SELLING ON BC

[skankdelvar]

The problem with the whole 'excellent / not excellent' thing is that it is entirely subjective. The seller may well genuinely think it's an excellent bass, and proceeds to articulate their opinion in their post.

The danger is that the buyer will almost certainly have a different definition of 'excellent'. The same applies to ' a few dings' For example, I saw the latter phrase applied to a Gretsch 6128 Pro Jet which looked as if someone had taken a huge, blunt chisel to the lower bout. Basically, anything beyond a bald description invites disaster.

Perhaps we should follow the example of the advertising community and use words which, though 'golden', are actually quite meaningless. e.g:

"Here is an [font="Arial Black"]exciting opportunity [/font]to take delivery of a previously [font="Arial Black"]cherished[/font] bass guitar by Sue Ryder, one of the UK's [font="Arial Black"]leading [/font]charity guitar purveyors. The body is made from 100% [font="Arial Black"]naturally-occurring [/font]tree-wood. A [font="Arial Black"]vibrant[/font] blue [font="Arial Black"]livery [/font]complements its [font="Arial Black"]full, creamy, wholesome tone[/font]. PM offers, etc"


All legally unchallengeable.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1192855' date='Apr 8 2011, 01:38 PM']"Here is an [font="Arial Black"]exciting opportunity [/font]to take delivery of a previously [font="Arial Black"]cherished[/font] bass guitar by Sue Ryder, one of the UK's [font="Arial Black"]leading [/font]charity guitar purveyors. The body is made from 100% [font="Arial Black"]naturally-occurring [/font]tree-wood. A [font="Arial Black"]vibrant[/font] blue [font="Arial Black"]livery [/font]complements its [font="Arial Black"]full, creamy, wholesome tone[/font]. PM offers, etc"

All legally unchallengeable.[/quote]

You didn't manage any kind of marketing for Keydata, per chance?

This is why I think pics are essential - and, just as with the words, honesty is essential.

[Muzz]

[quote name='dougie' post='1192465' date='Apr 8 2011, 12:42 AM']IMO,if i ask £1k for a pair of my skidmarked y fronts thats my prerogative,wether anyone wants to pay that amount is theirs....isnt that the way selling/buying has always worked?,last thing i`d imagine is any mods/admins wanting to even get involved in anyones debates regarding cash sales.[/quote]

Well, y'see, that's where it's a bit complicated on here, because as a community of sometimes heated (and therefore moderated) discussion on most things, I don't have the perogative to say on your post "Feck me, a grand for those y-fronts? Why? Are you the new Jaco?", which, if you were selling them in lots of other places (like a shop, for instance) I would.

[urb]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1188072' date='Apr 4 2011, 06:17 PM']Every buyer I have dealt with bought and paid for the gear in one sitting, every trade I have made went smoothly, every bit of gear I bought without seeing has been as described and was sent as soon as payment was made (or even before)

Must be lucky[/quote]

Same here - I've only sold amps and pedals and bought similar stuff and all has been fine - I've pretty much always used Paypal and every deal has been straightforward.

I will add that personally speaking, if I'm browsing here, or any web shopping site, I now always take a more measured, less impulsive, look at things and so am less prone to making offers I can't actually make good on - I think that kind of thing is not cool and not a good way to make friends around here. Take your time, sleep on your 'I simply have to have yet another bass/pedal/amp' impulses and only make serious offers, it saves everyone a lot of time and energy.

[Tait]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1192507' date='Apr 8 2011, 04:30 AM']But is it? I think what we are discussing here is the disparity between the two.

The price is the thing that most of us agree is up to the seller to set - delusional or otherwise it is their right. The value is the figure that the majority (hopefully including the seller if they have their feet firmly planted on terra firma) has in their head.[/quote]

See, I disagree with this. I'd say my Taitycaster or my Ibanez are more valuable to me than they are to you. My Taitycaster is a custom, unique to me, and I've had my Ibanez pretty much since I started playing. But you don't care about that, all you see is one custom bass and one slightly worn Ibanez. Now, I'm not saying that I should ask for more because of this, because it isn't worth more. I'm simply questioning the difference between value and price.

