How Do You Value Yourself As A Musician, What Are You Worth?

[blue]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1477677818' post='3163860']


Working musicians run them and get paid here .... which is why they are on mondays or tues, and nowhere near the weekend

The house-band gets paid.
[/quote]

They might be working musicians,but none that has anymore work than I have presently.

None of the local heavy hitters that I would want to network with participate in open mic nights.

Blue

[JTUK]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1477924735' post='3165283']
They might be working musicians,but none that has anymore work than I have presently.

None of the local heavy hitters that I would want to network with participate in open mic nights.

Blue
[/quote]

The way it works is that a full time guy will want to fill his dates and monday and tues are slow dates, typically.
So, he may well run a jam night. He will also share this amongst his mates so they get paid as the house band as well.

Sunday evening might a choice althu a round here sunday is a good day to gig as you could have 3 dates that day, 2 paid gigs and a Jam session so racking up £200 in total isn't out of the question on a sunday. This is good money and probably the only time they will beat that in terms of money earned is a sat night function gig or a session.

Cover all your bases and earn money on a typical 'bad' earning day means you are under less pressure elsewhere during the week.

There aren't many full time guys that can afford to miss this sort of trick, IMO.

[JTUK]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1477870794' post='3165011']
Enjoy themselves? perish the thought. They spend half the set looking at each other and wondering if they were first, second or third choice on JT's roster to get in his all star band...
[/quote]

I'd say these are network/show your face type things...or a catch up/remember me visit.

Even the very best run sessions, IME, are not sessions you'd go to religiously as tbh, the standard is varible. This may be because the band leader is limited in the song choice or the guess players are limited in what they can handle, which is why 12 bar is the place to start until you know what they can do. But those very 12 bars are what make people think, not another 12 bar.

To have any sort of run at this... the band needs to be interesting to bring people back in week in, week out..and this means typically they have to be 'good'..
The Band leader also needs quite a repetoire himself to stop the same songs being played every week.

The very best ones tend to evolve into Jam/jazz nights but the success of them over a period of time is how good the music is. This is a very narrow tightrope as this is the very opposite of the remit they started up with.

Once you have progressed to Jazz/jam nights and good players turn up, you also take round the pot.. to pay for the guest musicians that you want to keep coming.

It is work first and foremost. If it is also fun, then it stands a reasonable chance it will last.

Best bandleaders tend to be horn guys with a pad...or Keys.
Worst tend to be 12 bar gtr guys in A as this may shut down so many other musical avenues.

[blue]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1477926058' post='3165299']


The way it works is that a full time guy will want to fill his dates and monday and tues are slow dates, typically.
So, he may well run a jam night. He will also share this amongst his mates so they get paid as the house band as well.

Sunday evening might a choice althu a round here sunday is a good day to gig as you could have 3 dates that day, 2 paid gigs and a Jam session so racking up £200 in total isn't out of the question on a sunday. This is good money and probably the only time they will beat that in terms of money earned is a sat night function gig or a session.

Cover all your bases and earn money on a typical 'bad' earning day means you are under less pressure elsewhere during the week.

There aren't many full time guys that can afford to miss this sort of trick, IMO.
[/quote]

I think what I'm saying is, there's a big difference between "full time guys" and who I would consider "heavy hitters".

Bluw

[JTUK]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1477943606' post='3165449']
I think what I'm saying is, there's a big difference between "full time guys" and who I would consider "heavy hitters".

Bluw
[/quote]

Subject for another thread and one I'd be interested in.
Some full time guys, I don't give too much credence to, tbh. It is just what they do and the path they want to follow. Apart from that, it doesn't amount too much.
For example, a more than decent earning function band will support quite a few of these guys full time with a bit of work elsewhere to cover earnings.

Heavy hitters to me would be guys out on very creditable tours with big names.
But even then... some of them may not be amongst the best of the local guys.
And by best of the local guys, I mean guys who are well known through out the county and possibly beyond.

So, yes,..it could get quite grey ;lol:

[blue]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1477996221' post='3165768']


Subject for another thread and one I'd be interested in.
Some full time guys, I don't give too much credence to, tbh. It is just what they do and the path they want to follow. Apart from that, it doesn't amount too much.
For example, a more than decent earning function band will support quite a few of these guys full time with a bit of work elsewhere to cover earnings.

Heavy hitters to me would be guys out on very creditable tours with big names.
But even then... some of them may not be amongst the best of the local guys.
And by best of the local guys, I mean guys who are well known through out the county and possibly beyond.

So, yes,..it could get quite grey ;lol:
[/quote]

Agreed, I'm already a full time guy, but no way anywhere near a heavy hitter. I'm not even a hitter.

IMO, we only have 2 guys here in Milwaukee that are heavy hitters, Daryl Strummer (Genesis) and Greg Koch.

And both of these guys have large stables of bass players they work with exclusively.

