sweetspot questions

[stingrayPete1977]

Been reading up and the fine tuners are for tuning the after bridge string length! No idea why, so much db learning to do.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1368903490' post='2082911']
Been reading up and the fine tuners are for tuning the after bridge string length! No idea why, so much db learning to do.
[/quote]
Can you get these fine tuners for DB? The link you provided has them for violin/viola/cello but not DB.

You can't change the pitch of a string by changing the length of string beyond the bridge or beyond the nut. You can change the pitch by changing the tension in the string by using a tuner (which winds the string or pulls the string tighter) at either end - nut or bridge. Now the fine tuner can operate by winding the string or straight pulling the string with a lever (and looking at them that is how many work) but it is not the length of the string past the nut or bridge that matters.

Edited May 18, 2013 by EssentialTension

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1368894707' post='2082789']
So, there's no such thing as a 'sweetspot'.

There's merely different places to put a pickup and each place will be a factor in the overall sound of the bass. An aspect fo the sound of a P bass comes from the position of it's pickup. Same for a J bass, but the pickups are in different palces. And same again for an MM or any other bass. Where you place the pickup makes a difference but the idea of some magical 'sweetspot' - it's nonsense.
[/quote]

This is pretty much it. If the pickup sounds good where it is, that's your sweet spot

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1368904194' post='2082923']

Can you get these fine tuners for DB? The link you provided has them for violin/viola/cello but not DB.

You can't change the pitch of a string by changing the length of string beyond the bridge or beyond the nut. You can change the pitch by changing the tension in the string by using a tuner (which winds the string or pulls the string tighter) at either end - nut or bridge. Now the fine tuner can operate by winding the string or straight pulling the string with a lever (and looking at them that is how many work) but it is not the length of the string past the nut or bridge that matters.
[/quote]
Yes they are fitted to db too, the problem is that they will be fighting the tuning of the bass on the speaking length so it looks like a bitch to get right, once bang on with your choice of strings and bridge fitted where you want for overall tone you can measure each string length after the bridge and have a tail carved to that exact shape to remove the need for tuners, you can see why db setups are not for novices!

[Prime_BASS]

My OP question in bottle: does the sweetspot move in different scales lengths?

Answer: an arguement about violin tuners.


Maybe I should have been a bit clearer in the OP?

Let's say I have a EBMM which has a humbucker in The sweetspot(which must exist since quiet few people seem to mention such a thing, solets not throw handbags about the technicality of the ambiguity of phrases used and accepted by the majority of people, lest we end up talking about the how much break angle is needed on a god damn harp for it to have better tension/compliance/stiffness)
And i want a similar sound but from a 32 inch scale bass, surely the pickup should be the same distance from the bridge as with on a 34inch scale if I was tuning with the same strings in the same tuning.

In my head it would be it would need to be closer to the bridge somewhat?
Same as if you want a similar compliance/tension at a lower tuning than stanard then you need to use thicker strings, no?

[stingrayPete1977]

Ok serious answer then and you might still not like it be warned...all the images I have seen of Leo building prototype basses involve him sitting with a bass fitted with a sliding pickup in wooden rails, where it sounded best the factory models got them

By changing the scale of the bass by two inches or more I'd think it would totally change the inherent tone so the sweet spot (invented by Leo and blocks of wood) could be the same/nearer the neck/nearer the bridge or lost forever

[Prime_BASS]

I no doubt know that it probably won't be the same same as using heavier strings doesn't make your bass sound the same if you was tuning standard with regular strings.

Would I be right in thinking that if I found where the sweetspot is in relation to the nodes or abtinodes and then found the corresponding one on a smaller or larger scale. That would be the equivalent?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1368905230' post='2082936']
Yes they are fitted to db too, the problem is that they will be fighting the tuning of the bass on the speaking length so it looks like a bitch to get right, once bang on with your choice of strings and bridge fitted where you want for overall tone you can measure each string length after the bridge and have a tail carved to that exact shape to remove the need for tuners, you can see why db setups are not for novices!
[/quote]
I don't understand what you are saying.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1368912030' post='2083050']
My OP question in bottle: does the sweetspot move in different scales lengths?
[/quote]
I apologise if you fell your thread was derailed but I also thought you're original question was answered.

