Interesting FRFR story..

[nazzer]

I was going to start a new thread, but this seems like the best place for my FRFR question.

So, I just purchased a QSC K10.2 to use with my Quad Cortex with the intention of going fully ampless. 

I played at a small session with the QSC and found that it was really boomy despite setting a HPF on the QC. In hindsight I think that the problem was I accidentally left the the speaker in 'Bass Amp' mode from when I was trying it out at home and did not turn off the cab on the QC. But it raised the question: what setting do other QSC players use out there when they are using it as an FRFR set up?

Thanks!

[Jack]

K12.2 here. Normally mine are proper wedges, connected to the mixer rather than my bass amp. I just keep it in the standard 'default' setting but I do use the hpf in the mixer. I start at 120Hz (as that's where our subs cross over and I'm usually close enough to hear lots of sub) and go up and down depending. Very rarely, when I do use it straight from the Helix as backline, I set a 50Hz hpf on the Helix and hope for the best.

 

Whilst I'm sure that the 10.2 are slightly different, the traces of the K12.2 in its various modes can be found on Pro Sound Web. If the 10 is anything like the 12, then the bass amp setting is no bassier than the default one, in fact it's slightly flatter.

 

Oh, and update your firmware. Those speakers can brick themselves!

Edited January 1 by Jack

[dave_bass5]

23 minutes ago, nazzer said:

I was going to start a new thread, but this seems like the best place for my FRFR question.

So, I just purchased a QSC K10.2 to use with my Quad Cortex with the intention of going fully ampless. 

I played at a small session with the QSC and found that it was really boomy despite setting a HPF on the QC. In hindsight I think that the problem was I accidentally left the the speaker in 'Bass Amp' mode from when I was trying it out at home and did not turn off the cab on the QC. But it raised the question: what setting do other QSC players use out there when they are using it as an FRFR set up?

Thanks!

Doesn’t the QC have an amp built in? Cant really be ampless with an amp 😂

[Frank Blank]

32 minutes ago, nazzer said:

I was going to start a new thread, but this seems like the best place for my FRFR question.

So, I just purchased a QSC K10.2 to use with my Quad Cortex with the intention of going fully ampless. 

I played at a small session with the QSC and found that it was really boomy despite setting a HPF on the QC. In hindsight I think that the problem was I accidentally left the the speaker in 'Bass Amp' mode from when I was trying it out at home and did not turn off the cab on the QC. But it raised the question: what setting do other QSC players use out there when they are using it as an FRFR set up?

Thanks!

I have the QSC K12.2 and the guitarist in my duo has the K10.2, we both use the default setting.

[Greg Edwards69]

16 hours ago, nazzer said:

I was going to start a new thread, but this seems like the best place for my FRFR question.

So, I just purchased a QSC K10.2 to use with my Quad Cortex with the intention of going fully ampless. 

I played at a small session with the QSC and found that it was really boomy despite setting a HPF on the QC. In hindsight I think that the problem was I accidentally left the the speaker in 'Bass Amp' mode from when I was trying it out at home and did not turn off the cab on the QC. But it raised the question: what setting do other QSC players use out there when they are using it as an FRFR set up?

Thanks!

Whilst I don't have a QSC speaker (yet) so I can't advise on the best dsp settings, you could try stacking a couple of hpfs in series. The hpfs employed in these devices are usually fairly gentle with a -12dB/oct slope, so stacking them will result in a more aggressive low cut.

 

I have a fixed hpf in each preset on my helix (around 50hz) that gets sent to FOH and my headrush frfr speaker, and another variable one in the Helix's global eq that only affects the frfr speaker, letting me adjust it for the room. You could do the same with your set up and have hpfs in your QC and another variable one in the QSC speaker.

 

FWIW, I would probably go with the K10.2 as well. QSC themselves recommend it for bass with FOH support and from Bob Lee at QSC himself in response to my question.

[Jack]

2 hours ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

...FWIW, I would probably go with the K10.2 as well. QSC themselves recommend it for bass with FOH support and from Bob Lee at QSC himself in response to my question.

