Bassnut62 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Surely not? Is somebody messing with our universe today?...... [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/schoolreport/26774451"]http://www.bbc.co.uk...report/26774451[/url] Edited March 28, 2014 by Bassnut62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 [quote name='Bassnut62' timestamp='1396004730' post='2408852'] Surely not? Is somebody messing with our [s]universe[/s] dogma today?...... [/quote] Fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 [quote name='Bassnut62' timestamp='1396004730' post='2408852'] Surely not? Is somebody messing with our universe today?...... [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/schoolreport/26774451"]http://www.bbc.co.uk...report/26774451[/url] [/quote] Was this an interview about all the things Michael Gove thinks he can do but actually can't? Rap. Check! Engage with children. Check! His job. Check! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Did you actually watch that clip? He didn't claim to DO rap, indeed he specifically said he couldn't sing, he only said he LIKED rap and was at least able to back up this assertion when put on the spot. Inconvenient truths eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnefc42 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1396006278' post='2408885'] Inconvenient truths eh? [/quote] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1396006278' post='2408885'] Did you actually watch that clip? He didn't claim to DO rap, indeed he specifically said he couldn't sing, he only said he LIKED rap and was at least able to back up this assertion when put on the spot. Inconvenient truths eh? [/quote] Yes I did. There's only one reason that tw@t can't sing and it's the same reason thousands of our young people will never pursue a career in music. His total disregard for the arts. The only 'truth' is that we'll never progress with this man in charge of how our education system supports our young people and their natural aptitudes. The quicker he is gone, the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Ignoring the politics, it's still a comically cringeworthy attempt to appear "down with the kids" IMO. It's worthy of Alan Partridge! Edited March 28, 2014 by Beer of the Bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Burrito Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 How we all love a politician looking slightly silly; all jolly harmless really. I don't care for Gove personally but he comes across almost sweet here. And I must confess I was sharing this clip last night with friends on Facebook. Working a lot in schools myself I deliberately tend to name check Showaddywaddy or Shakin Stevens whenever I get asked about music by the kids. He does gain / lose kudos (depending on your angle) for name checking Chuck D and stating that Wham are a bit vanilla. But perhaps that's just the way they roll in his 'hood!? Bear jokes, innit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Typos in your title? Is a thrapper and is public enemy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) [quote name='skej21' timestamp='1396010481' post='2408967'] Yes I did. There's only one reason that tw@t can't sing and it's the same reason thousands of our young people will never pursue a career in music. His total disregard for the arts. [/quote] That's the excuse I shall use when asked if I can manage some backing vocals. 'Sorry. I cannot sing because I have a total disregard for the arts.' It is a well-documented phenomenon. Those who disparage the works of Mr Damian Hirst are incapable of singing in the keys of Bb and D; opera-haters can only sing the notes comprising a C Major triad. I might continue this riff but it would be to Labour the point. The brief clip evidences Mr Gove to be a cheerful, self-deprecating sort of chap, entirely at odds with the image of 'Destroyer Of Hope' as propagated by his political foes. Proves one shouldn't believe what one reads. Edited March 28, 2014 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1396015341' post='2409066'] That's the excuse I shall use when asked if I can manage some backing vocals. 'Sorry. I cannot sing because I have a total disregard for the arts.' It is a well-documented phenomenon. Those who disparage the works of Mr Damian Hirst are incapable of singing in the keys of Bb and D; opera-haters can only sing the notes comprising a C Major triad. I might continue this riff but it would be as Laboured as the sentiments which provoke it. The brief clip evidences Mr Gove to be a cheerful, self-deprecating sort of chap, entirely at odds with the image of 'Destroyer Of Hope' as propagated by his political foes. Proves one shouldn't believe what one reads. [/quote] True. Fortunately, I don't have to believe what I read. As a music teacher, I saw first hand what Gove has done to our education system and it's awful. It's taking people out of the profession and driving standards down, leaving a large number of our young people with no hope of having the support they need to succeed. Although that's fine because when he's on tv he's really nice so who cares! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 [quote name='skej21' timestamp='1396015844' post='2409071'] True. Fortunately, I don't have to believe what I read. As a music teacher, I saw first hand what Gove has done to our education system and it's awful. It's taking people out of the profession and driving standards down, leaving a large number of our young people with no hope of having the support they need to succeed. Although that's fine because when he's on tv he's really nice so who cares! :-) [/quote] Realising only now that you are a music teacher, I sympathise with your reservations about Mr Gove's policies and the possible outcomes. Nobody likes 'dogma-driven change' and education has been a political football for too long. Based on your experience, which of Mr Gove's measures do you feel has been most damaging in terms of music education? And in an ideal world and given a blank page, what could be done to improve musical learning in schools? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I don't vote or have any particular political affiliation, but when I saw the clip, it was always going to be lose lose for the guy. If it had been someone from the Labour party (or probably any party in opposition) the result/response from the media would have been completely the opposite and showing they were in fact, [i]down with the kids[/i]. On the radio this morning (LBC), the ten o'clock show led with a strapline of whether or not Michael Gove was the right person to be running the education department because he 'spontaneously broke out into a rap'. I mean, come on. What if he'd been a fan of Slayer? What is the guy supposed to do, sit at home and listen to classical and opera because that alone is the public's expectation of what Tories listen to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1396016795' post='2409081'] Realising only now that you are a music teacher, I sympathise with your reservations about Mr Gove's policies and the possible outcomes. Nobody likes 'dogma-driven change' and education has been a political football for too long. Based on your experience, which of Mr Gove's measures do you feel has been most damaging in terms of music education? And in an ideal world and given a blank page, what could be done to improve musical learning in schools? [/quote] That would be a VERY long document and probably not for Basschat lol. I disagreed with the uncertainty he caused by never clarifying whether music would be made a non-compulsory subject which made schools hesitate over employing new teachers in case they weren't needed (as it's very hard to remove a teacher from a position once they have it). This resulted in a large number of NQT teachers (who were fantastically talented teachers) that I knew from missing out on jobs and the chance to really inspire and develop pupils' education. I think the worst idea Mr Gove has come up with is changing coursework and assessments during courses to single assessment. That instantly alienates a large majority of pupils (particularly those with learning difficulties) who often cannot manage to recall all knowledge on a single occasion under extreme pressure. It also undervalues the importance of working hard consistently, as it makes the single assessment just a memory test. How much information can you regurgitate on a single occasion. Also, whilst some subjects are more suited to this format (math, science etc), some are not. It's a system that accommodates some and neglects the rest. That is not a fair system and does not offer an equal opportunity to be educated. Edited March 28, 2014 by skej21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1396016795' post='2409081'] Based on your experience, which of Mr Gove's measures do you feel has been most damaging in terms of music education? And in an ideal world and given a blank page, what could be done to improve musical learning in schools? [/quote] Sometimes, I wish Basschat had a 'like' button as well as the Report, Delete, Edit, Multiquote and Quote buttons. My experience from my school (a long time ago it has to be said; asecondary modern and under Labour), was that music lessons were wholly classical based and my memories are almost exclusively of staring out of the window or drawing squares, triangles and pentangles in the air with my index finger whilst trying to interpret timing in whatever piece was being played on the music department hi-fi. There was zero correlation with what was the mainstream. Music is a discovery. Like art, theatre, film, literature. I don't honestly think you can be taught it like geography; you need fundamentally to be interested and have ability in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) [quote name='skej21' timestamp='1396017848' post='2409090'] That would be a VERY long document and probably not for Basschat lol. [/quote] I very much take your point about the lack of clarity regarding music as a non-compulsory (optional?) subject. If a lack of forethought and clarity harmed not only teachers' careers but also educational development then Mr Gove and his department are at fault. Being somewhat of an Old Bob, I may be at variance with you in respect of coursework and single assessments. While sympathising that some may suffer unduly in certain circumstances, I think that learning to cope with a degree of intense, short-term pressure is a good thing in life, particularly if one's inclinations lead one to public performance in the back bar of The Cat And Bagpipes on an unruly, beer-fuelled Saturday night. Edited March 28, 2014 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) [quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1396018460' post='2409095'] Sometimes, I wish Basschat had a 'like' button as well as the Report, Delete, Edit, Multiquote and Quote buttons. My experience from my school (a long time ago it has to be said; asecondary modern and under Labour), was that music lessons were wholly classical based and my memories are almost exclusively of