JTUK Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1478547624' post='3169828'] The local heavy hitters have an established stable of bass players they use. I guess the question is how you get in the stable. Keep in mind this is a clique of musicians that are native Milwaukeans that have worked together for years. Blue [/quote] Sometimes you can't do anything about that... cliques can be self serving and very closed off. By the same token, they are a known entity or better the devil you know. The first thing is you should know them and they should know you. No one is calling randoms but if everyone is busy them someone knows someone and you get a nod from someone who puts your name up. This is why you don't want to be nailed in by just one band. I think a good move would be to be a booker and if you are offering work, you get everyones number and they all have a reason to talk to you, firstly...then you are an ok guy, then you are friends etc etc... But, you have to be reasonable about the level you can operate in. Getting stepped into $600 gigs is one thing, going for national tours is another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1478548023' post='3169832'] All so true Pete, and to be honest I don't know if I have what it takes to play with Greg. [b]Greg still plays some of the same bars we play. He's approachable[/b], he doesn't seem to be a jerk. I'll run into him sooner or later again. Blue [/quote] Start right there...ask him if he knows of a gig... he might be wary, but he cant and wont promise anything, so you'll still have work to do.... but he might know who is looking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1478548723' post='3169837'] Sometimes you can't do anything about that... cliques can be self serving and very closed off. By the same token, they are a known entity or better the devil you know. The first thing is you should know them and they should know you. No one is calling randoms but if everyone is busy them someone knows someone and you get a nod from someone who puts your name up. This is why you don't want to be nailed in by just one band. I think a good move would be to be a booker and if you are offering work, you get everyones number and they all have a reason to talk to you, firstly...then you are an ok guy, then you are friends etc etc... But, you have to be reasonable about the level you can operate in. Getting stepped into $600 gigs is one thing, going for national tours is another. [/quote] Good advice and commentary. I hope I'm not the only one on Bass Chat that is always looking for upgrade opportunities. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnDave Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1478549313' post='3169849'] Good advice and commentary. I hope I'm not the only one on Bass Chat that is always looking for upgrade opportunities. Blue [/quote] Definitely not, but perhaps many aren't setting their sights as high as you are. I just spent a few weeks rehearsing with a pub cover band (filling in gaps from the Wirebirds) but left a few days ago when I was asked to join a band with a much better reputation. Still kicking myself over the pro offers I walked away from 40 years ago, but I did the same as you, went to uni to satisfy my family. Total waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1478549313' post='3169849'] Good advice and commentary. I hope I'm not the only one on Bass Chat that is always looking for upgrade opportunities. Blue [/quote] Surely you aren't....? but also, you can't be playing with bands that aren't good..?? as this is a trial by association. You get to play in a pool of known people, the bands and players are regarded and that becomes your level. You are expected to add to the bands you play with...you have something to bring to that party. If the band isn't rated, neither will you be. The only way to get out of that situation is to be a big stand-out...but the question will still be, why are you playing with these guys..?? At a certain point in the gig... everyone will be interchangeable, as in different versions of good, and then it becomes down to how well they get on with you, etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 (edited) [quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1478549927' post='3169858'] Definitely not, but perhaps many aren't setting their sights as high as you are. I just spent a few weeks rehearsing with a pub cover band (filling in gaps from the Wirebirds) but left a few days ago when I was asked to join a band with a much better reputation. Still kicking myself over the pro offers I walked away from 40 years ago, but I did the same as you, went to uni to satisfy my family. Total waste of time. [/quote] I hear you Dave. I still have the bug and the spirit of an 18 year old for rock & roll. But at 63 years old, I got home from gigs this past Friday and Saturday night at 2:30am hardly able to stand and colasped on my bed thinking, "why am I doing this to myself?" My old mates from Jersey ask me the same question. I don't know why Blue Edited November 7, 2016 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnDave Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Thanks, Blue, but I am 59 next month, spent most of this year recovering from a motorcycle accident and part of last year from a fairly serious illness. I was still gigging as much as I could, but I know all about collapsing at the end of the gig, believe me! I am looking forward to my first gig with the new band (next Saturday) as much as I was to my first ever gig. Maybe there's something wrong with