You know, that's a valid point. I wanted my pair of speakers to be able to be a spare pa when needed, but if it was just for monitoring on a stage I would have gone for the 10.2. Hell, to be honest if I'd know how infrequently they'd have been either pa or room-filling backline I might have something from Thomann own brand or similar. Covering the tiny stages I play with enough bass to be heard is surprisingly undemanding.

[Greg Edwards69]

50 minutes ago, Jack said:

You know, that's a valid point. I wanted my pair of speakers to be able to be a spare pa when needed, but if it was just for monitoring on a stage I would have gone for the 10.2. Hell, to be honest if I'd know how infrequently they'd have been either pa or room-filling backline I might have something from Thomann own brand or similar. Covering the tiny stages I play with enough bass to be heard is surprisingly undemanding.

Indeed. I don't even use my frfr speaker for gigs anymore since we added a sub to our PA system. And I only kept using it when the guitarists ditched their backline to fill out the missing lowend from our previously sub-less PA.

 

Now I have this big lump of a 12" frfr (well, it's big to me!) that I only cart to rehearsals so I'm looking to downsize. I did have the smaller Headrush 108 speaker too, but regardless of the specs, it just didn't have the low-end heft of my bigger 112 and had a different-sounding profile. I also realise that my Headrush 112 isn't the most accurate thing in the world, even though it does sound pretty good with bass - I just don't get the same great sound out front.

 

A 10" seems to be the sweet spot. I just need to decide whether to go for the superior and more accurate QSC K10.2, or a Yamaha DXR10 that will more closely match our DXR12-powered PA speakers. If I could dial my patches in on a DXR10, I stand more chance of them sounding the same in the PA. Although the same could probably be said for the QSC as well.

Edited January 2 by Greg Edwards69

[Frank Blank]

You lot are talking me into a K10.2 which, if I'm not mistaken, was what inspired @Bridgehouse to start this thread up.

[Bridgehouse]

2 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

You lot are talking me into a K10.2 which, if I'm not mistaken, was what inspired @Bridgehouse to start this thread up.

It was. Indeed it was. 

[Frank Blank]

6 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

It was. Indeed it was. 

 

I should know that, as I subsequently bought it off you!

[Jack]

6 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

You lot are talking me into a K10.2 which, if I'm not mistaken, was what inspired @Bridgehouse to start this thread up.

Stuck record alert: update the firmware! 

[nazzer]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I'll have a play around with the HPF to see if that sorts things out. I had one on but don't think I was aggressive enough with it. 

 

And also thanks for the firmware prompts. It was a display model I got from Andertons and fortunately it came updated to the latest version. 

[Frank Blank]

6 minutes ago, Jack said:

Stuck record alert: update the firmware! 

 

Hmmmm, I read something, somewhere that the firmware sometimes bricked the speakers, it was later iterations than mine, which is why I have updated mine. I'll try and find the source of this.

[Jack]

1 minute ago, Frank Blank said:

 

Hmmmm, I read something, somewhere that the firmware sometimes bricked the speakers, it was later iterations than mine, which is why I have updated mine. I'll try and find the source of this.

You might google 'qsc protect mode 4'. I've got a thread on TB, but it's bitten a few people. Free fix if you get it before hand, otherwise you're shipping a speaker to qsc in Buckinghamshire at your own cost then waiting weeks. 

[Frank Blank]

3 minutes ago, Jack said:

You might google 'qsc protect mode 4'. I've got a thread on TB, but it's bitten a few people. Free fix if you get it before hand, otherwise you're shipping a speaker to qsc in Buckinghamshire at your own cost then waiting weeks. 

 

Ahhh, cheers @Jack, that was the problem I was thinking of, I obviously read about it as it was just starting to be talked about and people were panicking.

[nottswarwick]

On 01/01/2024 at 16:53, nazzer said:

I was going to start a new thread, but this seems like the best place for my FRFR question.

