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Al Krow

Bugera "2000W" with 3x12AX7 valve pre (this should peak your interest)

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13 hours ago, The59Sound said:

Which one of these would be best for adding a bit of grit to your sound? 

Neither in my opinion. Both amps are pretty clean sounding. 

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10 hours ago, Muzz said:

If appearances weren't everything then they might've designed something different to the Streamliner, but they didn't. They made an amp with the same (nearly) layout and same concept and whoops, it looks the same.

A better analogy from the same company would be a BDI21. I've got one of them, and it does the job. At about a quarter of the price of a Sansamp. Interestingly, it doesn't look the same. Perhaps they were a bit more worried about Tech21 knocking on their door than the soon-to-be-defunct GB...

It doesn't look "the same" but it does bear a strong resemblance. 

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I always find the hating on Bugera / Behringer utterly pointless. Is it a copy of another amp? Probably. Most of Behringers stuff is a copy of something else. Would I pay (in this example) £250 for the amp? Absofeckinglutely! Would I pay the best part of a grand for the amp it's based on? Not in a million years. I'm a weekend warrior not a professional musician. I simply don't have that much cash, or even the desire to spend that much cash on gear even if I had it. So are the companies who make the original amp losing out to the cheaper copy? Absolutely not. If the copy didn't exist then I still wouldn't be buying the original amp, and the people who want the original amp wouldn't buy the cheaper version. What Behringer do is supply decent quality gear at an unbelievable price for those of us who can't afford to spend thousands on top end brands. As well as supplying tons of gear to schools and academies who buy it for the same reason, and introduce whole new generations of people to playing music. Long live Behringer! 

Edited by Newfoundfreedom
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There isn’t any Behringer hating going on in my opinion, I do see fierce defence of Behringer to a point where people stop seeing nuance.

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1 hour ago, HazBeen said:

There isn’t any Behringer hating going on in my opinion, I do see fierce defence of Behringer to a point where people stop seeing nuance.

That's an interesting perspective. Coming from the other side of the debate all I thought I saw was a queue of people attacking the brand in ways entirely free from nuance, subtlety, wit or reason.

That's my fault for being defensive - as if I was being attacked for my choice of gear. I'm not of course, I'm just being intolerant of other people's opinions.

I need to be less ready to rush to judgement and more prepared to respond with a little perspective.

So thank you.

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1 hour ago, HazBeen said:

There isn’t any Behringer hating going on in my opinion...

Just read back through the entire thread(!) and actually there's not been any Behringer hating per se; just an understandable annoyance from everyone that they have advertised their gear as 2000W which is a very unhelpfully misleading peak W number rather than using the industry standard RMS measure, and which (from an earlier post) they have confirmed is in the 400W to 500W range.

Kinda shame 'cos I'd certainly be more rather than less likely to buy their stuff if they were being open and honest about its capability. Even with that shooting themselves in the foot (from my perspective anyway) headline, this does still seem an incredibly good value piece of kit for what it is delivering. And that's backed up fellow BCers (stewblack, ebozz, chienetc) who have bought this amp and reporting back they are very happy with it.

Edited by Al Krow

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30 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Just read back through the entire thread(!) and actually there's not been any Behringer hating per se; just an understandable annoyance from everyone that they have advertised their gear as 2000W which is a very unhelpfully misleading peak W number rather than using the industry standard RMS measure, and which (from an earlier post) they have confirmed is in the 400W to 500W range.

Kinda shame 'cos I'd certainly be more rather than less likely to buy their stuff if they were being open and honest about its capability. Even with that shooting themselves in the foot (from my perspective anyway) headline, this does still seem an incredibly good value piece of kit for what it is delivering. And that's backed up fellow BCers (stewblack, ebozz, chienetc) who have bought this amp and reporting back they are very happy with it.

That's the thing. There really is no agreed upon "industry standard". There is also some degree of debate regarding whether RMS ratings are the best representation of bass amp performance. Finally, I'm not sure how you got the 400 to 500 watt range. 

Edited by ebozzz

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10 minutes ago, ebozzz said:

Finally, I'm not sure how you got the 400 to 500 watt range. 

Based on this earlier post:

On 22/10/2018 at 12:38, Bridgehouse said:

Behringer themselves have confirmed that the 2000w is peak output - and in tests it peaks at around 1800w so it's close. 

However, they also do confirm if you ask them that RMS Constant output is in the 400-500w region as stated above. 

