warwickhunt Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I feel this is better suited in here than Off Topic but feel free to move it. I do the live mixing (on stage) for my band (covers) and we've just bought a new (used) Yamaha MG24/14fx desk (cheers Dave). Long story short; I've never in the past had a desk larger than 12 ch and certainly never had to use groups, buses etc. Is there a 'usual' way of using these (manual doesn't really give a layman much idea as there is an expectation you know what these are)? I assume that I'd depress the relevant buttons on the channels that the drums were in and assign them to say Group 1-2. Then possibly assign the vocals (4 of us) to Group 3-4, whilst everything else; keys, acoustics, bass etc weren't allocated to any group. Thus I could turn the drums/vocals all up/down as one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1328978145' post='1535584'] Thus I could turn the drums/vocals all up/down as one? [/quote] Yup, that's the usual idea. How you best group them really depends on how you find yourself adjusting things in the mix. They're often most useful for muting/unmuting in a hurry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 4 groups/faders but only buttons to select from 2 groups; 1-2 or 3-4... strange or am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1328979490' post='1535620'] 4 groups/faders but only buttons to select from 2 groups; 1-2 or 3-4... strange or am I missing something? [/quote] Ah hang on! Do you have to use the pan control to select left for 1 and right for 2 (same for 3-4)? Does it still come out FOH in stereo (or at least dual-mono)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayben Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Presumably because the groups are in stereo, so you can control the group volume on both L and R speakers.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 [quote name='Jayben' timestamp='1328979632' post='1535626'] Presumably because the groups are in stereo, so you can control the group volume on both L and R speakers.. [/quote] see above! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayben Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 What I mean is that the signal is presumably stereo so the signal (obviously) goes to all FOH. Therefore you have 2 slides per stereo group (L+R), controlling the volume of each side of the FOH and the panning is there for creating a better stereo image or whatever.. Does that make sense? o.0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 [quote name='Jayben' timestamp='1328980136' post='1535638'] What I mean is that the signal is presumably stereo so the signal (obviously) goes to all FOH. Therefore you have 2 slides per stereo group (L+R), controlling the volume of each side of the FOH and the panning is there for creating a better stereo image or whatever.. Does that make sense? o.0 [/quote] Yes I agree, you're right and that does make sense but I wondered at first why the pan pot for each channel also had 'odd' + 'even' marked on the extreme left and right of the panning travel. My thinking is that you could if need actually assign a channel to just one of the groups (panning extreme left or right) but then I assume you would get that instrument from just one FOH speaker (I'll know better when I try it properly). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Most ordinary mortals still use mono for FOH, so any pan pots you may have on the subgroups and direct channels are effectively redundant for the purpose of L/R panning FOH. Reason? If you mix in stereo in anything but an enormous venue most people will hear a less than perfect sound balance because they're nearer one speaker than the other - extreme example: pan the lead guitarist hard left... anybody near the right speaker won't hear him (which some would argue is a good thing, but that's another thread ). The best use of groups has already been covered - Drums 1 group; Vox 1 group - possibly 2 depending on precise circumstances; everybody else direct (unless of course you're lucky enough to have a horn section of more than one). Channel pan pots work slightly differently when routing to subgroups, as they tend to be used to send the channel to one or other of the subgroup pair by panning hard left or right as appropriate. Any stereo channels strips you may have will balance the incoming signal (often from a keyboard) via the two faders before sending it on. Pan pots on such channels - especially when sending direct - should be used with great care. Unless you REALLY need that stereo chorus to go FOH, probably best not to use them at all. Got a bit longwinded in the end - sorry about that but if you're planning to use pan pots on that type of live desk it's important you know what they're doing at any given point in the signal chain otherwise you'll get yourself into a heap of trouble very quickly. Edited February 11, 2012 by leftybassman392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Admiral Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Can I suggest a couple of books which might give you answers to this and other questions you may have - I found them invaluable - Well worth £9.26 of your hard earned at Amazon - 'Live sound for the performing musician' by Paul White of SOS Magazine, and in english that anyone can understand: This is a good one too - Yamaha sponsored 'Sound Reinforcement Handbook' by Gary Davis and Ralph Jones - more techy than the Paul White book, but explains some important stuff really well I think. £13.00 at Amazon. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 [quote name='The Admiral' timestamp='1328985949' post='1535766'] Can I suggest a couple of books which might give you answers to this and other questions you may have - I found them invaluable - Well worth £9.26 of your hard earned at Amazon - 'Live sound for the performing musician' by Paul White of SOS Magazine, and in english that anyone can understand: This is a good one too - Yamaha sponsored 'Sound Reinforcement Handbook' by Gary Davis and Ralph Jones - more techy than the Paul White book, but explains some important stuff really well I think. £13.00 at Amazon. A [/quote] Not read the Davis/Jones title, but +1 on Paul White Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike257 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I'll chime in with consensus on the pan pots - hard left/right to assign to groups, and the group pans (and everything else) generally stay in the middle. Too many variables in your typical small club for stereo to work effectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) As above, though you could mix(no pun) between mono and stereo. IE; the Kit can be routed to a pair in stereo and pan the group hard left and right,and then the kit chans can be panned to suit as normal, this can help create a bit of space in a mix. Then you can route bass and gits to one mono sub group and the vocals to the other. One thing to consider when grouping is dynamic treatment, like compression. I often favour a stereo sub group for vocals with a stereo compressor in the group inserts. This can give your vocals an even tightness and help sit BVs in a mix too. This works in mono just as well. Of course, your desk needs to have insert points on the groups for this. Another trick you can use is route the main vox to a group AND the stereo bus as well, it`ll add a db or two If you have a spare chan, use a mic splitter cable and cable the main vox to two chans, use one for FOH and one for the Aux monitor send,the EQ on the 2nd chan can be used to get the best tone for the monitor wedge, leaving the FOH chan EQ for FOH, it also means if there`s any compression on the FOH chan it won`t be heard in the wedge (as some prefer). Edited February 11, 2012 by Monckyman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I used to group things with my AH gl2400 but in the end didn't bother. We were only 5 piece and it was simpler for me to just have everything separate. Simpler is better when mixing and performing at the same time. How hard is it to move say 4 faders for the drums? Those yams are great desks. I use a smaller version in my duo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 [quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1328985052' post='1535747'] Most ordinary mortals still use mono for FOH, so any pan pots you may have on the subgroups and direct channels are effectively redundant for the purpose of L/R panning FOH. Reason? If you mix in stereo in anything but an enormous venue most people will hear a less than perfect sound balance because they're nearer one speaker than the other - extreme example: pan the lead guitarist hard left... anybody near the right speaker won't hear him (which some would argue is a good thing, but that's another thread ). [/quote] In small venues I use the pan to compensate for the fact that anyone right in front of the guitarists amp will have way more guitar in their ears already, so he is panned over to the other side, so the sound is more even across the venue. Same goes for the bass and keys on the other side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Cheers people. I've got my head around uses for the various groups/buses and on most gigs I'm unlikely to use them other than to be able to tweak the level of all of the drums/vocals etc. I now understand though that I can pan a channel full left/right (labelled odd/even) and it'll assign the channel to group 1/2/3/4 depending upon button selection and then I can pan that group in the mix. Really nice desk and will mean that I no longer have to link x2 12 channel desks together. 4 monitor opportunities and 2 effects is a god-send as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 [quote name='The Admiral' timestamp='1328985949' post='1535766'] 'Live sound for the performing musician' by Paul White of SOS Magazine, and in english that anyone can understand: [/quote] Ordered - thanks for the tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1329472599' post='1542882'] In small venues I use the pan to compensate for the fact that anyone right in front of the guitarists amp will have way more guitar in their ears already, so he is panned over to the other side, so the sound is more even across the venue. Same goes for the bass and keys on the other side. [/quote] Makes sense (sort of). It's partly a function of onstage volume vs. monitor levels of course, and as an ex-guitarist I do understand the appeal of having it nice & loud. I've always tried to encourage bands I've worked in or with to turn down a bit and use the monitors more, but it can be tricky if their average age is 17! Edited February 17, 2012 by leftybassman392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1329473296' post='1542896'] Cheers people. I've got my head around uses for the various groups/buses and on most gigs I'm unlikely to use them other than to be able to tweak the level of all of the drums/vocals etc. I now understand though that I can pan a channel full left/right (labelled odd/even) and it'll assign the channel to group 1/2/3/4 depending upon button selection and then I can pan that group in the mix. Really nice desk and will mean that I no longer have to link x2 12 channel desks together. 4 monitor opportunities and 2 effects is a god-send as well. [/quote] I knew you would like it once sussed. Good to see you are pleased with it. My wife was pleased with the cash too Sorry i couldn't help with the operation of it. Takes someone intelligent and that rules me out i guess. Cheers Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1329473296' post='1542896'] I now understand though that I can pan a channel full left/right (labelled odd/even) and it'll assign the channel to group 1/2/3/4 depending upon button selection and then I can pan that group in the mix. Really nice desk and will mean that I no longer have to link x2 12 channel desks together. 4 monitor opportunities and 2 effects is a god-send as well. [/quote] You realise that in three weeks time you will be announcing that you've changed your main gig to be a 3-piece blues band with one vocalist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1329503100' post='1543578'] You realise that in three weeks time you will be announcing that you've changed your main gig to be a 3-piece blues band with one vocalist? [/quote] Fingers crossed it doesn't happen... though it will be overkill for the Cheap Trick tribute I have put together! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1329503374' post='1543590'] Fingers crossed it doesn't happen... though it will be overkill for the Cheap Trick tribute I have put together! [/quote] You'll need all those spare channels for the 12 stringer you'll be using. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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