CamdenRob Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Master of none' timestamp='1440706272' post='2853208'] I'm a beginner and not ready for playing in public yet. And I can imagine that if I did, the first few gigs would have to be quite cheap. But I'm slightly surprised nobody's mentioned the Musician's Union. Is [i]nobody[/i] a member here? Are [url="http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/Files/Rates/Live-Rates/National-gig"]their rates[/url] so high that members are priced out of all but the very best gigs? [/quote] Whilst the MU offeres some great stuff, free insurance etc... it's not a real union. It's not going to be withdrawing its bands labour unless it's terms are met, leaving stages empty and venues with a rabble of angry middle aged blokes demanding yet another rendition of alright now... Edited August 28, 2015 by CamdenRob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1440681449' post='2852921']I like to hear bands charging £400 plus in a pub..as it sets the goal. The pub are willing to pay, if they CAN afford it so the precedent is there.[/quote] We've been having this discussion in one of my bands - trying to set a general rate to avoid the singer signing us up for no money gigs*. All of us have jobs so we're not in it for the money but fuel, PA and general upkeep of the tools cost us - we've settled on £250 if there's a house PA and £100 on top for use of ours, doesn't seem a lot but we realised quickly that small pubs can't stretch to that. If you're in a city you might find more places that can but the more rural you are the tougher it is. If we thought our local circuit could make £400 viable for them we'd be more than happy to do that! Towns around us seem to think £150 and a free pint each is their upper limit... * played a biker summer party last weekend. Someone from one of the invited MCCs asked us if we would do a party for them in Feb and asked the singer how much. £150 he trots out. As the gig is the on the north side of Manchester it's a decent trip for me - £150/5 = £30 each, most of that will go on fuel for me... Grrr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 [quote name='Iain' timestamp='1440746401' post='2853407'] We've been having this discussion in one of my bands - trying to set a general rate to avoid the singer signing us up for no money gigs*. All of us have jobs so we're not in it for the money but fuel, PA and general upkeep of the tools cost us - we've settled on £250 if there's a house PA and £100 on top for use of ours, doesn't seem a lot but we realised quickly that small pubs can't stretch to that. If you're in a city you might find more places that can but the more rural you are the tougher it is. If we thought our local circuit could make £400 viable for them we'd be more than happy to do that! Towns around us seem to think £150 and a free pint each is their upper limit... * played a biker summer party last weekend. Someone from one of the invited MCCs asked us if we would do a party for them in Feb and asked the singer how much. £150 he trots out. As the gig is the on the north side of Manchester it's a decent trip for me - £150/5 = £30 each, most of that will go on fuel for me... Grrr [/quote]as far as I'm concerned this is the crux of the matter, how much the can the venue afford, we, as a band, don't want to see venues losing money by putting us on, but we don't want to be ripped off either, so we adjust our rate accordingly, we have been known to take less than the agreed price if it's been a quiet night, but we always discuss thing as a band before financial decisions are made Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 [quote name='Iain' timestamp='1440746401' post='2853407'] We've been having this discussion in one of my bands - trying to set a general rate to avoid the singer signing us up for no money gigs*. All of us have jobs so we're not in it for the money but fuel, PA and general upkeep of the tools cost us - we've settled on £250 if there's a house PA and £100 on top for use of ours, doesn't seem a lot but we realised quickly that small pubs can't stretch to that. If you're in a city you might find more places that can but the more rural you are the tougher it is. If we thought our local circuit could make £400 viable for them we'd be more than happy to do that! Towns around us seem to think £150 and a free pint each is their upper limit... * played a biker summer party last weekend. Someone from one of the invited MCCs asked us if we would do a party for them in Feb and asked the singer how much. £150 he trots out. As the gig is the on the north side of Manchester it's a decent trip for me - £150/5 = £30 each, most of that will go on fuel for me... Grrr [/quote] You need to agree rates ASAP... Our lowist limit is £50 a head for a local gig..ie, under 30 mins drive. After that we start putting on £10 per head fuel... so we are up to £300. The market rate is £200-£300 for the area... so the goal is to hit £300 and beyond. A friend on mines band pack out pubs and should be charging £350 min... but getting a pub to commit to that is hard. I just suggest they go in £250 or £300 and say to prove we are worth the difference add £100 if the bar does great. I think this is playing fair with the pub market... £250 is the rate that any band can get.. but some bands are better and some bands just pull way more. However you slice it...the pub HAS to make decent money to pay out decent money. But if bands round here can't justify £250 thru bar sales..and that trend is typical, then they shouldn't get gigs and should give up.. I get that a venue can have an odd night, but gewnerally that is the game.. £250 and you do ok, you'll get asked back. £350-400 and you ram the bar will also get you asked back... it is all about track record ..more so that what you play. how you play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1440756470' post='2853512'] I get that a venue can have an odd night, but gewnerally that is the game.. £250 and you do ok, you'll get asked back. £350-400 and you ram the bar will also get you asked back... it is all about track record ..more so that what you play. how you play. [/quote] That's basically it - the pub needs