Cabinet config query

[Fitz666]

Hoping for some guidance folks.

For the first time in my bass career I now have a full rig with a 4x10 and a 1x15.

So which way do you stack them?

The 15 on the top or the bottom?

I have seen setups with both but am not sure on the benefits of each, or the negative effects of them.

Looking forward to your replies.

Cheers

[Lozz196]

Well the industry standard always seems to favour the 115 at the bottom. I suppose this is due to the "higher" frequencies that come from the 410.

I`ve also seen the 410s at the bottom, however this usually seems to happen when the owner has the 410 on castors, so would assume this is their everyday cab, and that only use the 115 at bigger gigs, and that`s the only way they can stack them.

[stingrayPete1977]

Yep 15 on the bottom, as I understand it bass is non directional whereas the higher up the frequency range you go it then is so the bass bin can go on the deck and face in the wrong direction to a certain extent but the 10's will project better into audience and your own lugs the higher you put it. People who then say their brand X 4x10 has as much bottom end as a 15 don't get it because even if your 4x10 can produce a nice low end if it's sat aloft a nice 1x15 you will be running your EQ with less bottom dialed in making your 4x10 naturally produce more mids and highs than it would when you take just the same 4x10 on its own. It's becoming less common overall IMO to have mixed cab sizes which was the norm for years.

[bertbass]

Had a Peavey fire bass with a 4x10 and a single 15 cabs. I stuck the 4x10 on top of the 15 as you do. It was quite a while, a couple of years actually, after I started using it that I noticed that the 4x10 was a lot bassier than the 1x15, infact, it was only after the 15 blew and I replaced the basket, a Black widow, that I noticed the difference while checking the cabs separately.

So which cab to put on top? I'd say don't use different size speakers but that's just my opinion.

[chris_b]

[size=4]Which cab do you want to hear the most? Put that one on top. [/size]

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1322866922' post='1456954']
Well the industry standard always seems to favour the 115 at the bottom. I suppose this is due to the "higher" frequencies that come from the 410.
[/quote]That's the prevailing notion, but it's incorrect. The average 410 goes no higher than the average 115, while the 115 has wider dispersion. For that matter the average 115 goes no lower than the average 410, so there's nothing to be gained by mixing the two. What is pertinent is that the average 410 will handle more power than the average 115, making the 115 the weak link in the chain. For that reason put the 115 on top, so that when it starts to strain you'll hear it, rather than the 410, and know that it's time to turn the amp down.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[stingrayPete1977]

Better tell Flea then Bill........

[stingrayPete1977]

I know you are the expert here Bill but goes higher or lower is a red herring because as I said before if both cabs are of a similar quality running off the same amp hence the same EQ settings then the 15 will be producing more of the lower frequencys than the 4x10 even if that 4x10 could handle more. Also the horn is much more likely to be in the 4x10 if your rig is configured that way. If its so wrong why does every pa system have this config too?

Edited December 3, 2011 by stingrayPete1977

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1322919145' post='1457284']
Better tell Flea then Bill........
[/quote]I looked up Flea in the AES members directory. Oddly enough his name isn't there, so chances are he knows no more about how speakers actually work than anyone else who has not studied acoustical engineering. I've been driving for 45 years, that hardly qualifies me to design an automobile.
[quote]if both cabs are of a similar quality running off the same amp hence the same EQ settings then the 15 will be producing more of the lower frequencys than the 4x10 even if that 4x10 could handle more[/quote]That's only true if the 115 has lower response than the 410. In most cases they don't. And then there's the matter of driver displacement. As one goes lower displacement requirements go higher. The total displacement of the average 115 is 330cc, that of the average 410 500cc. If the 115 were to add anything meaningful it would need considerably higher displacement than the 410, not considerably less.

[stingrayPete1977]

I have never seen anyone stack a 15 above a 4x10 or a 2x10 for that matter, for all the technical reasons you say it's wrong (which I don't doubt) all the gear I have owned and tried it with sounded best the way everyone else has them. I have seen the light and only have 12's anyway so it doesn't really matter which way up I put that

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1322929869' post='1457447']
I looked up Flea in the AES members directory. Oddly enough his name isn't there, so chances are he knows no more about how speakers actually work than anyone else who has not studied acoustical engineering. I've been driving for 45 years, that hardly qualifies me to design an automobile.
[/quote]

He didn't design it though did he? I would imagine the top brass from Gallien Krueger would be happy to drop in and compare penis sizes Bill, No offensive

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1322930982' post='1457467']
He didn't design it though did he? I would imagine the top brass from Gallien Krueger would be happy to drop in and compare penis sizes Bill, No offensive
[/quote]Frankly I've never seen a cab from G-K that indicates they have professional acoustical engineers design their cabs. Eye candy all, IMO. if you want to learn about how cabs should be designed and what really matters beyond looks spend some time on the Barefaced Bass site, it will be time well spent.

[stingrayPete1977]

I'd say that's a bit harsh, always looks a bit naff to diss a rival company too. I can't think of one company that stacks cabs your way in their promo material, surely one of the other manufactures has a clue? Stacking them the other way would surely get us talking and promoting their wares too. I don't need to swat up on the technical stuff as like Flea I'm not a designer, I presume like me his tools for the job are his ears

[stingrayPete1977]

Should Alex be promoting to put the compact above the super twelve then rather under as it is on his homepage? I'd compare the 2x12 to a 4x10.