me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1478550037' post='3169859'] Surely you aren't....? but also, you can't be playing with bands that aren't good..?? as this is a trial by association. You get to play in a pool of known people, the bands and players are regarded and that becomes your level. You are expected to add to the bands you play with...you have something to bring to that party. If the band isn't rated, neither will you be. The only way to get out of that situation is to be a big stand-out...but the question will still be, why are you playing with these guys..?? At a certain point in the gig... everyone will be interchangeable, as in different versions of good, and then it becomes down to how well they get on with you, etc etc [/quote] I am the bass player for one of if not the best and busiest progressive rock and blues bands in Milwaukee. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 My mate in Florida is exactly the same.... can't do 4 hr gigs anymore every though they earn quite well and they aren't a bar band. I think a few gigs will pay around $3k, iirc, but they have to have a 5 piece with 5 lead vox as they really struggle. so, even if the money is ok, the hours are killer... Not sure how that works, will have to ask why they don't or can't cut the hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1478551006' post='3169874'] I am the bass player for one of if not the best and busiest progressive rock and blues bands in Milwaukee. Blue [/quote] That is good.... do people in the town accept and agree on that. Is that accepted by other musos and bands? Do they come and check you out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 [quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1478550955' post='3169872'] Thanks, Blue, but I am 59 next month, spent most of this year recovering from a motorcycle accident and part of last year from a fairly serious illness. I was still gigging as much as I could, but I know all about collapsing at the end of the gig, believe me! I am looking forward to my first gig with the new band (next Saturday) as much as I was to my first ever gig. Maybe there's something wrong with me! [/quote] It use to be a joke but now it seems it might be true. I never grew up. Please let us know how things go on Saturday. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnDave Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1478551222' post='3169881'] It use to be a joke but now it seems it might be true. I never grew up. Please let us know how things go on Saturday. Blue [/quote] I'll do that. To be honest, I wasn't particularly looking forward to what would have been the first gig with the pub covers band that same night, so a good move on all fronts for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 (edited) [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1478551207' post='3169879'] That is good.... do people in the town accept and agree on that. Is that accepted by other musos and bands? Do they come and check you out? [/quote] Occasionally we see some of the Milwaukee blues and rock veterans at our shows. Most are gigging when were gigging. Keep in mind were only 11 years on the scene many of the heavy hitters have been around since the 70s. So we will never fit in with them and some are blues purist. We're not. Blue Edited November 7, 2016 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 (edited) [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1478551046' post='3169876'] My mate in Florida is exactly the same.... can't do 4 hr gigs anymore every though they earn quite well and they aren't a bar band. I think a few gigs will pay around $3k, iirc, but they have to have a 5 piece with 5 lead vox as they really struggle. so, even if the money is ok, the hours are killer... Not sure how that works, will have to ask why they don't or can't cut the hours. [/quote] The hours are a challenge. Managing 4 hours of material is not easy. Last Friday we did a typical 8-12 and still had a respectable crowd at 11:30. That's not always the case.In this case the bar/restaurant has a good reputation for live music. People cone there specifically to see bands. 4 hours will never change for Midwest bar bands.You will play 4 hours until you are willing to tour and can fill at least 200 seaters as a headliner playing 1.5 hour shows. Blue Edited November 7, 2016 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1478547624' post='3169828'] The local heavy hitters have an established stable of bass players they use. I guess the question is how you get in the stable. Keep in mind this is a clique of musicians that are native Milwaukeans that have worked together for years. Blue [/quote] You're completely missing what I wrote. Where do you get your drummer/guitarist/singer deps from. Get the details of the guys you want to play with and get them to fill in your band when someone can't make a gig. Although, from previous posts about the way you treat your band, you probably have no say whatsoever about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1478552396' post='3169898'] The hours are a challenge. Managing 4 hours of material is not easy. Last Friday we did a typical 8-12 and still had a respectable crowd at 11:30. That's not always the case.In this case the bar/restaurant has a good reputation for live music. People cone there specifically to see bands. 