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ARGH

Jim Fleeting's New 6 string

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Because I have low self esteem and I have no life, obviously! GOD!

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[quote name='ped' post='306529' date='Oct 14 2008, 07:07 PM']With Sibob again. I don't think my post could have been less confrontational if I tried, so I don't know why you are getting so pent up! With regards to the intonation on my fretless if I capo the 12th fret the strings are all intonated properly, and I suspect with a wooden bridge this would be more difficult. Weather this is noticeable to a player/listener was not my argument.



ped[/quote]
No Ped it just means its intonated at one single point,the 12th fret,not the entire fingerboard,its one of those fables that really gets my goat...along with 'X' type of wood on a fingerboard or body makes [i]this[/i] tone ....its bullshit,there is no such thing as total true intonation,because if you had a complete and perfect in tune instrument,you wouldnt be able to play with anyone,because they would always never be able to be tune with you.

Edited by ARGH

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People intonate for a reason, don't they?

like I said, weather it makes an audible difference is not my argument - but you might as well get off to a good start, eh?

Oh and whilst we are in disagreement I DO hold SOME stock in the 'x wood sounds like this' argument, though it is just a part of a larger picture which depends on the sum of the parts.

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[quote name='ped' post='306598' date='Oct 14 2008, 08:14 PM']People intonate for a reason, don't they?

like I said, weather it makes an audible difference is not my argument - but you might as well get off to a good start, eh?

Oh and whilst we are in disagreement I DO hold SOME stock in the 'x wood sounds like this' argument, though it is just a part of a larger picture which depends on the sum of the parts.[/quote]
But its crap Ped,scale affects tone more than anything......ok yeah.. change the material radically from wood to say..metal or a carbon composite or concrete the instrument will resonate in a completely different fashion..but regardless of the material factor..be it Maple,Plastic,pigiron,whatever,stick 2" on the scale from bridge to nut and it WILL sound different to a far far greater extent acoustically than whatever else you do regardless...its maths,pure maths..Physics

The only other factors in sound from the instruments POV is/are P/U's (Physics)..and strings (more Physics).....after that its the individual plucking the instrument,his choice of cable amp head etc.

Edited by ARGH

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I have had two identical basses, one alder and one ash, and there was a marked difference. You are correct though, it is a small factor with all things considered but I think people who say it makes NO difference are as incorrect as those who think it makes ALL the difference.

Nuts? pah... Gimme a zero fret any day ;0)

Cheers
ped

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I've had a 35" scale graphite necked instrument and the scale made a slight difference, but not a lot compared to my 34" scale instruments. In fact probably less than the difference between a maple and a wenge neck. Oh and don't get me started on the differences in sound between graphite necks.

I think noone's in a position to argue a strong case for any one particular element being dominant in an instrument, anymore than anyone could argue the case for pizza dough being the dominant flavouring in a 12" family sized advocado and feta. At the end of the day we could all argue for one element being important than the others until the cows come home.

If any one individual argues for an element at the exclusion of all others, then they're going to end up out on a limb at the end of the day. Even if it is in their experience then lets compare experience.

FWIW In my experience, a bass guitar is the sum of all its elements be it scale length, neck material, pickups, preamp, neck joint, wood density, fingerboard stiffness, blah blah. Any polarised argument in favour of one element would deny the manner in which all the other elements interact with one another.

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[quote name='ped' post='306664' date='Oct 14 2008, 09:23 PM']I have had two identical basses, one alder and one ash, and there was a marked difference. You are correct though, it is a small factor with all things considered but I think people who say it makes NO difference are as incorrect as those who think it makes ALL the difference.

Nuts? pah... Gimme a zero fret any day ;0)

Cheers
ped[/quote]
Its visual perception......like Maple/Rosewood fingerboards..People cant hear the difference.
If I played you a Maple P-Bass and an Alder equivilent..both painted black.....blindfolded you,you wouldnt be able to tell the difference,but If I played one (either) and it was a 36" scale you would tell the difference straight off.

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[quote name='ARGH' post='306457' date='Oct 14 2008, 05:58 PM']The answer is tone,regarding bridge choice.....I asked Jim and his reply was "Its what he (The Customer) wanted"

Lets not get into the idiotic discussion of the level I had on sevenstring.org a year ago...re: wooden bridges,they play in tune are easy to live with and work perfectly well.