Edited December 3, 2011 by stingrayPete1977

[Merton]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1322919425' post='1457290']
I know you are the expert here Bill but goes higher or lower is a red herring because as I said before if both cabs are of a similar quality running off the same amp hence the same EQ settings then the 15 will be producing more of the lower frequencys than the 4x10 even if that 4x10 could handle more. Also the horn is much more likely to be in the 4x10 if your rig is configured that way. If its so wrong why does every pa system have this config too?
[/quote]
PA is a different matter as the tops only have the high frequencies and the subs the lows. A bass rig with 4x10 and 1x15 will be running both full range. And why would a 15 produce more lows than a 4x10 with the same EQ settings? That's utter nonsense methinks

Edited December 3, 2011 by Merton

[stingrayPete1977]

Ok does anyone bi amp and put the 15 on top?

If I took my head and left every knob where it is including the volume and put it through the 1x15 on its own then the 4x10 on its own the 1x15 would to the naked ear sound bassier than the 4x10, why do people who are not bi amping add a 1x15? It's not nonsense at all

[Merton]

Does your 4x10 have a tweeter and if so is it on?

[stingrayPete1977]

I still can't see that the average 4x10 goes no higher than a 1x15 either, I know plenty of pro players that would say that was nonsense ,if you asked them to do a nice little hi fi gig with a 1x15 or a 4x10 even without a horn they would take the 4x10 100% of the time.

Testing these things under lab conditions is all well and good but it's the players buying and using the stuff.

Edited December 3, 2011 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Merton' timestamp='1322940761' post='1457622']
Does your 4x10 have a tweeter and if so is it on?
[/quote]

I have used /owned/stolen various makes and model of each and a 1x15 has always been bassier to the ear (not interested about the technical bit) than 4x10 with or without tweeters.

[stingrayPete1977]

Don't make me out to be the only person who disagrees with this, check the 1000's of rigs laid out with the 4x10 on top who's owners have not chimed in for whatever reason.

[Merton]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1322940928' post='1457626']


I have used /owned/stolen various makes and model of each and a 1x15 has always been bassier to the ear (not interested about the technical bit) than 4x10 with or without tweeters.
[/quote]
Not being interested in the technical bit is the problem. You're completely misunderstanding WHY you think the 15 is bassier than the 4x10. Ah well

Edited December 3, 2011 by Merton

[stingrayPete1977]

So everyone that adds a 1x15 to their rig to add bottom end is wrong then because unless its fed from a seperate amp it won't provide any more bottom than the existing 4x10 they had? In fact your saying even if its powered seperatly it can't anyway.

[allighatt0r]

I think Pete is right that often, 115s are bassier than 410s. HOWEVER, I don't think that this is necessarily a reflection of the natural characteristics of these configurations (the stuff Bill is talking about).

The 410 and the 115 for many years have been regarded as the top and bottom, most likely (I'm speculating here) down to using 410s for bass was born out of borrowed guitar cabs, and 115s being born out of borrowed PA subs back in the day. So, because of this, bassists and the musical gear community as a whole have developed the deeply engrained notion and belief that a 410 is "punchy", or "tight" or has better high end, but not quite as much clout in the bottom end, and that 115s are "bassy", "low" or "deeper" without so much definition. Because of this, cab manufacturers have and will continue to cater to these belief.

When they (your average cab manufacturer) make a 410, they tune it to give the sort of sound your average person would expect to hear from a 410, and likewise with a 115 they make it sound like a 115 should sound (again, in the ears of people with the beliefs above).

I've experienced this stuff first hand, when I used to have the combination of a Marshall 410 and a 115, I plugged in at a gig and my sound was way too bassy and just not right at all (with my amp settings as normal). It took me a few minutes of head scratching, but I eventually spotted that my bandmates had put the cabs up with the 115 on top.

Without changing any of the amp settings, I switched the cab positions and all sounded right again. I don't think this is down to the "average" characteristics of either speaker configuration, more that Marshall conform to the notion that 115 should be bassy and 410s should be punchy, so they purposefully make them that way.

So yes, in my opinion the 115 is (as a general rule) bassier than the 410, but this isn't down to the science of cabs, it's down to the predisposition of the buyers and the manufacturers.

[xgsjx]

Aaah, but could that bassier sound be due to the fact that the 4x10 had a more direct coupling with the stage & also if it had a tweeter, that wouldn't have been as close to ear height too?

[stingrayPete1977]

allighator is on my wave length, take the facts and figures of what each cab could handle and just use your ears (that's what counts as the end user) and whether they are tuned that way on purpose or not it's what most (by a massive majority) of us hear, have a scan through the rigs in the porn section and see who has what stacked in what config. Trace and others make a cab with a 1x 15 and 4x 10 all in one, guess where the 15 is? I'm not doubting Bills knowledge but every manufacturer I can find stacks that way with the biggest cabs at the bottom including BareFaceds website, surely one of them has whatever letters is was after their name or are they all wrong, every single one? Mesa, Ashdown, Markbass, GK ,EBS, Marshall, Trace elliot new and old, Laney, Hartke, Barefaced, Peavey the lot.