4 hours will never change for Midwest bar bands.You will play 4 hours until you are willing to tour and can fill at least 200 seaters as a headliner playing 1.5 hour shows. Blue [/quote] 200 seats is not that big a jump. It should be achievable....BUT... not if you play the same area for free. And you can't cut the gigs down as you all want/need to earn. Getting enough of those gigs is tough tho... Needs a strategy. And that is why I always say there is too much cheap music available and punters are too used to not paying for it etc etc but we've trod that path in threads often enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackerJackLee Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 (edited) I look at a bar gig only as a practice session. a glorified practice... It saves you renting a practice room. It takes your regular rehearsal to a more intense level. But bar/pub owners get no respect or consideration from me. They pay the bartenders, servers, the people who make the beer and liquor, the guy who sweeps the floor, repairs their roof, their cooks, their accountants... they pay everyone and take a profit... BUT they don't pay the musicians... and if they do, it barely pays for gas... you carry your gear to the car, load the car, get gas, drive, park, unload, carry, set-up... then you play four hours... buy a beer and a sandwich... then break down the gear, carry, load the car, read the parking ticket, stare at the new dent in the fender, drive home at 1:30 in the morning, unload, place your gear in the house, and collapse on the couch... all for $37.55...you actually lose money to play in a bar... and you ain't gonna make it anyhow... my band is now only interested in outdoor events... more exposure - no drunks - no owners... like a day trip... family is free to hang out or shop... enjoy the day... get home at a decent hour... to hell with bars... working for free is slavery. Enjoy...! Edited November 7, 2016 by CrackerJackLee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackerJackLee Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1476961478' post='3158804'] My worth as a musician is the same as it is in every other aspect of my life - f*** all. [/quote] I have reported you for self-debasement... but as I slip into my golden years, I fear that you have a point. Until I hit 46, I didn't have a clue. Not that I'm smarter, too late, I'm 62. They say that the bone floor under your brain drops with age. The angle changes. And you start getting more wisdom than you can bear as that part of the brain then starts to develop. They are now looking at people's skulls to gauge their wisdom... And as we get wiser, we must learn to live with regret... or just get a cat. Some people don't experience this as their skull won't allow the floor to drop... it gets stuck, or something... Young people, as I once was, can never understand the results of their actions until they reach 50 or so... then your mind generates all those memories that you never had the time to think through... and you must learn to live with regret... you don't get a minute's peace... but don't be hard on yourself... we all waste life constantly... my only hope is that some young feller reads this... and straightens out his life, like some old, crooked rusty nail... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1478554004' post='3169912'] You're completely missing what I wrote. Where do you get your drummer/guitarist/singer deps from. Get the details of the guys you want to play with and get them to fill in your band when someone can't make a gig. Although, from previous posts about the way you treat your band, you probably have no say whatsoever about this. [/quote] Not so much that, in the 5 years I've been in the band we have never used a dep. We had to replace a drummer, but the guy we replaced stayed with us until the new drummer was up and running. When someone blocks a date we don't book it. Seems like depping is used more in the UK. No, I stay out of band management stuff. I'm not good at it. We recently added Jefferson Airplane's "White Rabbit". I was against it, I thought it was dated and a bad idea. Turned out to be our big crowd pleaser. Saturday night the whole club sang along with us. That tells you what I know. Blue Edited November 8, 2016 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) [quote name='CrackerJackLee' timestamp='1478557258' post='3169950'] I have reported you for self-debasement... but as I slip into my golden years, I fear that you have a point. Until I hit 46, I didn't have a clue. Not that I'm smarter, too late, I'm 62. They say that the bone floor under your brain drops with age. The angle changes. And you start getting more wisdom than you can bear as that part of the brain then starts to develop. They are now looking at people's skulls to gauge their wisdom... And as we get wiser, we must learn to live with regret... or just get a cat. Some people don't experience this as their skull won't allow the floor to drop... it gets stuck, or something... Young people, as I once was, can never understand the results of their actions until they reach 50 or so... then your mind generates all those memories that you never had the time to think through... and you must learn to live with regret... you don't get a minute's peace... but don't be hard on yourself... we all waste life constantly... my only hope is that some young feller reads this... and straightens out his life, like some old, crooked rusty nail... [/quote] Great comment. If I knew what I know now at 63 when I was 18 I would have taken the risk and perused music full time with the aspiration to make it big. Now, it's really too late. Blue Edited November 8, 2016 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) [quote name='CrackerJackLee' timestamp='1478555395' post='3169922'] you carry your gear to