So you have a perfectly intonated fretless Ped?? Is that possible? Seeing as the fretting hand IS the intonation...thus bringing into question a players technique..I highly doubt your claim to be true,which then brings the question of what is perfect intonation,the answer being practically an impossibility in the western scale of a fretted neck and in the fretless players case the ears and hands.

The 'lines' are guides..but as you know one little movement..the rolling of the fingertip and all the setting up and intonating in the world aint gonna help you out there..if we were really hardcore we wouldnt have dots on the side either (ala Jeff Ament) would we?

On the question on adjusting the action upon the instrument?

WHY?? WTF would you want to adjust the action after purchase?..you try it out when Jim finishes it,and if you dont like it its changed in the shop there and then,if you get a shift a week or two later,or its not to your taste then its easy enough to do,via a qualified Luthier...I dont know anyone on here that radically changes string guages week in week out,nor travels vast distances between timezones and climates,and if you were to get a big neck shift its why Trussrods are in existance...Of course any changes upon a Jim Fleeting are subject to a free setup at a 6 month interval (might be 12 months as well email Jim for information). If you can afford to change strings every week,and need diffent guages upon one instrument,I have the feeling you might be in enough money to own more than one instrument.[/quote]So, what you are saying is that you have never altered the action on any of the basses you have owned?
As for different types of wood making no difference in the tone of basses, and if that is the case, any instrument made of wood, I have never heard anything so ostrich-like in my life!
So, I don't like the action after a few days, I then have to take the time to go to Jims to have it tweeked, say if I live 200 miles away?

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[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='306683' date='Oct 14 2008, 09:35 PM']I've had a 35" scale graphite necked instrument and the scale made a slight difference, but not a lot compared to my 34" scale instruments. In fact probably less than the difference between a maple and a wenge neck. Oh and don't get me started on the differences in sound between graphite necks.

I think noone's in a position to argue a strong case for any one particular element being dominant in an instrument, anymore than anyone could argue the case for pizza dough being the dominant flavouring in a 12" family sized advocado and feta. At the end of the day we could all argue for one element being important than the others until the cows come home.

If any one individual argues for an element at the exclusion of all others, then they're going to end up out on a limb at the end of the day. Even if it is in their experience then lets compare experience.

FWIW In my experience, a bass guitar is the sum of all its elements be it scale length, neck material, pickups, preamp, neck joint, wood density, fingerboard stiffness, blah blah. Any polarised argument in favour of one element would deny the manner in which all the other elements interact with one another.[/quote]
But you cant argue with Physics...length is good :) for Low end.

Bassmaking ISNT a science,nor is it alchemy.....

BACK ON TOPIC...heres the specs
Maple Knobs (They mellow the tone)
2 bnd Kent Armstrong eq
Mahogany/Ebony Knife-edge Bridge
Spalted Maple top
The headstock:-
Ebony/Spalted Maple cap
Ebony nut
Spalted Maple trussrod cover
Schaller Machine heads
Mahogany Walnut wings
Sycamore Mahogany thruneck
Ebony Fingerboard (fretless lined)
Spalted Maple top (so good I mentioned it twice)

Edited by ARGH

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[quote name='steve-soar' post='306697' date='Oct 14 2008, 09:49 PM']So, what you are saying is that you have never altered the action on any of the basses you have owned?
As for different types of wood making no difference in the tone of basses, and if that is the case, any instrument made of wood, I have never heard anything so ostrich-like in my life!
So, I don't like the action after a few days, I then have to take the time to go to Jims to have it tweeked, say if I live 200 miles away?[/quote]
If I dont change the brand/guage on an instrument,and Im happy..then no,I adjust an instrument when I get it,to what I like,but that not a straight,"Ive never...",but Ive had far more trouble with production instruments rather than custom,made for me instruments...save once on the 9 (it has a wooden bridge) over time Im finding I was wrong..and I will get it lowered,plus an afternoon with a friend,and a Bassmakers palace isnt really a chore is it?!

Ostrich like.... [url="http://www.ctbasses.com/"]http://www.ctbasses.com/[/url] click on articles,interview with Carl Thompson....Its not gospel,but I think he has far far far more experience building instruments than you and I combined.