Blue

[JTUK]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1478029362' post='3166212']
Agreed, I'm already a full time guy, but no way anywhere near a heavy hitter. I'm not even a hitter.

IMO, we only have 2 guys here in Milwaukee that are heavy hitters, Daryl Strummer (Genesis) and Greg Koch.

And both of these guys have large stables of bass players they work with exclusively.

Blue
[/quote]

I guess the other thing is what makes you a 'hitter'.... having the gig or having the talent. I agree that one should lead to the other but music is also nothing if not cliquey.
For example, who gives out deps..?? and do they give it to a guy that could possibly take the gig?

Yes, we can be an insecure lot... and sometimes, with good reason.

The very best player around here has done it all... and even though he is out of the game, it is obvious he is on another level... Everyone knows that..except the guys who play the same instrument. and guys who just don't know, full stop.

[blue]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1478030082' post='3166225']


I guess the other thing is what makes you a 'hitter'.... having the gig or having the talent. I agree that one should lead to the other but music is also nothing if not cliquey.
For example, who gives out deps..?? and do they give it to a guy that could possibly take the gig?

Yes, we can be an insecure lot... and sometimes, with good reason.

The very best player around here has done it all... and even though he is out of the game, it is obvious he is on another level... Everyone knows that..except the guys who play the same instrument. and guys who just don't know, full stop.
[/quote]

I don't know much about the depping world. However what seems to be the case in my part of the world,its another closed clicky scene.

Blue

[Damonjames]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1478029362' post='3166212']


Agreed, I'm already a full time guy, but no way anywhere near a heavy hitter. I'm not even a hitter.

IMO, we only have 2 guys here in Milwaukee that are heavy hitters, Daryl Strummer (Genesis) and Greg Koch.

And both of these guys have large stables of bass players they work with exclusively.

Blue
[/quote]

Blue, from this thread, it would appear to me (and correct me if I'm wrong), it's not about "worth" as it is about kudos.

You are trying to make the jump from "full time guy" to "heavy hitter", that fact that said heavy hitter earns more cash is coincident.

If you say there are only 2 heavy hitters in Milwaukee, if making the jump is your primary goal, perhaps you should consider moving somewhere you can increase you chances??

Move somewhere, do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING, there is available, and see where that gets you. Life is a numbers game mate, you need to find a way to get the odds leaning in your favour.

Do you think Keith Urban would be the huge country artist if he had stayed in Australia?? He would be just another Lee Kernagan or Casey Chambers (no disrespect to either of these artists by the way).

Go for it Blue, I'm by no means knocking you, but you seem to be making a lot of excuses for why your aren't where you want to be. Go MAKE it happen, no one else
Is going to gift this to you!

Edited November 6, 2016 by Damonjames

[blue]

[quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1478472333' post='3169331']

Go for it Blue, I'm by no means knocking you, but you seem to be making a lot of excuses for why your aren't where you want to be. Go MAKE it happen, no one else
Is going to gift this to you!
[/quote]

No correction needed, I think you understand exactly where I'm coming from.

I've had a tiny taste of walking away from a few 1.5 hour gigs with $600.00 bucks in my wallet. And a big long taste of struggling with 4 hour US bar gigs walking away with $125.00.

I want more money and a higher caliber of shows.

Yes. I know it will have to involve moving.

Blue

[TimR]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1478052563' post='3166425']


I don't know much about the depping world. However what seems to be the case in my part of the world,its another closed clicky scene.

Blue
[/quote]

Unfortunately. This means getting out socially to the places where these people are and being nice to them. Invite them to your gigs so they see and hear how good you are. When they come, make sure you buy them drinks and keep them entertained, not just with the music.

Go to their gigs and complement them on what they're doing.

Clicky scenes are not that hard to get into if you know how to socialise and make it work.

Even BassChat is fairly clicky at a certain level. You have to give and take a bit and get a few decent posts in before people start listening and respecting your comments.

.

[jonnythenotes]

Most people who book a band for a wedding want to pay them less than they did for their wedding cake,( which nearly always gets left, ) and the Iceland 'whale on a stick' and recently thawed 'sausage delights'.

[blue]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1478513229' post='3169472']


Unfortunately. This means getting out socially to the places where these people are and being nice to them. Invite them to your gigs so they see and hear how good you are. When they come, make sure you buy them drinks and keep them entertained, not just with the music.

Go to their gigs and complement them on what they're doing.

Clicky scenes are not that hard to get into if you know how to socialise and make it work.

Even BassChat is fairly clicky at a certain level. You have to give and take a bit and get a few decent posts in before people start listening and respecting your comments.

.
[/quote]

It doesn't work that way over here, your nor going to get a local heavy hitter to attend your gig if your not in their click.

Blue

[stingrayPete1977]

You'll have to get into their click then, it's the only way.