[andy67]

[quote name='Tait' post='1193827' date='Apr 9 2011, 03:11 PM']See, I disagree with this. I'd say my Taitycaster or my Ibanez are more valuable to me than they are to you. My Taitycaster is a custom, unique to me, and I've had my Ibanez pretty much since I started playing. But you don't care about that, all you see is one custom bass and one slightly worn Ibanez. Now, I'm not saying that I should ask for more because of this, because it isn't worth more. I'm simply questioning the difference between value and price.[/quote]

See the thing is, you are talking personal value of which should mean, to you, you would keep it. I recently owned a Fender Mexican 50's Precision, cost £519, it is a mass produced piece and as much as I loved it and valued it dearly it was only worth £400 to the buyer. The cheapest I have seen them sold on here is £350. So, for me, that is now a reference point £350 - £400. Reality or worth to a buyer is totally different to worth/value as an owner. Because someone owns a bass and to them it is worth a lot in terms of sentimental and useable value, it is not worth this to a buyer who will be buying it as an independent piece.

People can put whatever value they like on an instrument or piece of bass equipment or any other thing for that matter but ... it will only be worth what it is sold for, naturally! Most people I have sold, traded or even just communicated with know there stuff and have researched the market place in order to get a grip on new and second hand prices, therefore, I would not insult them by putting unrealistic prices on any of my gear no matter the personal value or sentiment.

andy

Edited April 9, 2011 by andy67

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Tait' post='1193827' date='Apr 9 2011, 03:11 PM']See, I disagree with this. I'd say my Taitycaster or my Ibanez are more valuable to me than they are to you. My Taitycaster is a custom, unique to me, and I've had my Ibanez pretty much since I started playing. But you don't care about that, all you see is one custom bass and one slightly worn Ibanez. Now, I'm not saying that I should ask for more because of this, because it isn't worth more. I'm simply questioning the difference between value and price.[/quote]
That's just plain semantics bud. Sentimental value and market value are two entirely different things.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1194018' date='Apr 9 2011, 07:44 PM']That's just plain semantics bud. Sentimental value and market value are two entirely different things.[/quote]

Disagreed.

If someone sold their cherished bass in a moment of madness or need of money then saw an opportunity to buy it back at an inflated price, then they might be prepared to spend over the odds for it. Same situation but reversed, does that mean it's value is over what it would usually sell for? What about if it was McCartney's original violin bass, would you expect that to be valued the same as any other of the same model, however similar? I know I wouldn't pay more for it than I would any other (and I don't like them anyway, so I wouldn't pay much for one in the first place) so because me (and many others I expect) feel that way, does that mean it's not valued at more than another of the same type?

When you buy or sell an instrument, you make a choice. What would you rather have, X bass or Y amount of money? The price a bass sells for is when the price is a compromise between the buyer and seller's individual Y. I'd rather have my Ibanez BTB than the amount of money it would sell for, that's because to me it's more valuable than the £250 or so I might get for it. That's how I value it, so it's it's value is over £250 however you look at it because someone (me) would rather have that bass than £250.

When you're buying or selling, you don't just look at the model, there's all kinds of things that factor into the bass. It's never as simple as looking at the last one similar that sold. You can look at average values of instruments that have sold and use that as a guideline but it's only an average of figures, not a black and white figure of how much they should sell for. Since market value is a rough estimation of the average, it doesn't take into account the individual values of each instrument, which are affected by sentimental feelings.

Edited April 9, 2011 by ThomBassmonkey

[munkonthehill]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194151' date='Apr 9 2011, 11:21 PM']Disagreed.

If someone sold their cherished bass in a moment of madness or need of money then saw an opportunity to buy it back at an inflated price, then they might be prepared to spend over the odds for it. Same situation but reversed, does that mean it's value is over what it would usually sell for? What about if it was McCartney's original violin bass, would you expect that to be valued the same as any other of the same model, however similar? I know I wouldn't pay more for it than I would any other (and I don't like them anyway, so I wouldn't pay much for one in the first place) so because me (and many others I expect) feel that way, does that mean it's not valued at more than another of the same type?

