New Rig Or Not?

[Lozz196]

16 hours ago, Sparky Mark said:

I used to have a CMD121P combo to which I added a NY121P cab. The increase in volume sounds more like four times and the fullness of sound is amazing. Do it now!!! As I already had a LM3 I sold the combo and bought another NY121P cab for my lightweight rig of LM3 plus two NY121P cabs. 

This. You love the sound and portability of the CMD121P, then adding the NY121 cab doubles up on the sound, makes it much fuller, and the portability is still there. I find that with swapping rigs it`s best to do it when the sound from the current one isn`t getting what you require - in this case you have what you require sound-wise, you just need more of it. As another previous user of CMD/NY rigs adding in that extra cab makes for a pretty startling change to the size/amount of sound available.

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 27, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[chris_b]

10 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

This.

. . . and this.

If you think that two 112 cabs will sound twice as good as one 112 cab, prepare to be amazed. 

They will sound a lot better than that.

Edited July 21, 2018 by chris_b

[SuperSeagull]

Lots of great advice here, appreciate it all  

Not being able to try a BF in a shop is a bit of a pain although as I’m just a few miles away from Brighton I wonder if Alex might have a demo room I could visit. And of course I’m aware he does a 30 day trial scheme. 

I totally get the pragmatic and tonal upside to adding a MB 1x12 to my combo. It’s hard to argue against. But you know that feeling when you just want to try something different.......and it’s getting that “cut through the mix tone” at higher levels that I wonder if a BF or other high end cab could do for me  

I think I’m most likely to look out for a s/h MB cab as a quick fix and then spend time trying out gear for a longer term solution. As somebody said, it will always be gear that has value in the s/h market. @Cuzzie does that mean we can still be friends?

Meantime I’ve some 20 year old Ashdown gear (the ABM 1x15 I mentioned originally and an ABM C110 combo) to shift to generate some funds and clear space for a new cab. Even 20 years ago I was sold on the idea of a combo plus extension cab!

Edited July 21, 2018 by SuperSeagull

[Sparky Mark]

16 minutes ago, SuperSeagull said:

Lots of great advice here, appreciate it all  

Not being able to try a BF in a shop is a bit of a pain although as I’m just a few miles away from Brighton I wonder if Alex might have a demo room I could visit. And of course I’m aware he does a 30 day trial scheme. 

I totally get the pragmatic and tonal upside to adding a MB 1x12 to my combo. It’s hard to argue against. But you know that feeling when you just want to try something different.......and it’s getting that “cut through the mix tone” at higher levels that I wonder if a BF or other high end can could do for me  

I think I’m most likely to look out for a s/h MB cab as a quick fix and then spend time trying out gear for a longer term solution. As somebody said, it will always be gear that has value in the s/h market. @Cuzzie does that mean we can still be friends?

Meantime I’ve some 20 year old Ashdown gear (the ABM 1x15 I mentioned originally and an ABM C110 combo) to shift to generate some funds and clear space for a new cab. Even 20 years ago I was sold on the idea of a combo plus extension cab!

I think I'm the one that's irked cuzzie! The small markbass cabs are quite popular due to all the above reasons, so waiting for one to appear might take a while.  Better to add a wanted thread in the marketplace; you could get something sorted sooner.

[Cuzzie]

@Sparky Mark nah, I got rhino hide buddy, and you have the same name as one of me fave ever Man Utd footballers.

@SuperSeagull I did think you may be that way with your avatar name! Absolutely being that way based you should go to BF with your combo and try out, there is no harm they do have the capacity to demo. They also do loan cabs as well as take backs. If anything it could prove that your MB is right for you taking into account price points etc.

You are both simultaneously on Santa’s naughty list and my xmas card list as well

Edited July 21, 2018 by Cuzzie

[SuperSeagull]

9 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

@Sparky Mark nah, I got rhino hide buddy, and you have the same name as one of me fave ever Man Utd footballers.

@SuperSeagull I did think you may be that way with your avatar name! Absolutely being that way based you should go to BF with your combo and try out, there is no harm they do have the capacity to demo. They also do loan cabs as well as take backs. If anything it could prove that your MB is right for you taking into account price points etc.

You are both simultaneously on Santa’s naughty list and my xmas card list as well

Well spotted. Looking forward to seeing your boys at The Amex again soon (if I’ve twigged your team correctly). Same result as last season will do nicely. 

Didnt realise BF do loan cabs, that sounds like a plan.

[Cuzzie]

Oh crikey, glory Man Utd years are gone, now it’s ego years with poorinho at the helm, but I do like other teams doing well, makes it more interesting.