Jim I think would sort a delivery service regarding if you had a prob with any instrument he makes..seeing as people buy from custom makers from different continents,usually the USA,I think its without saying there would be a guarantee (Email him) if there was any trouble. Jim has many many satisfied customers.

Edited by ARGH

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I hope all this discussion results in more people commissioning instruments from Jim, as I think they are probably great value for a handmade piece.
If all custom builders sold their creations based on a reasonable hourly rate of construction and cost price of materials, the vast majority of us wouldn't be able to afford them.
I've done the maths on a certain UK builder based on instruments built in one year and approximate costs of woods and hardware and believe me, they do it for their love of the art.

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[quote name='ARGH' post='306709' date='Oct 14 2008, 10:00 PM']But you cant argue with Physics...length is good :) for Low end.[/quote]
Certainly not, and you would be incorrect in assuming that I was adopting any kind of polarised position in regard to design issues. Often it boils down to a matter of taste and taste, as we all know, is subjective. Where we all need to be careful however, is asserting our taste as a universal truth, or assuming others are doing the same.

[quote name='ARGH' post='306709' date='Oct 14 2008, 10:00 PM']Bassmaking ISNT a science,nor is it alchemy.....[/quote]
Is this your opinion or something you are asserting as a truth? How does this tie in to whats been discussed already?

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Hello all,

Thanks for the comments. Even the "bug splat"!

The main topic seems to revolve around the pros and cons of the wooden knife-edge bridge. I'm usually loathe to comment on threads about my own instruments, but I have read the points raised here with interest, and I'd like to add my thoughts.

The intonation isn't perfect, much like an acoustic guitar. It works on the principle that if you intonate it on the strings at the extremes, then the other strings will be a good approximation. This works well on an acoustic, and it works on this bass, too. The only differences are that in this case I set the intonation correct on the E and G, as the middle four strings are most likely to be the most played on a six string bass, and the bridge isn't glued down - so if you change the string gauge, you can change the positioning of the bridge.

Argh is correct that it actually doesn't matter on a fretless, but if you intonate it well, the fret lines will be a good indication. I agree that the lines don't make sense in this argument, but if you play on the lines it'll play as in tune as a fretted instrument.

I think one of the points of a fretless instrument is that not only are you no longer relying on the even tempered scale, but also that the deflection of the strings no longer matters, as you can compensate for it with the left hand. If you follow this argument, then lines on a fretless bass don't make sense, regardless of what type of bridge you have.

Actually, the only point of a fretless bass is that it sounds great.

Setting the action on this bass is as much of a problem as it is on an acoustic guitar. Both have unsophisticated bridge systems. Both have a specific tone that requires the bridge system that they have.

The bottom line is, I made this bass to order. All spec was decided by the customer. The challenges of the knife-edge bridge system were explained to him, but he liked the tone and the look of this system. If you're changing the action and or string gauges on your bass all the time, have a fully adjustable bridge fitted. It's a lot easier for me to do. Earthing the strings on this system is no mean feat.

Best wishes,
Jim

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[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='306737' date='Oct 14 2008, 10:35 PM']Is this your opinion or something you are asserting as a truth? How does this tie in to whats been discussed already?[/quote]
Its a paraphrase..I think its from a Venn tutor....
Theres an awful lot of sh*te written on here about wood and tone and nuts and tone and body shape and tone. I think a little more fact as opinion rather than opinion as fact,should be exercised on here (Now thats MY opinon).Taste is one thing,just being plain wrong is something else,and peddling it as fact,before experience..alot of this is influenced by fashion,currantly theres a lot of Spalts and Burls on custom instruments,few years back it was quilts and flames...like the never ending Throughneck to Bolt on fashions.

But they dont effect tone..not as much as scale..scale always effects tone..longer shorter..whichever..woods cannot for that compensate that. Woods matter in regards to acoustics but once you plug in,you pretty much remove that.