The thing is, the headline peak figure is also a bit misleading, as in normal circumstances and playing, it's extremely unlikely anyone would ever exceed 900w peak. 

But, as has also been stated, it's still remarkably cheap for a valve-pre 500w @ 4 ohms. 

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1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

Based on this earlier post:

Al, I think you would be hard pressed to get anyone from Behringer to state what the amp's rating is in RMS. Believe me, I've tried! That's not how they rate them. Furthermore, when I first acquired my Veyron, most of the amps that I owned where considered to be 500 watts RMS @ 4 ohms. The Veyron was clearly more powerful. Now? I've got two amps that are rated at 800 watts RMS @ 4 ohms and my Veyron Mosfet. The Veyron is at least comparable in power to those two amps (Quilter Bass Block 800 & Ashdown Rootmaster RM-800 EVO).

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1 hour ago, ebozzz said:

Al, I think you would be hard pressed to get anyone from Behringer to state what the amp's rating is in RMS. Believe me, I've tried! That's not how they rate them. Furthermore, when I first acquired my Veyron, most of the amps that I owned where considered to be 500 watts RMS @ 4 ohms. The Veyron was clearly more powerful. Now? I've got two amps that are rated at 800 watts RMS @ 4 ohms and my Veyron Mosfet. The Veyron is at least comparable in power to those two amps (Quilter Bass Block 800 & Ashdown Rootmaster RM-800 EVO).

My comment was from a well respected U.K. based amp repairer I know who contacted them for schematics and so forth for a repair. Output watts do not equal volume. You can have two amps output the same wattage but differ in SPL 

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1 hour ago, Bridgehouse said:

Output watts do not equal volume. You can have two amps output the same wattage but differ in SPL 

Hmmm...you're going to have to explain that one to me.

SPL is surely is going to be a function of the efficiency of the cab? An output watt from one amp fed (to the same cab) by one amp is surely going to be the same as an output watt from another amp? I know there's a separate debate around "tube watts" being louder. But for me, anyway, that is less about SPL and more about complex harmonics and the way we hear something as being loud.

If ebozz is playing his three amps through the same cabs...

Edited by Al Krow

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3 hours ago, Reggaebass said:

I think I’ll still be investing in one  400w is enough for me and i love the look of it 

Just noted you're also East London based...please gimme a shout if / when the thing has landed! :) 

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1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

Just noted you're also East London based...please gimme a shout if / when the thing has landed! :) 

Will do, Absolutely, you’re more than welcome 👍

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20 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Hmmm...you're going to have to explain that one to me.

SPL is surely is going to be a function of the efficiency of the cab? An output watt from one amp fed (to the same cab) by one amp is surely going to be the same as an output watt from another amp? I know there's a separate debate around "tube watts" being louder. But for me, anyway, that is less about SPL and more about complex harmonics and the way we hear something as being loud.

If ebozz is playing his three amps through the same cabs...

Sure. Of course the cab efficiency will have a huge impact on SPL and overall volume - but watts are just a unit of power output - an amps ability to drive a speaker. Two amps of equal wattage driving exactly the same cab *may* output the same volume level overall, but individual characteristics of the amps themselves will affect the output and may affect volume as well. More importantly, they may affect perceived volume - more mids/treble compared to more bass will translate as different perceived volumes to our ears as well. Ultimately you can’t rely on a watts rating to directly and absolutely translate to an actual sound pressure level even through the same cab.

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My experience of this is the old Trace Elliot scenario, discussed at length in other threads.  My old AH250, with 250 Trace Elliot Watts, is the loudest amp I have ever owned - the list of shame includes TC Electronic RH750, GenzBenz Streamliner 900, Mark Bass Little Mark Tube 800 and currently (although the loudest of the bunch) Quilter Bass Block 800.  Even the Mesa Boogie Prodigy Four:88 is quieter.  Edit, perversely it is louder than my AH300.

Edited by Paul S
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Just now, Paul S said:

My experience of this is the old Trace Elliot scenario, discussed at length in other threads.  My old AH250, with 250 Trace Elliot Watts, is the loudest amp I have ever owned - the list of shame includes TC Electronic RH750, GenzBenz Streamliner 900, Mark Bass Little Mark Tube 800 and currently (although the loudest of the bunch) Quilter Bass Black 800.  Even the Mesa Boogie Prodigy Four:88 is quieter.

Which was kind of my point. Each manufacturer will state their measured output - some will undercall some overcall (some quite considerably) and that is the whole problem with trying to compare and give a “real” watts figure. All things being equal, and based on an average, the amp tech I spoke to said the Bugera was “around” 500w. But does that mean it’s louder than your AH250? Nope. 