the car, load the car, get gas, drive, park, unload, carry, set-up... then you play four hours... buy a beer and a sandwich... then break down the gear, carry, load the car, read the parking ticket, stare at the new dent in the fender, drive home at 1:30 in the morning, unload, place your gear in the house, and collapse on the couch... all for $37.55...you actually lose money. my band is now only interested in outdoor events... more exposure - no drunks - no owners... like a day trip... family is free to hang out or shop... enjoy the day... get home at a decent hour... to hell with bars... working for free is slavery. Enjoy...! [/quote] Sounds like the "originals" band scene in Milwaukee minus the $37.55. However, it's usually a 4 band bill and you only play for an hour. Blue Edited November 8, 2016 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1478554453' post='3169914'] 200 seats is not that big a jump. It should be achievable....BUT... not if you play the same area for free. And you can't cut the gigs down as you all want/need to earn. Getting enough of those gigs is tough tho... Needs a strategy. And that is why I always say there is too much cheap music available and punters are too used to not paying for it etc etc but we've trod that path in threads often enough [/quote] Most bands over here doing it have a relationship with an independent label. YouTube or Google 25 year old Samantha Fish. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnDave Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Blue, we used to play White Rabbit when Jenny Haan was in the band, it always went down well. One gig we had to play it 4 times before the audience would stop calling for more and let us go home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) In the UK we have a different attitude to sickness. If we are ill we go to the doctor (paid for by the state) and have a day off (paid by the company/state). Edited November 8, 2016 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1478578015' post='3170017'] Not so much that, in the 5 years I've been in the band we have never used a dep. We had to replace a drummer, but the guy we replaced stayed with us until the new drummer was up and running. When someone blocks a date we don't book it. Seems like depping is used more in the UK. No, I stay out of band management stuff. I'm not good at it. We recently added Jefferson Airplane's "White Rabbit". I was against it, I thought it was dated and a bad idea. Turned out to be our big crowd pleaser. Saturday night the whole club sang along with us. That tells you what I know. Blue [/quote] This is catch 22. The band and/or yourself do not subscribe to using deps..but the territory you want to get into, means depping is the way it works. You get a call for a Tuesday night. They are trying you out on a non critical gig. The problem here is loads of his 1[sup]st[/sup] call guys are free that day..? You might not get offered that date, so they have a Friday. This is a more critical day as there are more gigs on Friday so busy people can be busy. They go through 5-6 names and no one is free. They call you. You aren’t free either, but for this ‘opportunity’ you have to make that gig..as you don’t know when you might get offered it again as a newbie in the new pool of players…which is what you want to pursue. You ask your band to release you..and they aren’t happy. They want dedicated guys who only play in one band. This is not a reasonable stance IMO, as you can’t hold back people from better gigs…and neither should you. But bands can be selfish, this may be an issue they want to make a stand on. Your choice, for a stand-in gig, that pays you no more than you are getting with your regular band, but in a ‘potentially’ better pool or players with potentially better gigs..?? and you may lose the gig that actually makes you a living at the moment..? What do you do…?? The first thing is to get into the land of deps. This makes you known to more people and more gigs. What you have to learn to do if manage your diary. It may sometimes be seat of the pants stuff, but there is no way round it. The good bands round here have good players 2 or 3 deep…and use deps, as the better players in the pool are after small tours and so those gigs become all important. What you have to get away from it the idea that taking a gig means you HAVE to do it. You have to sort out the band with a dep…but you don’t or wont commit to a Saturday 3-6 months away and be held to it. You can’t do that and good bandleaders know and accept this. The benefit to the BL is that they get a good supply of good players to call on… and they may get kudos from having a known player on their gig… The benefit to the player is that he can make up his diary and swap things around. He has gigs that will give him his weekly money, and he is free to take the gig that looks better on his C.V as and when. And the end of the day, the full timer, needs to make £x salary. The question is, is he happy to do that with one band and play safe… or if he keen enough to shoot a little higher knowing it may bring a better payback… Most of these guys I know doing this, have very small overheads and can and will drop everything for that special gig. Fortunately, all the bands he works for, know and accept this and are pretty grown up about it. What you DON’T do is leave someone in the lurch..so you can spend as much time, or more, on the phone covering a gig you can’t do, as one you can..? This is the way it works. IME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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