staring out of the window or drawing squares, triangles and pentangles in the air with my index finger whilst trying to interpret timing in whatever piece was being played on the music department hi-fi. There was zero correlation with what was the mainstream. Music is a discovery. Like art, theatre, film, literature. I don't honestly think you can be taught it like geography; you need fundamentally to be interested and have ability in it. [/quote] I completely agree! Music in schools should be an exploration of lots of styles and a balance of history, theory etc and performance. How will you ever discover an ability or interest if you never have an opportunity to discover it? One of my most accomplished pupils came from a really deprived family who had no access to music at home. They had no tv, no radio, no way of affording an instrument. But after lessons at school, discovered a talent and passion that (through a number of kind gestures) has resulted in a place at a well respected music conservatoire to study performance. These are the kind of people who will slip through the net now. Edited March 28, 2014 by skej21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1396018929' post='2409104'] Being somewhat of an Old Bob, I may be at variance with you in respect of coursework and single assessments. While sympathising that some may suffer unduly in certain circumstances, I think that learning to cope with a degree of intense, short-term pressure is a good thing in life, particularly if one's inclinations lead one to public performance in the public bar of The Cat And Bagpipes on an unruly, beer-fuelled Saturday night. [/quote] I agree. I'm not saying it's a poor approach but that it's a poor approach for EVERYTHING. A mix of assessment types for different subjects would be much fairer. A one-off maths assessment is fair as it show the working out and knowledge needed to answer the question. A subject like design or music is different. You can't expect someone to conceptualise a design idea without considerable amounts of research and working through ideas (same with composition). If you work as a designer, you don't just design one option and call it a day. You research and do numerous deigns that help to focus the final outcome so coursework that includes this process is important for assessment but also in terms of giving pupils a realistic experience of how the process would be completed in the real world (so if they pursue it as a career, they understand what it entails). They need to have balance that at the moment, doesn't exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingus Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Without wishing to get involved in a political discussion, I think Michael Gove is doing a fantastic job, as are the rest of the current Coalition . When all is said and done, his policies and those of the Government as a whole are designed to keep children from less privileged backgrounds in their right and proper place and keep the best opportunities for those from better-off families that really deserve them .I am happy about that state of affairs because the long-term effect of such a policy will inevitably be a class-based revolution, in which the kids excluded from opportunity will overthrow their oppressors by violent means, and, significantly, also by using rap. Yes, that's right, rap. The kids are going to rap their way to freedom , and there is nothing that Michael Gove and the rest of his kind can do to stop it. The seeds have already been sewn. It will be like Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, but with some Hip Hop grooves thrown into the mix . Edited March 28, 2014 by Dingus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) [quote name='skej21' timestamp='1396019377' post='2409114'] I'm not saying it's a poor approach but that it's a poor approach for EVERYTHING. A mix of assessment types for different subjects would be much fairer. A one-off maths assessment is fair as it show the working out and knowledge needed to answer the question. A subject like design or music is different. [/quote] That is an excellent point. Any system which imposes ubiquitous inflexibility is a bad system. One assumes that a conservatoire pursues a policy of 'mixed' assessments; if so, it would be logical that earlier stages in the process feed in to the approach adopted by the supervening educator. The problem is many faceted; public perception, media coverage, political agenda, resource allocation all play into the process before any child even enters the school music room. Valuable insights such as Skej21's are lost in a blizzard of (no pun intended) playground abuse from both sides of the political spectrum. We do ourselves no favours by reducing the debate to charges of 'Being a bell-end'. It permits politicians to shrug off criticism as being 'froth'. My school music lessons were a very long time ago. A former cruise-ship pianist turned pedagogue would sit at the Joanna in the corner, smoking an uninterrupted succession of cigarettes down to the stub and roaring 'Sing, you stupid boys!'. Then he would hand out a collection of dilapidated violins good only for kindling and charge us 35p each per week for after hours 'orchestra' lessons which did not even involve tuning the damn things. I suspect more musical careers were blighted by this dreadful, grasping old toad than any government policy. But let's focus on solutions. My dear Skej - is it a matter of syllabus, approach, resources or established musical education philosophy which holds back the budding [s]Vanessa Mae[/s] YoYo Ma? Ignoring Mr Gove for a moment, what could be changed for the better? [color=#ffffff].