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2 hours ago, Bridgehouse said:

Sure. Of course the cab efficiency will have a huge impact on SPL and overall volume - but watts are just a unit of power output - an amps ability to drive a speaker. Two amps of equal wattage driving exactly the same cab *may* output the same volume level overall, but individual characteristics of the amps themselves will affect the output and may affect volume as well. More importantly, they may affect perceived volume - more mids/treble compared to more bass will translate as different perceived volumes to our ears as well. Ultimately you can’t rely on a watts rating to directly and absolutely translate to an actual sound pressure level even through the same cab.

Ok what you're saying is:

1. The stated power output rating by manufacturers isn't entirely or always accurate!!

2. SPL doesn't necessarily equate to perceived volume (given our ears are particularly attuned to the human vocal frequency range and are less good at hearing very low or very high frequencies) 

No disagreement there. But those two points, I think you'll agree, are somewhat more nuanced statements than your initial comment:

4 hours ago, Bridgehouse said:

... You can have two amps output the same wattage but differ in SPL 

That's where I was disagreeing. If the amps are actually outputting the same watts (correctly stated / measured) with the same cab this should result in the same SPL.

Edited by Al Krow

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1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

Ok what your saying is:

1. The stated power output rating by manufacturers isn't entirely or always accurate!!

2. SPL doesn't necessarily equate to perceived volume (given our ears are particularly attuned to the human vocal frequency range and are less good at hearing very low or very high frequencies) 

No disagreement there. But those two points, I think you'll agree, are somewhat more nuanced statements than your initial comment:

That's where I was disagreeing. If the amps are actually outputting the same watts (correctly stated / measured) with the same cab this should result in the same SPL.

I’d say I 90% agree.. but..

If amp A is voiced differently to amp B then the subtle change in output (more or less mids, treble, bass, “flavour” etc) will give a subtly different sound pressure level - imagine the speakers in the cab are focused more on upper mids - an amp with a more scooped sound is going to result in the cab outputting a slightly lower SPL.

Now, two amps with the same measured output *and the same tone/EQ etc* will indeed output the same SPL when connected to the same cab 

 

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4 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

If amp A is voiced differently to amp B then the subtle change in output (more or less mids, treble, bass, “flavour” etc) will give a subtly different sound pressure level - imagine the speakers in the cab are focused more on upper mids - an amp with a more scooped sound is going to result in the cab outputting a slightly lower SPL.

 

5 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

(I guess I’m talking about speaker efficiency for certain frequencies)

Aha!

Well if we're getting into the realms of very nuanced / subtle differences on SPL - I'll concede the remaining 10% (maybe make that 2%) :)

 

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Just now, Al Krow said:

 

Aha!

Well if we're getting into the realms of very nuanced / subtle differences on SPL - I'll concede the remaining 10% (maybe make that 2%) :)

 

Haha! Thing is, it might be subtle, but for perceived volume it could be quite a lot. I’ve always thought similar amps (power wise) sounded louder/quieter based on their voicing even if in reality they were the same real output power

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5 hours ago, Bridgehouse said:

My comment was from a well respected U.K. based amp repairer I know who contacted them for schematics and so forth for a repair. Output watts do not equal volume. You can have two amps output the same wattage but differ in SPL 

I don't know who the person that you are referring to would have contacted that could have accurately provided that information. I do know that Uli Behringer would not and stated that they don't rate their amps in RMS because it doesn't accurately represent how an amp will perform for bass applications.

Quote

Your question about power amplifier ratings is an interesting one for several reasons. Although over the years there have been attempts at standardizing the way power amplifiers are measured and rated, it appears to me that even in the face of legislation, there continues to be no consensus in the pro audio industry.

Forgive me for stating what you already know , but for some readers a bit of history may be in order.

There was a time when the accepted method for measuring amplifier power was to inject a sinusoidal signal (usually 1 kHz) and measure the output just as the sine wave began to distort. This type of measurement assumed that the amplifier would be operated in that manner, although we were all aware that actual program material was very different to a sine wave. Regardless, this RMS measurement became a standard.

While there have been several variations on this theme, the net effect of standard practice has always been that power measurements have been based on a continuous sinusoidal signal applied at the input. As imperfect as this system may have been, it did allow consumers to compare one amplifier to another and conclude which one had a higher rated power. Sounds good? Not so fast.

