a kick, snare and hi-hat.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='AM1' post='455092' date='Apr 6 2009, 01:22 AM']Becoming a "technician" in terms of fast fingers/technique, in my view, is secondary to developing a great sense of groove.[/quote]

I would argue that you cannot be technically good unless your timing is good. A horde of monkeys can play fast - doubtless if I drove through Longleat with my bass strapped to the roof they would demonstrate this ably before the bass disintegrated - but if the notes are not in time then the speed is irrelevant.

The other overlooked part of technique is tone related - tone really is in your hands and again this is oft forgotten by those chasing the speed side of technique.

Michael Manring suggested a great exercise for getting in control of your timing - play a repeated two bar, one note groove, the first bar:

[b]1[/b] e + [b]a[/b] 2 e [b]+[/b] a [b]3[/b] e + [b]a[/b] 4 e [b]+[/b] a

the second bar six 1/4 note triplets.

Alex

[AM1]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='456667' date='Apr 7 2009, 06:27 PM']I would argue that you cannot be technically good unless your timing is good. A horde of monkeys can play fast - doubtless if I drove through Longleat with my bass strapped to the roof they would demonstrate this ably before the bass disintegrated - but if the notes are not in time then the speed is irrelevant.

The other overlooked part of technique is tone related - tone really is in your hands and again this is oft forgotten by those chasing the speed side of technique.

Michael Manring suggested a great exercise for getting in control of your timing - play a repeated two bar, one note groove, the first bar:

[b]1[/b] e + [b]a[/b] 2 e [b]+[/b] a [b]3[/b] e + [b]a[/b] 4 e [b]+[/b] a

the second bar six 1/4 note triplets.

Alex[/quote]

I think we agree, hence why the thread is called "rhythm is king". When I speak of a technician I mean the use of many/any techniques but yes, those are nothing without groove.

Some interesting tips here about development of rhythmic skills.

[51m0n]

Timing is best worked at slow, slower slowest. Thats where it is hard to be totally spot on.

Spend an hour or two at 40bpm, then try grooving at 100bpm. You [b]will[/b] be much more accurate.

On the other hand, 'stretchy' time (swingyness) between crotchets requires you to be absolutely comfortable playing straight at the tempo of the quick part of the swing.

For instance if you are swinging then the second quaver is actually as long as a triplet, thats significantly quicker than straight time, and to swing comfortably you need to be very happy at the straight tempo of that shorter quaver.

Not really explaining this too well I know, did anyone follow what I meant?