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, SuperSeagull said:

I totally get the pragmatic and tonal upside to adding a MB 1x12 to my combo. It’s hard to argue against. But you know that feeling when you just want to try something different.......and it’s getting that “cut through the mix tone” at higher levels that I wonder if a BF or other high end cab could do for me  

If cutting through the mix is a key point, then I doubt a BF 212 is going to deliver a great deal more than two 1x12 MB cabs. 

The focus here for me would be sorting out EQ (e.g. boosting mids, tightening up the low end with HPF) and getting some killer PUPs on your bass (in my case Nordstrand big singles). 

... but that's a whole another story!

Edited July 21, 2018 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, BassManGraham said:

Like many bass players I slap a lot at home, but rarely in public at gigs! Oh er missus! I find MB gear very flexible the VPF gives a variable mid scoop for slapping and the VLE a great old school, treble roll off . Quilter Bass Block 800 does this very nicely indeed, but enough from me already! 

Never thought about using the VPF for use with slap as boosting mids to cut through in the mix, rather than 'scooping' them, has been the order of the day for me; and my Markbass combo mostly gets rolled out for gigs rather than home-use in the Krow bass-ment. So the VPF has been pretty religiously set to nil. But if you're cutting the mids and leaving 'more' space for the treble,  I can see that  working for "home slappers"!

Ok, something for me to include on my to do list  

[Sparky Mark]

I was a Mark King fan back in the 80s and that great slap tone was all about smiley Trace Elliot EQ shapes with loads of power and cone area to compensate for the lack of mids. Slapping with mids flat sounds really hard and clanky, so for those that want to have slap sections you'll most likely want to kick in mid cut, volume boost and compression so as not to kill the front row of drinkers. It's still a wonderful thing when used correctly (sparingly) on those classic RATM, RHCP, Brit Funk, etc., etc., favourites. 

[SuperSeagull]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

If cutting through the mix is a key point, then I doubt a BF 212 is going to deliver a great deal more than two 1x12 MB cabs. 

The focus here for me would be sorting out EQ (e.g. boosting mids, tightening up the low end with HPF) and getting some killer PUPs on your bass (in my case Nordstrand big singles). 

... but that's a whole another story!

The rest of the signal chain I’m happy with, only taken me 40 years...!

[chris_b]

You can call Barefaced and ask to try any of their demo cabs. If they have one there they will say "come over".

I borrowed a demo Super Midget for a week earlier in the year. They are very accommodating.

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

I borrowed a demo Super Midget for a week earlier in the year. They are very accommodating.

What did you think of the SM, Chris? How did it stack up against their other 1x12s? 

I've always been attracted by its compact size and lightweight 21 lbs (with silver cloth grille) and it says on the BF website it can handle up to 600W RMS amps, which should be plenty of headroom.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Al Krow

[Sparky Mark]

I wonder how much power a good single 12" speaker can convert to audio output? The rest is dissipated as heat by the voice coil. Higher thermal power  ratings possibly indicate that you can run them at their maximum volume for longer without overheating. It follows that the sensitivity and other parameters such as xmax are more important than thermal rating if you want loudness/headroom.  

Edited July 21, 2018 by Sparky Mark

[Al Krow]

23 minutes ago, Sparky Mark said:

I wonder how much power a good single 12" speaker can convert to audio output? The rest is dissipated as heat by the voice coil. Higher thermal power  ratings possibly indicate that you can run them at their maximum volume or longer without overheating. It follows that the sensitivity and other parameters such as xmax are more important than thermal rating if you want loudness/headroom.  

It is really good point - which is a big reason why I settled on a 2x10 rather than a 1x12.

The BF SM and it's bigger brother, the BB2, output 97dB according to the BF website; whereas my VK 210 and the BF SuperTwin are both rated at 100 dB (which is theoretically twice as as loud as 97 dB, if I remember correctly). So I guess you'd need to end up getting two 1x12s to broadly match my 210 or a 212, and if you're talking about BF you are definitely starting to get £spendy!

My DG M900 has the theoretical ability to put out 115 dB although, as you say, a bunch of that will be dissipated as heat before being converted to sound energy...

Edited July 21, 2018 by Al Krow

[SuperSeagull]

19 minutes ago, Sparky Mark said:

I wonder how much power a good single 12" speaker can convert to audio output? The rest is dissipated as heat by the voice coil. Higher thermal power  ratings possibly indicate that you can run them at their maximum volume or longer without overheating. It follows that the sensitivity and other parameters such as xmax are more important than thermal rating if you want loudness/headroom.  

And isn’t that in large part the original problem I’m trying to address? It’s an interesting subject.  

