Vintage Fenders - Strats and Teles vs Ps and Js

[cytania]

Just forking off from the Vintage Fender value thread here and now. No this isn't some kind of tag team wrestling match...

It's just occurred to me that all your basic original Fender designs have a common design. Now with vintage guitars, such as strats and teles, collectors and players talk about the tone in terms of the mid/treble sound that guitarists want. With vintage basses, such as Precisions and Jazzes, we talk about the tone in terms of deep bass, thrum, growl etc.

Now since all these guitars are based on bolt-on necks, ash/alder bodies, maple necks etc (the very Fender vibe that can give a band a homogenous look, see the first Shadows LP cover) then shouldn't they age in the same way? If basses gain more low end gravitas over the decades then shouldn't strats and teles also age towards a bassier, thuddier sound?

Edited November 10, 2013 by cytania

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='cytania' timestamp='1384075373' post='2272392']
If basses gain more low end gravitas over the decades ...
[/quote]

Do they really though? Vintage basses are now getting played through more efficient modern kit with a wider range of tonal adjustment, and it's hard to hold a sound in your head for a few minutes, let alone 40 years, so can we really make an objective comparison?

[Ou7shined]

Exactly. It's all just a load of codswallop and sales schpiel to justify desirability. It's delusional crediting every bass from an era with the same coveted and subjective qualities when identical engineering and technical spec is present in modern examples.

[krysh]

I've played the whole range of basses and guitars over the years and yes, there is something faszinating with vintage basses and guitars. most of them feel more smooth and more comfortable, even if this might only be a placebo effect. but new instrumens can provide the same.

but regarding more lows on strats and teles, yes they are there - with the good ones. it seems that played good vintage instruments provide a more smooth, more even and tonally extended sound with better harmonics through all the registers to my ears, but this is nothing a very good new guitar won't do if you play it a lot...

I personally don't need a vintage instrument to play or sound better. since I never had a typical sound in mind but still am in search for MY sound. vintage guitars don't help me there, but maybe they will do for others.

Edited November 10, 2013 by krysh

[Chiliwailer]

In my humble opinion it's simple. Fender, until around 1966, used excellent quality woods and vintage Fender pickups from that era were better made and now have demagnatised poles which make them sound different to modern ones and very pleasing to my ear. I don't feel the woods age and change the sound dramatically, but the pickup does.

I love vintage Fender more than anything, but I keep my feet on the ground as modern basses can sound awesome too, just a different awesome that's equally viable.

[risingson]

I've not played enough vintage examples of Fender guitars (played plenty of basses) to really have any idea of whether this is true or not, although some of my guitarist friends have vintage Fender guitars and to be honest I can't hear the difference when they play live.

My opinion as a vintage Fender fan isn't that it's so much that the sound gets 'better' over time, rather I love the feel, appearance and comfort of a well used Fender bass guitar. It fascinates me, I love it. I do think the sound of Fender basses change over time, this is something I have no honest or scientific explanation for but something I've just noted having used and played both new and old Fenders before. The crux of the sound is always the same though, and there are more variables involved than just age in it.

Edited November 10, 2013 by risingson

[merello]

My 70s Fender Precision in walnut brown would be worth a fortune today - it was sh*t.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Chiliwailer' timestamp='1384084107' post='2272499']
In my humble opinion it's simple. Fender, until around 1966, used excellent quality woods and vintage Fender pickups from that era were better made and now have demagnatised poles which make them sound different to modern ones and very pleasing to my ear. I don't feel the woods age and change the sound dramatically, but the pickup does.
[/quote]

So to nail the vintage sound we just need to use weaker magnets. Seems a far more pragmatic approach than spending thousands.

[Chiliwailer]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1384086829' post='2272537']
So to nail the vintage sound we just need to use weaker magnets. Seems a far more pragmatic approach than spending thousands.
[/quote]

Haha! Not quite what I was saying but I won't argue with that either

[krysh]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1384086829' post='2272537']
So to nail the vintage sound we just need to use weaker magnets. Seems a far more pragmatic approach than spending thousands.
[/quote]
definately one part of the mystery.

[BigRedX]

But it isn't a vintage sound is it?

All those old records were made when the guitars and basses being used were new instruments.

[Chiliwailer]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1384089850' post='2272593']
But it isn't a vintage sound is it?

All those old records were made when the guitars and basses being used were new instruments.
[/quote]

Sure, good point, but those instruments were also mixed with 2 inch tape, valve compressors and old amps, mics and desks etc.

This one serious can of worms without a map, no?!!

[BigRedX]

There's plenty of valve compressors both old and new around in recording studios, and old amps were new amps back in the day, and when valves were still commonplace and plentiful few people care about what make they were so long as the equipment they powered worked as it should.

IMO when it comes to recording, the environment and practices used in studios is far more important than the technology for capturing "the sound".

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='cytania' timestamp='1384075373' post='2272392']
Just forking off from the Vintage Fender value thread here and now. No this isn't some kind of tag team wrestling match...

