juice Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 For those who love the green stuff:- I have been emailing TE to try and see if they would be producing a new 12" cab as I am look to replace my trace 15" with one & also asked if they had thought of a new BLX type product. I received the following in an email from them today "There are no plans to do a stand alone 12" cabinet, but we do have plans for some small lightweight but great sounding combos. Keep an eye on the website" Is it just me or does that sound like good news? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 [quote name='juice' post='305782' date='Oct 13 2008, 08:50 PM']For those who love the green stuff:- I have been emailing TE to try and see if they would be producing a new 12" cab as I am look to replace my trace 15" with one & also asked if they had thought of a new BLX type product. I received the following in an email from them today "There are no plans to do a stand alone 12" cabinet, but we do have plans for some small lightweight but great sounding combos. Keep an eye on the website" Is it just me or does that sound like good news? [/quote] At long last! They should've done their relaunch with some groundbreaking lightweight stuff rather than miss the boat by 2 years, but better late than never eh! Keeping my eyes closely on this one, should be good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayfan Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Bring it on! (says my osteopath). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danlea Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Trace Elliot? Light-weight? Are they going to use neon pink colouring for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juice Posted October 13, 2008 Author Share Posted October 13, 2008 Merton - I totally agree better late than never [quote name='danlea' post='305866' date='Oct 13 2008, 11:05 PM']Trace Elliot? Light-weight? Are they going to use neon pink colouring for them?[/quote] yeah and come with a short curly patch cable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderhead Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 'Groundbreaking lightweight' as in "lighter than normal but actually has some (or any) tone"? I wouldn't mind some slightly lighter Trace gear but I really hope they haven't gone down this switch-mode/Class D 'ultra-light' route. Neon pink I could like, though . (Provided the amps sound good!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ped Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Up fer it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 [quote name='Thunderhead' post='307517' date='Oct 16 2008, 01:01 AM']'Groundbreaking lightweight' as in "lighter than normal but actually has some (or any) tone"? I wouldn't mind some slightly lighter Trace gear but I really hope they haven't gone down this switch-mode/Class D 'ultra-light' route. Neon pink I could like, though . (Provided the amps sound good!)[/quote] Do you think that the Class D stuff doesn't sound as good either? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderhead Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 [quote name='EBS_freak' post='307537' date='Oct 16 2008, 02:22 AM']Do you think that the Class D stuff doesn't sound as good either?[/quote]I don't think it sounds good at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Sounds good to me though I challenge anyone to tell the difference between solid state Class A, A/B, D, G or whatever on stage during the middle of a set. Everything else being equal of course. I think Trace should whack together a few wedge cabs with 12 and 15 inch drivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 [quote name='Crazykiwi' post='307634' date='Oct 16 2008, 09:34 AM']I think Trace should whack together a few wedge cabs with 12 and 15 inch drivers.[/quote] I have to say I doubt I'd be able to tell the difference between power amp circuits. As you say, mid-soing mid-set it's just a bass sound, no-one else cares anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderhead Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Crazykiwi' post='307634' date='Oct 16 2008, 09:34 AM']Sounds good to me though I challenge anyone to tell the difference between solid state Class A, A/B, D, G or whatever on stage during the middle of a set. Everything else being equal of course. I think Trace should whack together a few wedge cabs with 12 and 15 inch drivers.[/quote] Between Class AB and Class D? No problem at all. Any situation, any volume, anywhere. Not quite sure in a recording but I would guess so too. If you really don't hear it, I have no idea how! But we all hear things somewhat differently, so I don't doubt there may be those who can't... or who can hear a different thing that I can't. I don't think there is a significant audible difference between Class A and Class AB by the way (despite guitar-amp snobbery on the subject, most of which is based on a misconception of what Class A means, and there are very few Class A guitar amps - and I would guess NO Class A bass amps, in fact), but Class D is a whole different way of producing the output waveform, and it's VERY audible, to me. Class B and C are not suitable for audio because of the large amounts of crossover distortion they generate, if you were wondering where they went! [quote name='Merton' post='307648' date='Oct 16 2008, 09:44 AM']As you say, mid-soing mid-set it's just a bass sound, no-one else cares anyway![/quote] No... it's the difference between something with actual TONE as well as low frequencies, and a sort of artificial approximation of it. Other people may not THINK they care, but you'd be surprised how the quality of the sound is noticeable even to non-musicians - they won't be able to put it into technical terms, but they will still be able to tell the difference between 'great sound' and 'not so great sound'. I feel exactly the same about digital modeling and there are many people who think they can't hear the difference there either. Although Class D does not stand for 'digital', and the output devices are still analog, nevertheless there are similarities in the way the waveform is produced. Edited October 16, 2008 by Thunderhead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I'd love to see a blind ABY test to see if you really can always identify the Class D amps from Class AB ones. Can you hear a difference between mains frequency transformers and SMPS's as well? Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderhead Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 (edited) [quote name='alexclaber' post='308009' date='Oct 16 2008, 04:57 PM']I'd love to see a blind ABY test to see if you really can always identify the Class D amps from Class AB ones. Can you hear a difference between mains frequency transformers and SMPS's as well?[/quote]No, I don't think so - not tonally, anyway. They don't seem to have quite the power delivery though - but maybe this is also to do with smaller filtering values, ie not directly related to how the DC is derived. Either way they don't seem to have the presence and punch that traditional designs do (which is more a function of the power supply than the output stage). I knew this would be controversial, but it really isn't just me - read the thread on the Trace AH250. I'm not the only one that thinks there is an easily audible difference, and that the old-school mains transformer/larger filter/Class AB amps simply sound better, and louder for their rated power. If you really don't hear the difference, and are happy with a Class D amp, that's good for you - they're lighter and cheaper than equivalent quality and power Class AB amps. But don't deride people who can hear the difference - and I would be willing to take part in a blind A/B test too. For what it's worth, I did once take part in a blind test via mp3 files (which is hardly the most revealing format) involving digital modelers vs. analog solid-state and valve guitar amps... and I scored 16 out of 17. I'm certain I would have got the other one if the equipment had been there in front of me too. And yet there are other people who claim that the difference is marginal, or doesn't make enough difference to be audible in a mix, etc etc, just as there are those who can't hear the difference between traditional output stages and Class D. I would just hate to see Trace Elliot go down that path when the whole reason I liked them in the first place was their great tone, and it would be a shame (for me, anyway) to sacrifice that for the sake of light weight or following some new fashionable trend. I'm not just an 'older is always better' snob either - when Trace first came out, THEY were the new breed and a lot of players stuck to their old valve amps and earlier more traditional-sounding solid-state amps. Still, perhaps it doesn't matter... since there is plenty of old Trace gear to go around for a long time, and it's pretty reliable. Edited October 16, 2008 by Thunderhead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I'm unconvinced by digital modelling, particularly when playing and there is that response loop between hands, instrument, amp and ears. I haven't done any ABY testing of Class D vs Class AB amps myself but I did replace a Class AB Mackie power amp with a Class H SMPS QSC and the latter wins on all fronts (bar price). However, if you prefer the sound of a Class AB amp then there's little reason to go Class D etc to save weight - it's not hard to make a conventional bass head weigh under 25lbs which isn't a lot to carry. It's the cabs that make the difference when you're looking at going light. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markytbass Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 [quote]Bring it on! (says my osteopath).[/quote] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderhead Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 (edited) [quote name='alexclaber' post='308145' date='Oct 16 2008, 08:51 PM']However, if you prefer the sound of a Class AB amp then there's little reason to go Class D etc to save weight - it's not hard to make a conventional bass head weigh under 25lbs which isn't a lot to carry. It's the cabs that make the difference when you're looking at going light.[/quote]Indeed - especially Neodymium speakers. (Which I do like, I'm not a total luddite! ) The weight saving on just one speaker is often as much as an entire transformer, especially compared to a modern lightweight toroid. Good cabinet design can reduce the weight too, but I always find that the really heavy ones somehow sound more solid and punchy. It's a difficult compromise, for me... I've yet to hear anything that I really like the sound of that I also don't hate the effort required to move. It would be nice if someone could crack it. Edited October 17, 2008 by Thunderhead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 [quote name='Thunderhead' post='308568' date='Oct 17 2008, 01:17 PM']Good cabinet design can reduce the weight too, but I always find that the really heavy ones somehow sound more solid and punchy. It's a difficult compromise, for me... I've yet to hear anything that I really like the sound of that I also don't hate the effort required to move. It would be nice if someone could crack it.[/quote] From what I can see of most lighter weight cabinets (and many heavy ones too) is that they're insufficiently braced. My old Acme cabs were 3/4" ply with pre-stressed cross-braces - very rigid indeed. To get similar rigidity with my 3/8" ply cabs I'm running ribs along all the panels and then using tensioned cross-braces. The downside is the extra time it takes to build them and they're not quite as light as an unbraced lightweight ply cab but they're a hell of a lot better sounding! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I don't like Neos much either! I'm all up for class D amps... just not found one that sounds as good yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='308579' date='Oct 17 2008, 01:28 PM']From what I can see of most lighter weight cabinets (and many heavy ones too) is that they're insufficiently braced. My old Acme cabs were 3/4" ply with pre-stressed cross-braces - very rigid indeed. To get similar rigidity with my 3/8" ply cabs I'm running ribs along all the panels and then using tensioned cross-braces. The downside is the extra time it takes to build them and they're not quite as light as an unbraced lightweight ply cab but they're a hell of a lot better sounding! Alex[/quote] I have f**k all experience with light cabs but I do know htat the sound of your Compact cab was astonishing. I can't wait to be able to afford a couple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldo Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I have one of the new Trace combos and it's superb, It'll be interesting to see how these lighweight ones turn out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquipment Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Light trace gear? 2x10 cab would be lovely or maybe 2x15... With these neodymium magnets things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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