When you buy or sell an instrument, you make a choice. What would you rather have, X bass or Y amount of money? The price a bass sells for is when the price is a compromise between the buyer and seller's individual Y. I'd rather have my Ibanez BTB than the amount of money it would sell for, that's because to me it's more valuable than the £250 or so I might get for it. That's how I value it, so it's it's value is over £250 however you look at it because someone (me) would rather have that bass than £250.

When you're buying or selling, you don't just look at the model, there's all kinds of things that factor into the bass. It's never as simple as looking at the last one similar that sold. You can look at average values of instruments that have sold and use that as a guideline but it's only an average of figures, not a black and white figure of how much they should sell for. Since market value is a rough estimation of the average, it doesn't take into account the individual values of each instrument, which are affected by sentimental feelings.[/quote]

So to answer the question,,, someones personal feeling on THEIR bass that THEY are selling shouldnt inflate THEIR selling price of the bass. This is because me as a buyer doesnt give 2 fecks about how they got it or what it means to them!!!!!!!!

However if said bass is then back up for sale.......then sure the original owner may buy it at a higher rate because THEY have a connection to the bass....

But to any other potential buyer it will just be a bass and it will be an unsold bass if the seller is stupid enough to inflate the price due to sentimental feelings.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='munkonthehill' post='1194160' date='Apr 9 2011, 11:31 PM']So to answer the question,,, someones personal feeling on THEIR bass that THEY are selling shouldnt inflate THEIR selling price of the bass.[/quote]

Why not?

So what if it doesn't sell? Like I said, the value of an instrument is the point where someone would rather have the bass than that amount of money. It shouldn't matter if it's the seller or a potential buyer, someone's still making the choice to walk away with the bass instead of the cash.

[munkonthehill]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194163' date='Apr 9 2011, 11:35 PM']Why not?

So what if it doesn't sell? Like I said, the value of an instrument is the point where someone would rather have the bass than that amount of money. It shouldn't matter if it's the seller or a potential buyer, someone's still making the choice to walk away with the bass instead of the cash.[/quote]

No your right I guess. If someone is daft enough to pay over the odds just because some plum has upped the price because its the bass they bought after their first touch of a booby, then hell mend them.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194151' date='Apr 9 2011, 11:21 PM']Disagreed.[/quote]
You say you disagree but....

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194151' date='Apr 9 2011, 11:21 PM']If someone sold their cherished bass in a moment of madness or need of money then saw an opportunity to buy it back at an inflated price, then they might be prepared to spend [b]over the odds[/b] for it. Same situation but reversed, does that mean it's value is over what it would usually sell for? What about if it was McCartney's original violin bass, would you expect that to be valued the same as any other of the same model, however similar? I know I wouldn't pay more for it than I would any other (and I don't like them anyway, so I wouldn't pay much for one in the first place) so because me (and many others I expect) feel that way, does that mean it's not valued at more than another of the same type?[/quote]
When you say over the odds, do you mean over the market value?
McCartney's bass is worth more than other identical basses because it was owned by a famous person - whether [b]he[/b] thinks it or not - no sentimentality there.

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194151' date='Apr 9 2011, 11:21 PM']When you buy or sell an instrument, you make a choice. What would you rather have, X bass or Y amount of money? The price a bass sells for is when the price is a compromise between the buyer and seller's individual Y. I'd rather have my Ibanez BTB than the amount of money it would sell for, that's because to me it's more valuable than the £250 or so I might get for it. That's how I value it, so it's it's value is over £250 however you look at it because someone (me) would rather have that bass than £250.[/quote]
You value your bass way over £250 because you want to, while the rest of the world values it at £250 because that's it's current market value, yes?
Therefore, I refer you to the post you apparently disagree with.

