Why not mic the bass amp live?

[BadHands]

Thanks for the answers @EBS_freak!

So by that rationale, if the bass amp's contribution to tone can be achieved simply with an amp sim at the desk, why isn't this also done with guitars? DI post FX, and amp sim to achieve desired colouration. If the same compromise can be made, why is it always a given that bass players will make it?

I'm not trying to split hairs - just trying to reconcile it in my own head. 

[Downunderwonder]

28 minutes ago, BadHands said:

Thanks for the answers @EBS_freak!

So by that rationale, if the bass amp's contribution to tone can be achieved simply with an amp sim at the desk, why isn't this also done with guitars? DI post FX, and amp sim to achieve desired colouration. If the same compromise can be made, why is it always a given that bass players will make it?

I'm not trying to split hairs - just trying to reconcile it in my own head. 

The only reason is seated in the personality traits that make bassists easier to push over than guitarists.

1 more full range mic on stage isn't going to wreck a mix.

1 more flat response mic that the bassist has carefully selected in his budget isn't any trouble to sub for the DI box on stage.

All you have to do is be organised to mic your cab before they get to you.

When they say 'here's the bass DI' you say 'please have a listen to this'. If your rig tone is pleasing to the band mix on stage it will not be out of place in the room mix.

It's on the sound crew to EQ the room with the FOH. It's your job to be quiet enough that it's possible.

[Dad3353]

I'm sensing here that the bass cab is somehow colouring the bass tone to some large extent; enough to 'justify' adding it to the bass tone from a post-pre or post-power amp signal into a suitable DI. I would gather from this that this specific colouration is both wanted by the bassist (and, by extension, the band...), and is a constant throughout the performance. For my part, I find it strange that one would want the same bass tone for the whole length of the concert or event. It certainly wouldn't be usual for function bands, where a wide variety of styles is the norm. If the cab itself is, indeed, such an important part of the tone, it's going to be very difficult to change for another, as most cabs, whilst having maybe their differences, are designed to colour very little; not enough to make the sound so distinctive as to be essential, I'd have thought. I may be wrong, of course, but I find the notion rather odd, that's all. 

[Downunderwonder]

23 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

I'm sensing here that the bass cab is somehow colouring the bass tone to some large extent; enough to 'justify' adding it to the bass tone from a post-pre or post-power amp signal into a suitable DI. I would gather from this that this specific colouration is both wanted by the bassist (and, by extension, the band...), and is a constant throughout the performance. For my part, I find it strange that one would want the same bass tone for the whole length of the concert or event. It certainly wouldn't be usual for function bands, where a wide variety of styles is the norm. If the cab itself is, indeed, such an important part of the tone, it's going to be very difficult to change for another, as most cabs, whilst having maybe their differences, are designed to colour very little; not enough to make the sound so distinctive as to be essential, I'd have thought. I may be wrong, of course, but I find the notion rather odd, that's all. 

Bass cabs, especially the tweeterless variety, which are the only ones you really want to mic up live anyway, don't sound like PA cabs. If you want the FOH to sound like the bass cab then close micing is a very short route to success.

They might have to trim some lows from the bass channel if they are doing silly things with the subs for kickdrum, but they would probably have to trim more from the DI.

[EBS_freak]

6 hours ago, BadHands said:

Thanks for the answers @EBS_freak!

So by that rationale, if the bass amp's contribution to tone can be achieved simply with an amp sim at the desk, why isn't this also done with guitars? DI post FX, and amp sim to achieve desired colouration. If the same compromise can be made, why is it always a given that bass players will make it?

I'm not trying to split hairs - just trying to reconcile it in my own head. 

It is regularly done - Kemper, Axed FX, Helix is becoming more common place.

Metal bands - eg those with historically loud stages - were amongst the first to cotton on. Have a look at my Katy Perry vid previously. Have a look at Metallica’s setup. They are backlineless - predominantly IEM with the odd wedge. Additionally, for touring bands that can’t afford to travel with their own kit, digital modelling is a god send. A rig can be carried on a USB stick abs loaded onto any hire kit.

[JeezyMcNuggles]

On 07/04/2021 at 08:07, BadHands said:

Hi all! 

Was deep in a YouTube hole yesterday and sat through a few videos of how certain live music channels record their audio, and sure enough, EVERYONE just used a DI/Line out from the bass amp.. 

Is there a particular reason this happens? Is capturing a bass sound more difficult with microphones than DI? Does this not also apply to guitarists as well? 

Not looking to rant, just genuinely curious as to why this is such a tenacious occurrence. 

Thanks! 

Di, for bass, is the best way to get a clean, powerful, full signal to the PA. And, can be done at any volume. Guitar frequencies are different, and so much of the guitar tone is speaker break up and cab structure. Bass is bass. The cleaner, the better. Even when it's a dirty tone.

[EBS_freak]

8 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

The only reason is seated in the personality traits that make bassists easier to push over than guitarists.

1 more full range mic on stage isn't going to wreck a mix.

1 more flat response mic that the bassist has carefully selected in his budget isn't any trouble to sub for the DI box on stage.

All you have to do is be organised to mic your cab before they get to you.

When they say 'here's the bass DI' you say 'please have a listen to this'. If your rig tone is pleasing to the band mix on stage it will not be out of place in the room mix.

It's on the sound crew to EQ the room with the FOH. It's your job to be quiet enough that it's possible.

I wouldn’t say that personalities are the key driver. The sound reproduction needs of a bass and guitar are very different. The use of low frequencies from a bass player isn’t totally comparable to the sounds being reproduced by the guitarist. I know there are some exceptions - eg White Stripes/Royal Blood.