to make money and the bands need enough for them to feel valued. For me it's a hobby - if it covers fuel and strings that's fine, anything beyond that is a bonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 The fuel is a good point. Our guitarist has a fully expensed company car. His trips to gigs cost him nothing extra to leaving his car in the drive. I only pay fuel for my car so at 60mpg it's costing me less than 10p a mile. Our singer drives an old Merc and at less than 20mpg he complained that we didn't get paid enough at one gig to cover his fuel. My feelings are mixed on that one. Especially as I offered to give him a lift and he turned it down because he didn't want to be there loading gear an hour before he needed to be there. (Subsequently turned up 10mins to start and complained how much it had cost him and that there was nowhere to park - but that's another thread ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Iain' timestamp='1440757945' post='2853530'] That's basically it - the pub needs to make money and the bands need enough for them to feel valued. For me it's a hobby - if it covers fuel and strings that's fine, anything beyond that is a bonus. [/quote] This is a perfectly acceptable viewpoint for me. But only with pubs and only on a standard Saturday where if your singer decides to bail on Saturday lunchtime due to a hangover, the pub just doesn't get live music that night. There are a hundred reasons why you might have to drop out at the last minute. If you are contracted to provide entertainment for a special event you'd better have a very good backup plan - preferably one that involves getting in a last minute band - for free (or certainly at no cost to the client!) Edited August 28, 2015 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gapiro Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I'm in the rich cambridge area, but the Ska Band [i][b][u]will not[/u][/b][/i] go out for under £400. Pub or anything. (6 members, £40 goes to PA pot, so £60/head minimum) Sunday we;re doing a 45 minute set for £400..... We're busy and have a gig or two every week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master of none Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1440744010' post='2853389'] Whilst the MU offeres some great stuff, free insurance etc... it's not a real union. It's not going to be withdrawing its bands labour unless it's terms are met, leaving stages empty and venues with a rabble of angry middle aged blokes demanding yet another rendition of alright now... [/quote] Understood! Although if all the good bands in an area were MU members, and charged MU rates, then the venues would have to pay up, or settle for inferior bands. I appreciate that's not very likely. But lots of people here are saying what they consider to be fair pay for a night's work. I'm just surprised that [i]nobody[/i] has mentioned what the MU consider to be a fair rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Lots of cash exchanging hands. No employment contracts. No tax. I'm not sure minimum wage or union involvement is very high on the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440758253' post='2853532'] The fuel is a good point. Our guitarist has a fully expensed company car. His trips to gigs cost him nothing extra to leaving his car in the drive. I only pay fuel for my car so at 60mpg it's costing me less than 10p a mile. Our singer drives an old Merc and at less than 20mpg he complained that we didn't get paid enough at one gig to cover his fuel. My feelings are mixed on that one. Especially as I offered to give him a lift and he turned it down because he didn't want to be there loading gear an hour before he needed to be there. (Subsequently turned up 10mins to start and complained how much it had cost him and that there was nowhere to park - but that's another thread ) [/quote] and that is where my patience would run very thin... I'm happy for an equal split...IF all things are equal, but in the real world, they generally aren't. If we use a truly exceptional drummer..and sometimes we do... we might have to pay for the 'priveledge' and pay petrol and exes over and above but we make a point that he will not earn more over a year per gig that the rest of us core members, That means for big payers, he is still on a wage...but you can see how it can get tricky etc etc .. Basically we pay him what he asks and can afford with in reasonable limits...but that is the price you get for a 'world class player'.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 [quote name='gapiro' timestamp='1440765292' post='2853644'] I'm in the rich cambridge area, but the Ska Band [i][b][u]will not[/u][/b][/i] go out for under £400. Pub or anything. (6 members, £40 goes to PA pot, so £60/head minimum) Sunday we;re doing a 45 minute set for £400..... We're busy and have a gig or two every week. [/quote] Ska bands around here are the best pulls... consistantly. Not many bands get into the £500 bracket but most of the ones that could are Ska bands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 [quote name='Master of none' timestamp='1440767857' post='2853692'] Understood! Although if all the good bands in an area were MU members, and charged MU rates, then the venues would have to pay up, or settle for inferior bands. I appreciate that's not very likely. But lots of people here are saying what they consider to be fair pay for a night's work. I'm just surprised that [i]nobody[/i] has mentioned what the MU consider to be a fair rate. [/quote] You have to make sure your market can pay close to what you both decide is feasible. Of course, the argument against free bands could also be extended to non MU rate bands... but you have to find a level that works within your market. That is why if the gig is a fun good gig, I'll do it cheaper... It depends where you set your 'how picky' bar... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 What is the MU rate incidentally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 It really depends on the gig. They schedule is quite big. Covers travel over a certain time and distance and waiting time and rehearsal and performance rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440774274' post='2853784'] It really depends on the gig. They schedule is quite big. Covers travel over a certain time and distance and waiting time and rehearsal and performance rates. [/quote] Oh I see... that makes more sense than a blanket rate. I assume they have contacted landlords etc to see whats viable, not much point dictating a rate that no-one can afford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1440772198' post='2853748'] and that is where my patience would run very thin... I'm happy for an equal split...IF all things are equal, but in the real world, they generally aren't. If we use a truly exceptional drummer..and sometimes we do... we might have to pay for the 'priveledge' and pay petrol and exes over and above but we make a point that he will not earn more over a year per gig that the rest of us core members, That means for big payers, he is still on a wage...but you can see how it can get tricky etc etc .. Basically we pay him what he asks and can afford with in reasonable limits...but that is the price you get for a 'world class player'.. [/quote] And this is where I got quite badly burned doing a wedding gig at mates rates in a past band. The drummer and singer pulled out a few days before and we had to get in deps. Who wanted a premium. The fee of £500 was £200 each and then £25 each for the rest of us. For what was 12 hours out of the house and £20 in fuel. If the keys player had dropped out we'd have been seriously out of pocket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Yes..maybe the 'importance' of a gig might need a built in price to cater for those sort of events..?? When we've wanted deps... on a saturdy night we've found £150 plus travel was the typical 'ask' The gigs would certainly have that in them but our mates rates started at £600.....for this very reason so we could still afford to be 'stung' by a dep for £150 and not be too badly off. But they other thing is...'whose mates'...they may be the singers, but they might not be mine..then the Mate rate introducer might take the biggest hit. The other thing we found was..what does £150 get you from a player point of view...?? If I had to give 'honest' feedback,. I'd say none of the deps we used were unqualified successes'.. degrees of acceptable, for sure, and we used them more than once, but you felt you got thru the gig rather than really delivered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1440773510' post='2853767'] Ska bands around here are the best pulls... consistantly. Not many bands get into the £500 bracket but most of the ones that could are Ska bands. [/quote] The disadvantage, of course, is that you have to play ska. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Sounds like I ought to put up my depping rate! I normally find out what the split will be and either take the gig or don't. Occasionally I may negotiate a bit more for petrol money. I guess this is partly because I hugely enjoy depping! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 [quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1440786723' post='2853923'] The disadvantage, of course, is that you have to play ska. [/quote] PASS...!!! 50 yr old guys in 'arringtons and pork pie hats that can't dance to anything else... you have got to be kidding. And where are the women..??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 [quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1440787182' post='2853928'] I guess this is partly because I hugely enjoy depping! [/quote] That's just awesome - I wouldn't dare - just not flexible and good enough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 [quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1440786723' post='2853923'] The disadvantage, of course, is that you have to play ska. [/quote] pah! you haven't lived! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeEvans Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 I guess the bottom line, as ever, is dependent on where the money is coming from. A pub with free entry needs to sell a heck of a lot more beer than usual to pay a band £400 - I don't know what the mark-up is on drinks but Im guessing that to pay a band £400 the landlord would need to expect to sell £1000-worth more beer because of the band's presence. With any ticketed venue you can just multiply up: punters x ticket price - some agreed amount of fixed costs = band fee. If the promoter also runs the bar then the fixed costs can be lower but if the promoter is booking the venue then fixed costs will include venue hire and the promoter's cut too. So it's not about how much you want to get paid, it's about how much money you bring into the venue. Weddings (funerals, private parties, Mitzvahs both Bar and Bat) remain the musician's best friend, as they probably have been since the Neolithic era, because the fee is just down to the perceived value of the band, so that's where a band can just set their fee and stick to it, perhaps with some flexibility up and down depending on the details of the day - two 1.5 hour sets with two hours in-between and the soundcheck needing to take place three hours before the first set would cost more than one 30 minute set... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 You do need to keep track of these sort of things but a barrel of beer round here to the tired poub could £115-120 per barrell..so that is £400 gross on the bareel @ £3.50...... so they are making around £1.50 -2.00 per pint. Add into that add Brwery subs, and you can see £250 is a kind of stock figure for them. They have all exes to come out of that figure, of course, plus it also needs to sub the bad band night. So..it isn't reasonable to charge silly money because you made that for them..and not take a hit if you didn't. The LL needs to balance this out across the year...so if you play there 3-4 a year you can't be paid what you are worth unless you are prepared to give some money back at some point.. Typically... This is why, IMO, piub gigs need to be GOOD gigs rather than just gigs. Too much work for the money, otherwise....but you could say that about weddings etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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