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194151' date='Apr 9 2011, 11:21 PM']When you're buying or selling, you don't just look at the model, there's all kinds of things that factor into the bass.[/quote]
Like it was owned by someone famous?

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194151' date='Apr 9 2011, 11:21 PM']It's never as simple as looking at the last one similar that sold. You can look at average values of instruments that have sold and use that as a guideline but it's only an average of figures, not a black and white figure of how much they should sell for. Since market value is a rough estimation of the average, it doesn't take into account the individual values of each instrument, which are affected by sentimental feelings.[/quote]
No one said it was black and white... but one person's sentiments will not affect the market value.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Ou7shined

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='munkonthehill' post='1194172' date='Apr 9 2011, 11:44 PM']No your right I guess. If someone is daft enough to pay over the odds just because some plum has upped the price because its the bass they bought after their first touch of a booby, then hell mend them.[/quote]
You paint a pretty picture Steve.

[dougie]

[quote name='Muzz' post='1192928' date='Apr 8 2011, 02:57 PM']Well, y'see, that's where it's a bit complicated on here, because as a community of sometimes heated (and therefore moderated) discussion on most things, I don't have the perogative to say on your post "Feck me, a grand for those y-fronts? Why? Are you the new Jaco?", which, if you were selling them in lots of other places (like a shop, for instance) I would.[/quote]
It wouldnt offend me,nor would i expect you too pay a grand without making sure they felt right,were the right weight,and that the skidmarks are actually 1970s vintage instead of fake roadworn efforts.....

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1194179' date='Apr 9 2011, 11:52 PM']No one said it was black and white... but one person's sentiments will not affect the market value.[/quote]

When I say over the odds, I mean more than the average value for that model of bass. If you think of market value as the average, then sure. That doesn't make it a guideline figure for how much a bass should sell for though. I usually think of market value as more relevant for stuff that does have a more black and white figure though, like food by weight, petrol, that kind of thing.

It doesn't matter if one person or 50% of people in the world value a bass as more than it's worth, as long as someone's prepared to take the bass rather than the money, that's it's value. If someone wanted to pay £500 for my Ibanez and I decided to sell, even though that's what it cost new, if someone was prepared to pay that, that's it's value, right?

If one person's sentiments won't affect the market value or a bass, why would it matter if someone famous has owned it? Surely that'd be the sentiments of the people involved that would drive up it's value, it's not anything that affects the quality of the instrument. Also why do you see such wide price ranges on some basses? 'Ray 5s for example seem to have asking prices from £600-900, why aren't they all priced similarly if they're all the same bass.

Edited April 10, 2011 by ThomBassmonkey

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194302' date='Apr 10 2011, 08:55 AM']When I say over the odds, I mean more than the average value for that model of bass. If you think of market value as the average, then sure. That doesn't make it a guideline figure for how much a bass should sell for though. I usually think of market value as more relevant for stuff that does have a more black and white figure though, like food by weight, petrol, that kind of thing.[/quote]
How would you gauge the second hand value of food or petrol then? I'm sorry mate but your analogies stink.
The average price paid for 2nd hand items is the very definition of current market value.

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194302' date='Apr 10 2011, 08:55 AM']It doesn't matter if one person or 50% of people in the world value a bass as more than it's worth, as long as someone's prepared to take the bass rather than the money, that's it's value. If someone wanted to pay £500 for my Ibanez and I decided to sell, even though that's what it cost new, if someone was prepared to pay that, [b]that's it's value, right? [/b].[/quote]
So no.

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194302' date='Apr 10 2011, 08:55 AM']If one person's sentiments won't affect the market value or a bass, why would it matter if someone famous has owned it? Surely that'd be the sentiments of the people involved that would drive up it's value, it's not anything that affects the quality of the instrument. Also why do you see such wide price ranges on some basses? 'Ray 5s for example seem to have asking prices from £600-900, why aren't they all priced similarly if they're all the same bass. [/quote]
It's nothing to do with sentiment, it's to do with rarity and desirability driving up the value.
The only sentimental value in this scenario is what the famous person themselves puts on it, which may or may not be over and above the market value - you touched on this yourself earlier.