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1368912030' post='2083050']
... The sweetspot(which must exist since quiet few people seem to mention such a thing...
[/quote]
... or which doesn't exist because quite a few people say so.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1368939334' post='2083185']
I no doubt know that it probably won't be the same same as using heavier strings doesn't make your bass sound the same if you was tuning standard with regular strings.

Would I be right in thinking that if I found where the sweetspot is in relation to the nodes or abtinodes and then found the corresponding one on a smaller or larger scale. That would be the equivalent?
[/quote]
The nodes and antinodes move everytime you fret a note so they cannot be the cause of a supposed 'sweetspot'.

Insofar as there is such a thing as a 'sweetspot', it is wherever you think the pickup sounds good on a particular bass.

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1368912030' post='2083050']
In my head it would be it would need to be closer to the bridge somewhat?

[/quote]

Leaving the 'is there or isn't there a sweet spot" debate to the side for the moment, and trying to help with your question:

My (probably flawed) logic tells me that, if you're trying to replicate the sweetspot on a shorter scale bass, just scale the entire thing down. So if your sweetspot is, say, 85% towards the bridge on the long scale bass, just position the sweetspot 85% towards the bridge on the short scale bass. In practice then, compared to the long scale, the sweetspot will be slightly closer to the bridge AND the nut.

[XB26354]

One point that has been overlooked is that, although the string length can change from note to note, the distance between the pickup and the bridge is constant, so this imparts a basic character to the tone of the instrument. My interpretation of the sweet spot is a one pickup bass, where placement attempts to take some of the character of a bridge mounted pickup and a neck mounted pickup, but without the phase and interference issues of running two volumes pots or a pan pot. It's not very scientific nor very accurate, but if I had a jazz bass with the neck pickup deactivated the basic tone would have a tighter sound and bias than if the reverse (deactivated the bridge j pickup and left only the neck pickup) were done. The single pickup Stingray has a noticeably more tight and aggressive tone than a Precision bass, taking woods, strings and electronics out of the equation (if that's possible, of course). Similarly a bass with a single pickup right under the fingerboard tends to a more wooly, fat tone, and even plucking right next to bridge, it's hard to get away from that basic character.

[steve-bbb]

[size=5][b]hey dude ... check out the sweet spot dude ... no ... nearer the bridge dude[/b][/size]

Edited May 19, 2013 by steve-bbb

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='XB26354' timestamp='1368956295' post='2083296']
One point that has been overlooked is that, although the string length can change from note to note, the distance between the pickup and the bridge is constant, so this imparts a basic character to the tone of the instrument. My interpretation of the sweet spot is a one pickup bass, where placement attempts to take some of the character of a bridge mounted pickup and a neck mounted pickup, but without the phase and interference issues of running two volumes pots or a pan pot. It's not very scientific nor very accurate, but if I had a jazz bass with the neck pickup deactivated the basic tone would have a tighter sound and bias than if the reverse (deactivated the bridge j pickup and left only the neck pickup) were done. The single pickup Stingray has a noticeably more tight and aggressive tone than a Precision bass, taking woods, strings and electronics out of the equation (if that's possible, of course). Similarly a bass with a single pickup right under the fingerboard tends to a more wooly, fat tone, and even plucking right next to bridge, it's hard to get away from that basic character.
[/quote]
I agree that pickup position will 'impart a basic character to the tone of the instrument', and characterised much as you say and different in different basses with different pickup configurations.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1368956927' post='2083302']
[size=5][b]hey dude ... check out the sweet spot dude ... no ... nearer the bridge dude[/b][/size]


[/quote]
Excellent.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1368954758' post='2083273']

I don't understand what you are saying.
[/quote]
I won't bother trying as it will only derail the thread again!

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1368959024' post='2083337']
I won't bother trying as it will only derail the thread again!
[/quote]
OK it's a deal.

[Prime_BASS]

So if i did want a short scale or longer scale bass with the same sound as a standard scale musicman bass with single pickup, how much furter or closer to the bridge will the pickup have to be?

[Dingus]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1368986573' post='2083718']
So if i did want a short scale or longer scale bass with the same sound as a standard scale musicman bass with single pickup, how much furter or closer to the bridge will the pickup have to be?
[/quote]

The pickup would need to be in the same position relative to the bridge . The scale length is in effect irrelevant .