The problem with this method is, as most manufacturers and users discovered over time, that it measures a parameter that may not necessarily be the best predictor of actual amplifier performance. Real program material, whether it be music or speech, is very different from a sine wave and it is a leap of faith to correlate one to the other. Imagine a car that is capable of pulling a heavy load up a mountain compared to one that accelerates aggressively; which one is more powerful? It depends on what your objective is.

I believe that this disparity between what was measured and what was really needed was driven by the measurement technology of the day. In fact, the use of a steady-state sine wave is a throw-back to a time before digital oscilloscopes and programmable signal generators, when pretty much any technician could replicate the measurements on their test bench. Regardless of whether it was the “right” measurement, it was at least a measurement that almost anyone could make.

In the last 10-15 years we have seen the emergence of a whole new breed of amplifiers with power ratings in the thousands of watts, not just hundreds. Respected brands such as Lab Gruppen and Powersoft have led the way into this new realm not by measuring amplifiers the “old” way using a steady-state sine wave but by other means that more closely mimic the dynamics of real program material. The objective is to better quantify the performance of their products in the actual environment where they will be used.

Inherent in this approach is a lack of agreed measurement standards and definitions. I have yet to see published documentation on the precise measurement methods and techniques used by these and other manufacturers claiming specifications based on "maximum output power".

I can only assume that capable engineers are using good judgment in creating test routines that inject impulse signals of sufficient amplitude and duration along with periods of reduced energy to arrive at their power ratings. In any event, most manufacturers must consider this proprietary IP as they are not publishing such data currently.

This brings us to the iNUKE series of power amplifiers that BEHRINGER introduced just over a year ago. iNUKE amplifiers were the culmination of extensive research and development in our engineering team around power efficiency. As I have said in other posts we proudly operate one of the most capable power engineering teams in the industry with extensive experience in both SMPS and Class-D amplification.

Our new patent-pending "Class Zero" technology that combines power supply and amplifier into a single stage was in fact a direct outcome of the research the preceded the iNUKE range. With this new "Class Zero" technology, we have been able to design amplifiers with up to 94% efficiency (AC to AC), which is a remarkable increase of 10-15% compared to the most efficient SMPS and Class-D designs. The final component count and cost will have to be seen until the mature design stage, but energy efficiency in light of carbon footprint reduction and green energy is definitely worth pursuing.

I am proud to say that iNUKE amplifiers have become a tremendous commercial success and are now outselling even our EP4000; one of the most successful power amplifiers of all time. They have also earned the praise of users and the press, who have conducted their own independent testing.

While we always support standards and also ensure that all of our products are UL listed and FCC compliant, even though many of our competitors skirt the law (try searching www.fcc.gov to see who has been fined for non-compliance), it appears that power amplifier measurement standards have not kept up with measurement technology.

If such a standard does come to pass, then rest assured that we will follow it right along with venerable competitors such as Lab Gruppen, Powersoft, Crown and QSC among others."

Uli
Last edited by Uli Behringer; 07-08-2012 at 08:40 PM.
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Edited by ebozzz

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32 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

I’ve always thought similar amps (power wise) sounded louder/quieter based on their voicing even if in reality they were the same real output power

When making the mental comparison can you recall if the amps were set at full volume, with the volume adjusted down by the volume dial on the same bass? Pups obviously have a massive part to play here too.

Given the non-linearity of the volume dials on many amps, it's going to otherwise be difficult to assess what wattage a particular amp is putting out at a particular setting, so hard to know if you were comparing apples with apples.

If the amps were simply at different gain / master vol settings i.e. in effect one was turned up and the other wasn't(!) it wouldn't have been a particularly meaningful comparison.

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8 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

When making the mental comparison can you recall if the amps were set at full volume, with the volume adjusted down by the volume dial on the same bass? Pups obviously have a massive part to play here too.

Given the non-linearity of the volume dials on many amps, it's going to otherwise be difficult to assess what wattage a particular amp is putting out at a particular setting, so hard to know if you were comparing apples with apples.

If the amps were simply at different gain / master vol settings i.e. in effect one was turned up and the other wasn't(!) it wouldn't have been a particularly meaningful comparison.

In a rehearsal room, we side by sided two rated 500w amps of popular brand, into a 4x10

Same bass with same vol and tone setting (maxed) and both amps maxed with eq totally flat and no compression or any other effects. 

One was a Markbass, the other an Aguilar (both class D)

Which one do you think sounded loudest?

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