[chris_b]

The reason Alex has a successful company and selling his cabs all around the world is because whatever others may wonder, he knows this stuff and you can be sure that he's taken care of all the technical downsides. That doesn't guarantee that you'll like the sound of his cabs but they'll do exactly the job he specifies on the website.

Al, the Super Midget complimented my Super Compact perfectly. I was running 2 SC's at the time and the SC + SM gave me slightly less bottom end and a lot more mids, punch and top. Which is exactly what I expected from a smaller 112 with a tweeter. The pair of them went very loud, sounded very fat, full and clear and shook the room.

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

Al, the Super Midget complimented my Super Compact perfectly. I was running 2 SC's at the time and the SC + SM gave me slightly less bottom end and a lot more mids, punch and top. Which is exactly what I expected from a smaller 112 with a tweeter. The pair of them went very loud, sounded very fat, full and clear and shook the room.

Thanks Chris. If I've understood you correctly, the SM, if we were looking to get it as a stand alone cab, excels at the mids and top, but is perhaps a little lacking at the low end? To put it another way: probably not the cab to get as a 'stand alone' solution for your typical gigging electric bass player (and either the SC or the BB2 would be better in that regard)?

Edited July 21, 2018 by Al Krow

[FinnDave]

1 hour ago, Sparky Mark said:

I wonder how much power a good single 12" speaker can convert to audio output? The rest is dissipated as heat by the voice coil. Higher thermal power  ratings possibly indicate that you can run them at their maximum volume or longer without overheating. It follows that the sensitivity and other parameters such as xmax are more important than thermal rating if you want loudness/headroom.  

My Super Compact is seriously loud and bassy. I power it with a Rootmaster 800 head, but into an 8 ohm cab it's about 500 max. Never had it above approx 1/3rd volume. Had I bought a Super Compact originally, I doubt that I'd have bothered with the Super Twin, but on the odd occasions I decide to trot it out, it does sound great, but too loud for most gigs.

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, SuperSeagull said:

And isn’t that in large part the original problem I’m trying to address? It’s an interesting subject.  

There are two parts to your volume issue.

1) The CMD121P only puts out 300W via its single 12 " speaker. 

If your amp delivered 500W via a 12" speaker then you would get an increase in volume. My MB AC 121 Lite does this as does the Eich BC Pro 112 Combo and the latter only weighs 31 lbs!

Both of these will be louder than your CMD 121P as a standalone combo and I suspect could be loud enough for your needs? I've not had a volume issue in several years of gigging with my 500W combo and I play with a 5 or 6 piece full rock band. 

2) However you need an extension speaker to get the full 500W from your amp head (and the same is true e.g for the Fender Rumble 500). If you do get an extension cab, you not only release the full 500W , you also have a 2 x 12 speaker set up. This will be louder than my 500W with its single 1x12 set up.

In summary, in terms of volume:

CMD 121P at 300W via 1 x 12" speaker < 500W amp head through an equivalent or better 1 x 12" speaker (this actually may be loud enough for your needs) < CMD 121P at 500W via 2 x 12" speakers

(The quality of the speaker / driver displacement etc. will obviously have a bearing on all of this).

Edited July 21, 2018 by Al Krow

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Thanks Chris. If I've understood you correctly, the SM, if we were looking to get it as a stand alone cab, excels at the mids and top, but is perhaps a little lacking at the low end? To put it another way: probably not the cab to get as a 'stand alone' solution for your typical gigging electric bass player (and either the SC or the BB2 would be better in that regard)?

It wouldn't work in my loud band but I could easily gig with a stand-alone SM in my other bands. There wouldn't be as much low end as with the SC (pretty big) or BB2 (huge), but I don't think "lacking" is the right word at all. In the right circumstances there would be enough low end for me.

IMO all these cabs are great stand-alone solutions and they easily pair with themselves and each other. Alex seems to have thought this through, and they compliment each other. Which cab(s) you chose is purely down to your sound preference and playing circumstances.

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 27, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Al Krow]

On 21/07/2018 at 19:39, chris_b said:

It wouldn't work in my loud band but I could easily gig with a stand-alone SM in my other bands.

Would a standalone SC or BB2 work with your 'loud' band or would you always need two 1x12s for that? (What do you have in terms of instruments and vocals in your loud band?)

Edited July 23, 2018 by Al Krow

[chris_b]

In the loud band, when I owned Bergs I used 3 112 cabs, then a 212 and 112. Now I'm using BF cabs I always use 2 SC's or lately 2 Two10's. The guitarist uses a Fender Twin which he sometimes links up to second combo.

I could use 1 cab on the "regular" gigs, it's loud enough, but I've used 2 cabs (BF, Bergs, Mesa Boogie, Ampeg) on most gigs for many years because 2 just sounds so much better.