[b]It's just occurred to me that all your basic original Fender designs have a common design.[/b] Now with vintage guitars, such as strats and teles, collectors and players talk about the tone in terms of the mid/treble sound that guitarists want. With vintage basses, such as Precisions and Jazzes, we talk about the tone in terms of deep bass, thrum, growl etc.

Now since all these guitars are based on bolt-on necks, ash/alder bodies, maple necks etc (the very Fender vibe that can give a band a homogenous look, see the first Shadows LP cover) then shouldn't they age in the same way? If basses gain more low end gravitas over the decades then shouldn't strats and teles also age towards a bassier, thuddier sound?
[/quote]
You seem to be assuming that common design and build properties lead to common sound and that, for example, a Precision bass always sounds the same - this is simply not true. James Jamerson versus JJ Burnel, for example, both P basses but really not at all the same.

[chris_b]

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]My view is that the vintage Fender is better story started because back then they were better. Fender QC hit the rocks when Leo left and the Pre-CBS term summed up the situation. But those “awful” CBS Fenders were still better than most of the competition and even then 90% of players and 100% of the audience couldn't tell if a vintage Fender sounded better after the band started up. In the 70’s many guitarists wanted Les Paul’s anyway![/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I played with 2 guitarists, one had a scrappy 70's Strat and the other had a boutique Melancon Pro Artist Strat. Played on their own the Fender sounded slightly sweeter but lacked punch, the Melancon was exactly the opposite, but when we recorded the band the only difference was in the playing.

I'd like to have a good vintage Fender as an investment. I actually have a great sounding vintage Fender which isn't worth much because it only sounds great because of the mods. Ho Hum![/font][/size]

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1384086829' post='2272537']
So to nail the vintage sound we just need to use weaker magnets. Seems a far more pragmatic approach than spending thousands.
[/quote]
A few of the pickup companies have tried this approach already, and it can indeed make for a slightly mellower "old sounding" guitar. I had a guitar for a while with Seymour Duncan Alnico II pickups. Alnico II even when new is weaker than the standard alnico V magnets, approximating an older partly demagnetised pickup.

[Ou7shined]

Surely components and construction techniques available nowadays can be better or (giving a wide benefit of doubt) at least equal those from 60 years ago. It's bonkers to suggest that the holy grail in tone is exclusive to a quantity of mass produced instruments from a decade in the middle of the last century.

For my money there's still no argument to beat "it's all in the fingers".
People are desiring to emulate great players who back then had very little choice of where to go to get a playable bass. Alas there's little point defining the leading brand's superiority over other very similar examples as their mystical powers are so deeply rooted in our culture now. The only proof is in a blind test, however very few vintage experts will capitulate to scientific proof. Reminds me of a famous book by Richard Dawkins.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1384097624' post='2272687']
A few of the pickup companies have tried this approach already, and it can indeed make for a slightly mellower "old sounding" guitar. I had a guitar for a while with Seymour Duncan Alnico II pickups. Alnico II even when new is weaker than the standard alnico V magnets, approximating an older partly demagnetised pickup.
[/quote]

Yep I agree (I've used them myself) but I refer you to BRX's post above. This is a reasonable process to recreate what a vintage instrument sounds like now.... but what made them sound vintage when they were new?

I'm still gonna say it's in the fingers.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Ou7shined

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1384098257' post='2272701']
Yep I agree (I've used them myself) but I refer you to BRX's post above. This is a reasonable process to recreate what a vintage instrument sounds like now.... but what made them sound vintage when they were new?

I'm still gonna say it's in the fingers.
[/quote]
Yes, I'd agree with you there. The artists we still listen to from the 60s sound great playing 50s/60s Fenders and Gibsons, but I'm sure at the time there would have been a whole load of also-rans playing the same instruments and sounding like nothing special.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Beer of the Bass

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1384098880' post='2272712']
Yes, I'd agree with you there. The artists we still listen to from the 60s sound great playing 50s/60s Fenders and Gibsons, but I'm sure at the time there would have been a whole load of also-rans playing the same instruments and sounding like nothing special.
[/quote]

+1

[Telebass]

I approached this weaker magnet idea another way. Another effect of weaker magnets is slightly improved sustain due to less 'pull'. I installed a SD SBP-2 in my new bitsa. This has standard magnets, but is overwound. By setting it a bit lower, the magnetic interference is reduced a bit, with the hotter wind bringing the signal back up a bit.
That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it.
Good excuse to buy a new pickup, anyway!

[Telebass]

And it sounded just fine on the gig. Which it probably would have done no matter how I set it!

Edited November 10, 2013 by Telebass

[cytania]

I'm very sure that bass guitars do 'play-in' and 'open up' sound wise over the first few years. Not sure if the process continues over the decades though. Also wonder what happens to basses left in cupboards for years… do they lose it and go dull/dead again?

Double-bass players certainly have to keep their instrument alive by playing it and acoustic guitars take about 3 days playing to 'revive', but basses I'm not sure yet...