The current market value of a 2nd hand SR5 (to use your example) is £600-900 [b]depending on condition, desirability, urgency of sale etc. etc. etc.[/b].

Edited April 10, 2011 by Ou7shined

[ThomBassmonkey]

There is no second hand price for food or petrol generally, that's why it has a firmer value. The average price of second hand stuff might be [b]A[/b] market value, but it doesn't mean that every item should be sold for that price.

There is nothing rare or desirable about macca's bass (apart from it's age, at least as far as I can remember). It's worth so much simply because of people's emotions (read: sentiments ) attached to his music and him. If someone looked at it and didn't know it was his, it would be just another bass and worth a fraction of it's actual value.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194321' date='Apr 10 2011, 09:28 AM']There is no second hand price for food or petrol generally, that's why it has a firmer value. The average price of second hand stuff might be [b]A[/b] market value, but it doesn't mean that every item should be sold for that price.[/quote]Now you're starting to get it.

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194321' date='Apr 10 2011, 09:28 AM']There is nothing rare or desirable about macca's bass (apart from it's age, at least as far as I can remember). It's worth so much simply because of people's emotions (read: sentiments ) attached to his music and him. If someone looked at it and didn't know it was his, it would be just another bass and worth a fraction of it's actual value.[/quote]I don't know how to continue this discusssion if you think that a bass owned by one of the most famous bass players in the entire history of bass isn't rare.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1194326' date='Apr 10 2011, 09:35 AM']Now you're starting to get it.

I don't know how to continue this discusssion if you think that a bass owned by one of the most famous bass players in the entire history of bass isn't rare. [/quote]

I'm still saying the same thing I was a few posts ago. I don't think we're likely to agree anyway because I don't like the idea of solid value on 2nd hand instruments, there's no two the same. Even if two basses were made back to back out of the factory, as soon as one has a ding their values are different. One could end up with a millionaire who thought it looked nice then got bored and gave it away, making it's value £0 and the next could be bought by someone just starting out and become his main player for half his career making it much more valuable to him.

The bass isn't rare, it's history is, there's probably hundreds/thousands of surviving identical instruments. That's my point, it's not specifically the bass that adds to it's value, it's it's history, the same as other peoples' instruments to them. If no one cared about macca (which is purely subjective to the individual based on sentiment) then it'd be worth the same as every other bass of the same model and similar age. So obviously in that case, sentiment does count towards the value of an instrument.

I stand by my statement that an individual instrument's value is the maximum amount of money that someone (doesn't matter if it's one person or everyone apart from that one person) would rather take the bass than the money. Things like market values are just averages, you can't apply them to individual instruments.

[martin8708]

Getting back to the original thread, I have bought and sold basses , amps and pedals on basschat with very few problems , and generally had better success than selling on e-bay . There will always be ''window -shoppers '' who want your items and will ask for pictures + information with no real intention of buying them , but this is part of retail life .
If you oblige these people with friendly and civil replies , they may turn into a real customer .
If you jump down their throat and call them a timewaster , you will never see their money .
If you wish to sell , YOU NEED THE CUSTOMER , The customer does not need you .

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194302' date='Apr 10 2011, 08:55 AM']If someone wanted to pay £500 for my Ibanez and I decided to sell, even though that's what it cost new, if someone was prepared to pay that, [b]that's it's value, right? [/b]

Also why do you see such wide price ranges on some basses? 'Ray 5s for example seem to have asking prices from £600-900, why aren't they all priced similarly if they're all the same bass. [/quote]

Thats [b]its[/b] value not the [i]market[/i] value, If you had 10 the same would you be able to find 10 buyers at £500? Probably not. (I dont know the value of that bass so im using made up prices) If the other 9 sold for £350 that would be the market price IMO.