1 more mic could wreck a mix. Every time you double the mic count on stage you are losing 3dB of headroom. So if you are crammed on a small stage/performance that is subject to a lot a lot of reflections, chances are you are going to run into problems sooner or later.

This is why it is super important that all the mics on the drums are gated as much as possible as they are singularly accountable for the most open mics. It’s not great to gate all mics when not in use. Gated vocals tend to sound clipped at the start - you can kind of get away with it on backing vocals but certainly not on lead vocals. This is what the video I posted of the guy riding the faders is effectively doing - taking people in and out the mix to avoid spill and greatly reduce the chance of feedback. Makes the mix sound way better.

Naff vocal mic technique is another area where you can lose a lot of headroom. If your singers are not “on” the mic, you are pumping the gain and reducing to pickup the singer but also raising the amount of spill into your mix.

In a pro environment, a sound engineer will always use their own choice of mics - not one that has been carefully selected by the bassplayer. From an engineering point, it is important that you know and trust your mics and their behaviours. Some mics will have naturally hot frequencies - and it’s about knowing that to be able to counteract them and avoid potential feedback.

An open bass mic is particularly annoying is that you can’t high pass it as you want to capture the sub frequencies to FoH. Those low frequencies have to be present from the cab in order for the mic to pick them up - hence you are going to be introducing that low end mush onto the stage that makes hearing yourself more difficult and also increases low end spill into other mics. Yeah, you can high pass - but if you start hi passing evening, your mix soon starts sounding thin. As pointed out earlier in the threads, a male voice for example, has a lot of low end content that you don’t want to high pass. As an extreme example, imagine Barry White this a high pass filter on his mic. It just wouldn’t have sounded like Barry White. So yeah, you could lift the bass coming out of your cab speakers to avoid these issues - but foh will want a DI to have those low end frequencies for use.

Anyway - back to the “if your rig tone is pleasing to the band mix on stage it will not be out of place in the room mix.” - this is all founded in a big assumption that the bass rig is not heard over the sound of the PA - and that it is not being detrimental to the foh mix (through spill)

I’m not sure what you are quite saying in the last para - typically and EQing to the room would be via pink noise and prior to the audience coming in. Naturally the sound changes again once the audience is in so a good ear from behind the desk should be able to notch out any trouble some nodes. Of course, the big advantage of silent stages is that the sound of the room becomes the only major variable.

[Beer of the Bass]

Where I do see bass cabs being miked in larger venues, there's usually a DI running too. So I guess they probably are using the mic mostly for the midrange character and high end roll-off of the cab, and getting clean lows from the DI. But that means two channels for the bass, which won't always be considered worth doing.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Beer of the Bass

[Cuzzie]

My amp has 3 DI possibilities 

Clean low DI

High distortion channel DI

Mixed signal DI

Easiest is to take the mixed one, but a good soundie could take what he wanted and mix at artists and venue sonic mix capability  will.

[EBS_freak]

3 hours ago, Beer of the Bass said:

Where I do see bass cabs being miked in larger venues, there's usually a DI running too. So I guess they probably are using the mic mostly for the midrange character and high end roll-off of the cab, and getting clean lows from the DI. But that means two channels for the bass, which won't always be considered worth doing.

It’s common to use an external DI independent from the amp - so if the amp does die, the show can still go on. These may be a nice powered DI, or a passive/phantom DI. If the former and the DI dies, a quick change from the stage hand sorts it.

[EBS_freak]

2 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

My amp has 3 DI possibilities 

Clean low DI

High distortion channel DI

Mixed signal DI

Easiest is to take the mixed one, but a good soundie could take what he wanted and mix at artists and venue sonic mix capability  will.

In which case the engineer will just roll their eyes 😛

[Cuzzie]

27 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

In which case the engineer will just roll their eyes 😛

With joy - tweakers dream - or standard fare

Edited April 10, 2021 by Cuzzie

[Lozz196]

I remember playing a gig where the sound engineer wanted to mix a clean pre-eq signal with my Sansamp (usually just Sansamp DI’d), explaining he wanted to keep the lows clean and only the highs driven. Many people who followed the band came up to me afterwards and asked me what was wrong with the bass that night, I didn’t have to say anything, I just pointed. With that one decision he ruined the sound of the band that night - as our fans pointed out. Fans who had paid £18 I should add.

[Cuzzie]

13 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I remember playing a gig where the sound engineer wanted to mix a clean pre-eq signal with my Sansamp (usually just Sansamp DI’d), explaining he wanted to keep the lows clean and only the highs driven. Many people who followed the band came up to me afterwards and asked me what was wrong with the bass that night, I didn’t have to say anything, I just pointed. With that one decision he ruined the sound of the band that night - as our fans pointed out. Fans who had paid £18 I should add.

Nightmare if not properly done, glorious if done well

[Lozz196]

Yeah it was a real shame, my sound was only driven when hit hard, and quite clear & defined. By adding in pre-eq he essentially Motowned the bass for that gig, making it much warmer and more traditional Precision like, whereas Duff McKagan would be a better area to think of for what I did.

[Cuzzie]

Absolutely - a big faux pas.

I am lucky my amp takes care of all that to switch between those sounds easily

[BadHands]

Thanks again @EBS_freak.

I'm trying to find my compromise before I get to that situation, so I can make it easy for everyone with no further compromises necessary. 

I'm thinking of effected but clean DI out, before gain stages, then gain stages to the amp and mic'ed. Then a high pass filter can be used as DI will have taken care of the lows.