So, I just purchased a QSC K10.2 to use with my Quad Cortex with the intention of going fully ampless. 

I played at a small session with the QSC and found that it was really boomy despite setting a HPF on the QC. In hindsight I think that the problem was I accidentally left the the speaker in 'Bass Amp' mode from when I was trying it out at home and did not turn off the cab on the QC. But it raised the question: what setting do other QSC players use out there when they are using it as an FRFR set up?

Thanks!

I found this with my RCF 732.  Boomy on the floor. I surmised that this was due to the fact that as a PA cab it is optimised to be used on a stand, without floor coupling. Obvs this can be eq'd / hpf'd, but I have returned to a head and 12" cab traditional bass amp set up and to be honest I am happier. Not saying FRFR doesn't work, but for me and what I am doing, I prefer the normal amp route.

 

[warwickhunt]

I'm using various ways of amplifying myself depending on band (I'm in 3) and situation.  When using a monitor FRFR I use my QSC K10 (not 10.2) on a speaker stand, head/ear height at the side of the stage; the ease with which you can hear yourself/the band is superb, defo zero 'boom'!  

[SumOne]

Are any of you using a FRFR as your Bass Cab and a mix of the rest of the band's output as a monitor? 

 

I'm in a band that mostly uses in-ears and a mixer to PA, apart from me (and the drummer), I use a Amp/Cab and no IEM or monitor speaker. Often I'm stood behind the PA speakers, next to the drummer and in front of my cab - so I can hear Drums and Bass but not everyone else. I'm looking at getting IEMs, or a monitor wedge, but would changing my Amp/Cab for a FRFR work - can they easily be fed a mix of mostly Bass but also some of the rest of the band for a bit of monitoring? 

[warwickhunt]

16 minutes ago, SumOne said:

Are any of you using a FRFR as your Bass Cab and a mix of the rest of the band's output as a monitor? 

 

I'm in a band that mostly uses in-ears and a mixer to PA, apart from me (and the drummer), I use a Amp/Cab and no IEM or monitor speaker. Often I'm stood behind the PA speakers, next to the drummer and in front of my cab - so I can hear Drums and Bass but not everyone else. I'm looking at getting IEMs, or a monitor wedge, but would changing my Amp/Cab for a FRFR work - can they easily be fed a mix of mostly Bass but also some of the rest of the band for a bit of monitoring? 

 

I've been in and out of where you are at for the last 12-18 months.  If you want to use monitor / FRFR I'd suggest finding a unit that has 2 inputs/channels which are useable together.  Take a line from whatever your bass source is and feed one channel, take a line from the PA (ideally your own aux if it is a digital desk, that you can mix as you want) and feed the other input.  You then have a quick easy manipulation of your bass independent of the PA feed (take your bass out of the PA feed to your monitor as it'll just cloud things).  One final tip/thought - can you mount this monitor/FRFR at ear level on a speaker stand off to the side?  It'll eliminate too much bass sub frequencies from floor coupling (incorrect terminology but you might know what I mean) and get the sound at your ear/head height, you'll not need to turn it up as loud.  

[Greg Edwards69]

21 minutes ago, SumOne said:

Are any of you using a FRFR as your Bass Cab and a mix of the rest of the band's output as a monitor? 

 

I'm in a band that mostly uses in-ears and a mixer to PA, apart from me (and the drummer), I use a Amp/Cab and no IEM or monitor speaker. Often I'm stood behind the PA speakers, next to the drummer and in front of my cab - so I can hear Drums and Bass but not everyone else. I'm looking at getting IEMs, or a monitor wedge, but would changing my Amp/Cab for a FRFR work - can they easily be fed a mix of mostly Bass but also some of the rest of the band for a bit of monitoring? 

 

I guess it's feasible, but if you keep your FRFR speaker in the traditional backline position - at the back of the stage facing forward - I would be concerned that putting a full mix of everything else could cause feedback issues - particularly with vocal mics.

IMHO, you would be better off putting your bass through the PA and using your speaker as a monitor wedge. Or better yet, get those IEMs you've been considering.