[/color] Edited March 28, 2014 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1396021169' post='2409141'] That is an excellent point. Any system which imposes ubiquitous inflexibility is a bad system. One assumes that a conservatoire pursues a policy of 'mixed' assessments; if so, it would be logical that earlier stages in the process feed in to the approach adopted by the supervening educator. The problem is many faceted; public perception, media coverage, political agenda, resource allocation all play into the process before any child even enters the school music room. Valuable insights such as Skej21's are lost in a blizzard of (no pun intended) playground abuse from both sides of the political spectrum. We do ourselves no favours by reducing the debate to charges of 'Being a bell-end'. It permits politicians to shrug off criticism as being 'froth'. My school music lessons were a very long time ago. A former cruise-ship pianist turned pedagogue would sit at the Joanna in the corner, smoking an uninterrupted succession of cigarettes down to the stub and roaring 'Sing, you stupid boys!'. Then he would hand out a collection of dilapidated violins good only for kindling and charge us 35p each per week for after hours 'orchestra' lessons which did not even involve tuning the damn things. I suspect more musical careers were blighted by this dreadful, grasping old toad than any government policy. But let's focus on solutions. My dear Skej - is it a matter of syllabus, approach, resources or established musical education philosophy which holds back the budding [s]Vanessa Mae[/s] YoYo Ma? Ignoring Mr Gove for a moment, what could be changed for the better? [color=#ffffff].[/color] [/quote] I'm not sure there's an approach that does work and with that in mind, I think Gove has a difficult job. However, he needs to realise that the best way to create a rounded approach is to take a consensus of opinions from people who have dedicated their life to researching teaching methods and compound as many of the successful findings into an approach that can be fairly assessed but more importantly, get the best possible outcome from EVERY pupil. It's not about acheiving a perceived standard of success, it's about acheiving what is the best possible standard for each individual (which isn't the same thing!). Goves idea of 'teaching standards should be like they were when I was little' shows his lack of knowledge in the area. He wants us to revert to a lesser teaching standard because he is familiar with it. What he should be doing is admitting his lack of knowledge and drawing on the expertise of people in that area to move things forward. However, that means he'd have to lose face and that's where the problem lies. Politicians don't like to show weakness as it belittles their position in the eyes of the public, meaning we're less likely to vote them in again. Edited March 28, 2014 by skej21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 [quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1396020327' post='2409127']...The seeds have already been sewn...[/quote] What's your point..? Aren't you simply needling us, or have you chosen the wrong thread..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassnut62 Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1396020327' post='2409127'] Without wishing to get involved in a political discussion, I think Michael Gove is doing a fantastic job, as are the rest of the current Coalition . When all is said and done, his policies and those of the Government as a whole are designed to keep children from less privileged backgrounds in their right and proper place and keep the best opportunities for those from better-off families that really deserve them .I am happy about that state of affairs because the long-term effect of such a policy will inevitably be a class-based revolution, in which the kids excluded from opportunity will overthrow their oppressors by violent means, and, significantly, also by using rap. Yes, that's right, rap. The kids are going to rap their way to freedom , and there is nothing that Michael Gove and the rest of his kind can do to stop it. The seeds have already been sewn. It will be like Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, but with some Hip Hop grooves thrown into the mix . [/quote] Holy Sh1t, I did think rap could bring about a revolution; but in the words of PE or NWA, not a rap by Michael Gove.......This day is getting more strange! Edited March 28, 2014 by Bassnut62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingus Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1396022358' post='2409163'] What's your point..? Aren't you simply needling us, or have you chosen the wrong thread..? [/quote] My point is that this country is already a long way down the road to where we are headed, and Michael Gove is just the smarmy public face of a powerful group of crypto-facists who are too savvy to make any frank public admissions of their true sympathies. But , as Boethius famously observed, history is a spinning wheel, and those currently at the bottom of its' cycle will inevitably have their day on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 [quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1396025019' post='2409196']...history is a spinning wheel...[/quote] Nice analogy, but weave yet to cotton on, it seams, darn it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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