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[quote name='ARGH' post='306762' date='Oct 14 2008, 11:12 PM']But they dont effect tone..not as much as scale..scale always effects tone..longer shorter..whichever..woods cannot for that compensate that. Woods matter in regards to acoustics but once you plug in,you pretty much remove that.[/quote]

Before stating that it comes down to physics you should do some thinking about the complex resonant system that is a bass guitar. I agree that scale length has a huge effect but it's almost a moot point because few will play anything other than a 34" or 35" scale. But the effect of the material characteristics (stiffness, self-damping, mass, etc) upon tone is provable through scientific analysis and your almost religious devotion to claiming "woods dont effect tone" (sic) is just as ridiculous a stance as those that won't play a bass that doesn't have a Brazilian Rosewood board because nothing else sounds the same...

Alex

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Alex you once wrote something along the lines of "AN instrument has to sound good acoustic before it sounds good electronically"..which is pish...we are not ..I repeat NOT playing acoustic instruments,we play Electronic instruments...all the wood in the world dosent change a P/U and eq's influence which is greater than the wood...and then the scales length which over-rides the whole thing,because it influences the instrument itself..

All the acoustic properties dont mean sh*t,when its plugged in.

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I'll just add, I once spent a day some time ago having my 2 Musicmans set up by Jim in Ripon and he is just the nicest most enthusiastic guy you could ever meet, his prices are reasonable. I discussed via email some rather heavy modding I was for a time considering doing on a Warwick and Jim was very enthusiastic and patient with my totally n00b questions.

Just to weigh in on woods, to say on one hand its a question of physics and then on the other to dismiss the effects of woods and other elements of construction is totally bogus. I'd say (putting an arbitrary figure on it) that 90% of the sound of the bass is the leccy alone, the remaining 10% is a complex tonal picture made up by the woods and construction technciques.

The point here is that most of the guys on here have played so many basses, are so obsesive about elements of their sound that no one elese would notice, that it sounds like a world of difference to have a maple vs a rosewood, or a wenge piece in the body or some-such. I've played two musicman basses identecal except for the necks (maple vs rosewood) and one would either have to be deaf or dogmatically stupid to try to argue there wasn't the most subtle difference in sound. This [i]is[/i] physics, diferent materials produce different characteristics.

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[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='306893' date='Oct 15 2008, 10:10 AM']I'm just too busy trying not to f*** up to even listen to the tone.[/quote]

Ahh, BigBeefChief san if you are concentlating at all you have a'ready failed

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[quote name='Toasted' post='306848' date='Oct 15 2008, 09:05 AM']Tone is in the fingers. You idiots.

*ducks*[/quote]

Hey, I can dig it :huh:

Seriously though, this thread deviated quite a bit, peace out guys :)

Loving that bass, definately Thompson-esque. About the whole non-intonated bridge and fretlines I'll give my 0.5 of a penny (i guess it's not the best advice, but hey, we're here to share experiences and info right?)

I've got a fretless p-bass and the intonation was set using a credit card at the 12th fret. Even though the base intonation is pretty close, I find that I need to ever so slightly sharpen some positions (as in rather than playing with a solid vibrato over a fretline, playing a vibrato over a fretline and leaning over to the sharp side ever so slightly). Long story short, I use the fretlines as a guide and my ears/hands do the rest, so while I used to be quite skeptical of non-intonated bridges, I can see how they could work with fretless.

For that reason, I've got an order a 36inch scale fretless with a single piece bridge (if you didn't like the bass in this thread, you're probably gonna HATE this xD). Attached is an example of the luthiers previous work and a rough mock-up a guy I know drew for me.

More info @ www.brownebasses.com

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[quote name='ARGH' post='306832' date='Oct 15 2008, 08:18 AM']Alex you once wrote something along the lines of "AN instrument has to sound good acoustic before it sounds good electronically"..which is pish...[/quote]

Pickups and EQ cannot change the dynamic and temporal response of an instrument, only the momentary frequency response. You can continue telling yourself (and me and everyone else) that acoustic response is irrelevant but you have never succeeded in explaining why. All you do is regurgitate the opinions of one luthier. Use your own brain!

Alex

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[quote name='alexclaber' post='307571' date='Oct 16 2008, 08:16 AM']Pickups and EQ cannot change the dynamic and temporal response of an instrument, only the momentary frequency response. You can continue telling yourself (and me and everyone else) that acoustic response is irrelevant but you have never succeeded in explaining why. All you do is regurgitate the opinions of one luthier. Use your own brain!

Alex[/quote]

:)

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