[SumOne]

Thanks @warwickhunt and @Greg Edwards69. 

 

One slight issue is that the current PA is a bit weedy/overworked to also have the Bass going through it (it's dealing with 3x horns, guitar, vocals, and doesn't have a great Bass response) so that would need some sort of upgrade if I ran the Bass through it and just used IEMs/monitor wedge. 

 

I hadn't considered the feedback issue, and I think it would be an issue as we have a lot of mics for vocals and horns so already need to be careful where people are in relation to the PA (partly why they all use IEMs instead of monitor wedges).

 

I think perhaps the simplest and cheapest solution for the time being will be to stick with my Amp/Cab and get some IEMs running from the mixer like most of the rest of the band do. ( I have kind of been looking for an excuse to get a FRFR though!). 

Edited January 16 by SumOne

[warwickhunt]

6 minutes ago, SumOne said:

I think perhaps the simplest and cheapest solution for the time being will be to stick with my Amp/Cab and get some IEMs running from the mixer like most of the rest of the band do. ( I have kind of been looking for an excuse to get a FRFR though!). 

 

I'm not up on the ins/outs of the band and PA set up but one immediate thought for me is that if you go using IEM to hear the rest of the band clearer/better, then you will be isolating yourself more from your amp/cab on stage... unless you are taking a DI out to the PA just to feed the aux send / IEM (not FOH)?  How do the rest of the band hear you at present; is it from your backline?  

 

 

[SumOne]

16 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

I'm not up on the ins/outs of the band and PA set up but one immediate thought for me is that if you go using IEM to hear the rest of the band clearer/better, then you will be isolating yourself more from your amp/cab on stage... unless you are taking a DI out to the PA just to feed the aux send / IEM (not FOH)?  How do the rest of the band hear you at present; is it from your backline?  

 

 

 

Yeah, that is potentially a bit of an issue. Hopefully it'd be fine as the rest of the band hear me and the drums okay without us going throught their IEMs, my fairly loud 212 Cab tends to be behind me and I'm lurking behind them with the drummer at the back. If I had IEMs with the same mix as them it would block out some of what I hear from the Cab, but I'm stood right in front of it so I suppose I'd still hear it well enough.  Or I guess like you say -  perhaps I could send a DI from my Amp to the mixer to add some Bass just for the IEMs (I'm not sure about the mixer and IEM system, but I think that's possible without the Bass signal also going out through the PA). 

 

It all gets a bit technical being a 7 piece and getting the sound right for us and the crowd.

 

 

Edited January 16 by SumOne

[warwickhunt]

18 minutes ago, SumOne said:

 

It all gets a bit technical being a 7 piece and getting the sound right for us and the crowd.

 

 

Hmmmm... PA upgrade springs to mind but again I've no idea of the band/PA situation.  We don't use a sub(s) or anything, just decent quality RCF 15" full range cabs (not their top of the range) and I can put my bass through (no backline), along with the kick, snare, 2 guitars (no backline) and 2-3 vocals.  

[JoeEvans]

6 hours ago, SumOne said:

Thanks @warwickhunt and @Greg Edwards69. 

 

One slight issue is that the current PA is a bit weedy/overworked to also have the Bass going through it (it's dealing with 3x horns, guitar, vocals, and doesn't have a great Bass response) so that would need some sort of upgrade if I ran the Bass through it and just used IEMs/monitor wedge. 

 

I hadn't considered the feedback issue, and I think it would be an issue as we have a lot of mics for vocals and horns so already need to be careful where people are in relation to the PA (partly why they all use IEMs instead of monitor wedges).

 

I think perhaps the simplest and cheapest solution for the time being will be to stick with my Amp/Cab and get some IEMs running from the mixer like most of the rest of the band do. ( I have kind of been looking for an excuse to get a FRFR though!). 

I feel.like the ideal solution here long-term is going to be to beef up the PA, get yourself the IEMs and don't use a bass-specific amp or cab on stage at all. Does the PA already have a decent sub?