As for random prices this is nothing to do with it, In my example above I clearly know little of Ibanez basses from a Soundgear from the 90's to a top of the range one I couldnt even guess at prices. Unless your 100% familiar with all the values, specs and rarity etc of every make/model the market place will always appear odd. I could show two people a Sterling Ray 34 and a pre EB Ray both used and they might be surprised to find there is a range from £400-£2200 for essentially the same bass for example. There is a thread about Yamaha's lacking desirability and part of the problem is they are hard to tell apart with awkward model numbers etc, Many people have no idea what standard of instrument the Nathan East Sig bass is compared to an entry level BB with a £2000+ difference in price only the learned will understand why its that much money.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194332' date='Apr 10 2011, 10:00 AM']I stand by my statement that an individual instrument's value is the maximum amount of money that someone (doesn't matter if it's one person or everyone apart from that one person) would rather take the bass than the money. Things like market values are just averages, you can't apply them to individual instruments. [/quote]

Only you are! [b]Its[/b] value and the [b]market[/b] value are not the same thing.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194332' date='Apr 10 2011, 10:00 AM']The bass isn't rare, it's history is, there's probably hundreds/thousands of surviving identical instruments. That's my point, it's not specifically the bass that adds to it's value, it's it's history, the same as other peoples' instruments to them. If no one cared about macca (which is purely subjective to the individual based on sentiment) then it'd be worth the same as every other bass of the same model and similar age. So obviously in that case, sentiment does count towards the value of an instrument.[/quote]
I'll let someone else bash their head against your wall on this silly point.

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1194332' date='Apr 10 2011, 10:00 AM']I stand by my statement that an individual instrument's value is the maximum amount of money that someone (doesn't matter if it's one person or everyone apart from that one person) would rather take the bass than the money. Things like market values are just averages, you can't apply them to individual instruments. [/quote]
Your argument is fundamentally flawed as you are confusing the instruments value with the price paid for it the last time it was sold.
Say you sell your Ibby to Tim Nice-But-Dim for £1000000 (You would wouldn't you? ) your argument states that that bass is now "valued" at one million pounds (I hope Tim doesn't try taking it to an appraisers and see what they say ) then Tim goes bankrupt and the bass is sold at auction for 50 quid, your argument now states that bass is now worth £50. If that lucky person who bought it for 50 quid then came on here to say "look what I got for £50" they would be inundated with replies of "bloody hell what a bargain That bass is worth £250"
Get the picture?

Edited April 10, 2011 by Ou7shined

[munkonthehill]

Being in Scotland I find the usual question of 'can you post'.

Now that is a really fair question. However when folk ask that question and then you say no BUT I could travel a considerable distance to make the deal go through......

Then they dont have the decency to say whether or not they are interested!!!!!!!

How about I tell them no, you can drive north of the border... Im sure I will still get the same response and no sale!!!

[ThomBassmonkey]

Pete, I wasn't talking about something's market value, I've been specifically avoiding mentioning those two words as much as possible as, as good as they're a rough guideline for the price of a 2nd hand instrument, you can't rely on them for anything other than a very rough guestimate of what someone will be willing to buy/sell a bass for.

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1194362' date='Apr 10 2011, 10:31 AM']Get the picture?[/quote]

Ok, so what your saying is that a bass isn't worth what someone's willing to pay for it, it's worth a pre-defined price. I'm not saying it's worth the price of last time it was sold, I'm saying it's worth up to the money that someone (anyone) would be willing to part with it for. Regardless of model, if person A has a bass that they won't sell for less than £500, then it's worth £500. If person B wants to buy it for £600, then it's worth £600. If someone wouldn't sell it to Tim for £1000000, then it's worth over that.

I think we're just arguing over the difference between market value and individual instrument value, but I have said that I'm not talking about market value as that is an average price that doesn't take into account sentimentality.

Remember, how someone values a bass is totally individual to the person, whether buying or selling. What they base that value on, whether it's because it was their first steady bass or they're prepared to pay a bit more for one with a maple freboard is totally individual.

Anyone, I'm gonna duck out because I don't think we're going to agree and I can't see it going anywhere.

Edited April 10, 2011 by ThomBassmonkey