Edited May 19, 2013 by Dingus

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1368986573' post='2083718']
So if i did want a short scale or longer scale bass with the same sound as a standard scale musicman bass with single pickup, how much furter or closer to the bridge will the pickup have to be?
[/quote]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1368986831' post='2083725']
The pickup would need to be in the same position relative to the bridge . The scale length is in effect irrelevant .
[/quote]

That sounds correct.

For example: a 30" version of a MusicMan can be approximated by tuning your 34" to DGCA and putting a capo at fret two. That is in effect a 30.3" scale length.

But the pickup stays in the same place.

Edited May 19, 2013 by EssentialTension

[mcnach]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1368894707' post='2082789']
So, there's no such thing as a 'sweetspot'.

There's merely different places to put a pickup and each place will be a factor in the overall sound of the bass. An aspect fo the sound of a P bass comes from the position of it's pickup. Same for a J bass, but the pickups are in different palces. And same again for an MM or any other bass. Where you place the pickup makes a difference but the idea of some magical 'sweetspot' - it's nonsense.
[/quote]


+100

I think some people call the Precision pickup spot "THE" sweet spot because they happen to prefer the sound of Precisions, etc.
In truth... like you said, where you place the pickup has a huge effect on what it sounds like, and whether you prefer it in one place or another is down to the individual.
A Jazz or an MM pickup at the Precision spot have a certain "precisiony" quality to the sound, even 'though it won't sound exactly the same. Similarly with other pickups/locations. An MM pickup close by the bridge where a Jazz would be sounds nothing like a Stingray but more like a fat type of Jazz... etc.
My "personal sweetspot" seems to be a wide area around the Stingray single pickup location and a Jazz bridge pickup, as I favoure those positions regardless of the pickup... but it's totally subjective: my own personal taste.

It is intriguing that you get a "type of sound" from a pickup location despite the fact that the length of the string varies as you fret various notes.
The one thing that remains constant is the length between the pickup to the bridge. Maybe that has something to do with it, although I can't think how.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1368939334' post='2083185']
Would I be right in thinking that if I found where the sweetspot is in relation to the nodes or abtinodes and then found the corresponding one on a smaller or larger scale. That would be the equivalent?
[/quote]


the nodes will change as you fret different strings. This is very easily demonstrated by the pinch harmonic technique any decent old school metal guitarist will be only too happy to demonstrate until your ears bleed

Although perhaps the nodes don't move all that much from any particular spot, since the bridge is not so far from the pickups... Hmmm, so maybe there is something to the node positions. When doing pinch harmonics you need to vary slightly where you pluck/touch the string... but yes, it is only a slight change on location. The pickups and their magnetic field covers a wider area... hmmm.

We need a way to visualise a vibrating string, the magnetic field, and how the nodes change position as we fret different notes...

[BassTractor]

Bear in mind there are lots of (anti-)nodes, and during the vibrating of the string, different ones of them will be "active" / "not active" - especially during the attack phases, but not only then.
As a result of this, I can't escape the feeling that some of the discussion above is missing what the alleged sweet spot is about, and is discussing with straw men. Originally, IIRC, it was never said that there's only one sweet spot, but it was said that they found a spot that served a certain purpose very well, and why it did that.

If I find the article I have on it, I'll report exactly what was claimed.


b,
b

[ikay]

I;ve drawn up a couple of graphics showing string vibrations of the first 7 harmonics and some common pickup positions.

The vertical line for each pickup shows how much of each harmonic is being sensed. For example, in the first diagran, a J neck pickup gets a good dose of the first four harmonics but hardly any of the higher harmonics. By contrast, the bridge pickup gets a much more even spread but with less lower harmonics and more higher harmonics.

The first diagram shows vibrations for an open string. The second shows vibrations for a string fretted at the 12th fret. This clearly shows that the mix of harmonics being sensed by the pickup is substantially different for open and fretted notes.

For ref the pickup position measurements are as follows (all measured from nut):

J neck - 27.9"
J bridge (60s) - 31.45"
J bridge (70s) - 31.84"
P bass (centreline) - 28.61 "
Stingray (centreline) - 30.5"

[attachment=135170:string harmonics + pickup position 1.jpg] [attachment=135171:string harmonics + pickup position 2.jpg]

[EMG456]

[quote name='ikay' timestamp='1369079583' post='2084673']
I;ve drawn up a couple of graphics showing string vibrations of the first 7 harmonics and some common pickup positions.

[/quote]

Thanks for putting in the time there - that is extremely informative.

Cheers

Ed