[JTUK]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1478524012' post='3169587']
It doesn't work that way over here, your nor going to get a local heavy hitter to attend your gig if your not in their click.

Blue
[/quote]

Yep... but you need to be on the same gigs as them..and then they know you can work at a certain level, how you go about the business and how you work.
Sometimes, the playing part is down the list but a certain standard at a certain standard is a given.

[TimR]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1478524012' post='3169587']


It doesn't work that way over here, your nor going to get a local heavy hitter to attend your gig if your not in their click.

Blue
[/quote]

Hmmm.

The way it works here is you pay a dep to play in your band. Once you've had a few different pros play with you they start asking you to cover when they need someone.

Are you saying that 'heavy hitters' only play for big names?

There must be a middle step between what you're doing now and backing Phil Collins on tour?

[blue]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1478540930' post='3169748']


Hmmm.

The way it works here is you pay a dep to play in your band. Once you've had a few different pros play with you they start asking you to cover when they need someone.

Are you saying that 'heavy hitters' only play for big names?

There must be a middle step between what you're doing now and backing Phil Collins on tour?
[/quote]

If there is I'm not aware of it or that actually where I am now. A lifetime (50 years) of good band and bass playing experience and I'm out there in the trenches performing every weekend.Still learning new things honing and updating my skill set.

I have seen some of the few heavy hitters we have here at attending big shows that come through town and have diplomatically approached them.

Basically asking them how, where and how they recruit new bass players. Leaving them with my business card and and an appropriate genre demo on a flash drive.

Never received a response, but will continue to try and network with the heavy hitters.

Could be I'm not what they're looking for, and I'm fine with that.


By the way, I am not approaching or networking with those that are half my age. Not going to do it.

Blue

Edited November 7, 2016 by blue

[RhysP]

It's "cliquey" for f***s sake, not clicky.

Right, carry on...

[blue]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1478526489' post='3169605']


Yep... but you need to be on the same gigs as them..and then they know you can work at a certain level, how you go about the business and how you work.
Sometimes, the playing part is down the list but a certain standard at a certain standard is a given.
[/quote]

I've played shows with one of our heavy hitters, it hasn't been of much benefit yet. I wasn't really comfortable asking him to stick around to hear me perform.

I know where your coming from because that's the way things happened for guys in the old days. Not sure that's the way it works anymore.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1478543063' post='3169775']
It's "cliquey" for f***s sake, not clicky.

Right, carry on...
[/quote]

Understood

Blue

[TimR]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1478543220' post='3169777']


I've played shows with one of our heavy hitters, it hasn't been of much benefit yet. I wasn't really comfortable asking him to stick around to hear me perform.

I know where your coming from because that's the way things happened for guys in the old days. Not sure that's the way it works anymore.

Blue
[/quote]

But have you spoken to the other heavy hitter band members and got their details and asked them to cover players from your band when they can't do gigs?

[peteb]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1478543220' post='3169777']
I've played shows with one of our heavy hitters, it hasn't been of much benefit yet. I wasn't really comfortable asking him to stick around to hear me perform.

I know where your coming from because that's the way things happened for guys in the old days. Not sure that's the way it works anymore.

Blue
[/quote]
I think that you have to be realistic. Even if Greg Koch does happen to be on the same bill as you, I doubt that he is going to think of you when he needs a bass player (or me, or virtually anyone on here with maybe a couple of exceptions) when he has Roscoe Beck’s number in his phone…!

You need to be visible to the guys you want to play with, so that they think of you when they need a bass player. Go to their shows and say hi, without necessarily pushing a business card on them. Above all play with as many different musicians as possible, so that you have more people to recommend you if the right gig does come up…

[Dad3353]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1478543220' post='3169777']...Not sure that's the way it works any more.
[/quote]

It is for the young'uns.

[blue]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1478544749' post='3169792']


But have you spoken to the other heavy hitter band members and got their details and asked them to cover players from your band when they can't do gigs?
[/quote]

The local heavy hitters have an established stable of bass players they use.

I guess the question is how you get in the stable. Keep in mind this is a clique of musicians that are native Milwaukeans that have worked together for years.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1478545831' post='3169805']

I think that you have to be realistic. Even if Greg Koch does happen to be on the same bill as you, I doubt that he is going to think of you when he needs a bass player (or me, or virtually anyone on here with maybe a couple of exceptions) when he has Roscoe Beck’s number in his phone…!

You need to be visible to the guys you want to play with, so that they think of you when they need a bass player. Go to their shows and say hi, without necessarily pushing a business card on them. Above all play with as many different musicians as possible, so that you have more people to recommend you if the right gig does come up…
[/quote]

All so true Pete, and to be honest I don't know if I have what it takes to play with Greg.

Greg still plays some of the same bars we play. He's approachable, he doesn't seem to be a jerk. I'll run into him sooner or later again.

Blue