stingrayPete1977 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) I was just browsing ebay for pre EB's which strangley I havent done for a while so maybe Im slowly getting better? Firstly some of the examples some of us were looking at a while ago for rough valuations now appear to have some major issues [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Musicman-Stingray-Fretless-Bass-1976-RARE-/280625826005?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item41569a48d5"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Musicman-Stingray-Fr...=item41569a48d5[/url] New [b]fret board and pre amp[/b], I nearly had a bid on it anyway until I read it again! Its been knocking around for a while getting cheaper and cheaper which I had put down to it being fretless rather than un original. Now this one, [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-1977-Musicman-Stingray-bass-pre-Ernie-Ball-rare-/250770130371?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item3a631085c3"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-1977-Musicma...=item3a631085c3[/url] which to be fair is priced accordingly I guess but when questioned at the bottom they said the EQ was on a green PCB stamped SR4 2EQ and all looked to be original! WTF these people are meant to be specialists FFS a green pcb in 1977? This is the same shop I think that told EBS_Freak that pre EB's had to be before 1980 they were 100% certain......Errr No. At least the fact that its had frets added and the extra pup route behind the guard have been declared which really does leave this example with lets say some issues but like I said its £850 not £1850 I guess. I know some folk on here think I have an axe to grind and that the top prices some of us are paying for pre EB's is too much but the more rough ones I see just confirms that I made the right choice and those on here who have nice ones tucked away (You know who you are ) should think carefully before giving them away on comparisons to what we have seen recently. I know we had one sold recently via our FS section with similar issues but thats not for me to comment on just another example that springs to mind. Rant over but buy/sell carefully all that glitters is not gold, Some times its a sanded down body with an extra pup route, New modern preamp, Frets added to a fretless neck or a fretted neck with a new fretless fingerboard then covered in gold! Edited February 13, 2011 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Reading the description of that one it is a little bit reminiscent of the antique axe story. This is my great great grandfathers axe. It is an antique. It has only had three new heads and four new handles... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1124883' date='Feb 12 2011, 12:45 PM']Reading the description of that one it is a little bit reminiscent of the antique axe story. This is my great great grandfathers axe. It is an antique. It has only had three new heads and four new handles...[/quote] Exactly so me paying litterally a couple of hundred quid more for a minter all original isnt looking so daft! The lack of knowledge from Denmark street leaves the worst taste for me though where/who are we meant to go to for a knowledgeable service? I know its hard to be an expert on every make and model of instrument but a green pcb in 77' Really thats basic stuff surely? Maybe someone is manning the ebay questions that shouldnt I dont know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cd_david Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I think you are spot on Pete. Unfortunately we are at the point Fenders got about 30 years ago ([u]about[/u] 30 years after prod started) and people seem to get a touch blinded by the Pre EB dates and will almost hysterically part with cash in the hyped frenzy to own a "classic bass that will only go up in value" But like people have found out with Fenders, Its only the completely original instruments that will be worth their value to a collector. ANY mods will seriously devalue it (obviously subjective). However if the mods are what you are looking for and the price is right its a great buy for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigster Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Pete, I know it's not Pre-EB, but I have tracked down an 86 MM which condition wise looks amazing and it's around the £1200 mark - does that seem..I hesitate to use the word reasonable when you consider what these things cost at source to make...but is it realistic in the current market? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1124888' date='Feb 12 2011, 12:50 PM']Exactly so me paying litterally a couple of hundred quid more for a minter all original isnt looking so daft![/quote] Absolutely not! If you're after a mint example then you have to pay 'mint' prices. [quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1124888' date='Feb 12 2011, 12:50 PM']The lack of knowledge from Denmark street leaves the worst taste for me though where/who are we meant to go to for a knowledgeable service?[/quote] I always stick to a few basic 'rules' when I'm considering a major purchase. 1) Don't trust a salesman - they're there to make a sale and any advice they give will be biased towards what they want you to buy. 2) Come up with a set of requirements - essentially a list of features you want. 3) Research the market - what products match your requirements? 4) Research the manufacturer - what provenance do they have? What's their service like? How do other users rate their products? 5) Research the risks - are there fakes about? If so, how do I spot them? I managed a £1M budget to move a datacentre using those same criteria, delivered more than what was originally expected and still had £10K left over. [quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1124888' date='Feb 12 2011, 12:50 PM']I know its hard to be an expert on every make and model of instrument but a green pcb in 77' Really thats basic stuff surely? Maybe someone is manning the ebay questions that shouldnt I dont know.[/quote] Yes that is a bit of a farce - bit like buying the Mona Lisa and then noticing she's wearing a digital watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='Jigster' post='1124913' date='Feb 12 2011, 01:08 PM']Pete, I know it's not Pre-EB, but I have tracked down an 86 MM which condition wise looks amazing and it's around the £1200 mark - does that seem..I hesitate to use the word reasonable when you consider what these things cost at source to make...but is it realistic in the current market?[/quote] You know what Im totally confudled with the prices of Rays right now! If its mint I dont see that as an unfair price although we have seen pre EB's for £1300 recently but how good were they? There is certainly a little shift in value for the late 80's to early 90's ones that didnt exist a year or so ago maybe being hauled up with pre EB values like 70's fenders are with pre CBS? The main thing I have realised is that if its really nice and you can afford it then paying slightly over the odds for something in the long run isnt the end of the world and as prices increase for nice examples I think it will be a few extra quid well spent. Hell I have spent £3-400 on car servicing and things so If I cant spend a bit on basses whats the point in working for a living? Ou7shined and Musicman20 are worthy of the question too Jigster if they are out there.........? Can we see pics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1124931' date='Feb 12 2011, 01:24 PM']Yes that is a bit of a farce - bit like buying the Mona Lisa and then noticing she's wearing a digital watch. [/quote] Brilliant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='cd_david' post='1124906' date='Feb 12 2011, 01:05 PM']I think you are spot on Pete. Unfortunately we are at the point Fenders got about 30 years ago ([u]about[/u] 30 years after prod started) and people seem to get a touch blinded by the Pre EB dates and will almost hysterically part with cash in the hyped frenzy to own a "classic bass that will only go up in value" But like people have found out with Fenders, Its only the completely original instruments that will be worth their value to a collector. ANY mods will seriously devalue it (obviously subjective). However if the mods are what you are looking for and the price is right its a great buy for you.[/quote] The one thing I think is different with the pre EB situation compared to pre CBS is the fact that the models are quite different mainly the slab body where to me the P bass didnt change as much during the transition. The MM has a much clearer line in the sand. I dont mind mods (I would never touch my pre EB with tools other than for maintainence though) and Denmark street clearly state them but the advice that the preamp is original seams awful to me. The fretless in the other link has been about for ages though and I guess it was the binding that gave the game away to the none original FB. The irony is that the one in Denmark street was fretless and had frets added and the other may of been fretted at some stage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cd_david Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1124975' date='Feb 12 2011, 02:16 PM']The one thing I think is different with the pre EB situation compared to pre CBS is the fact that the models are quite different mainly the slab body where to me the P bass didnt change as much during the transition. The MM has a much clearer line in the sand. I dont mind mods (I would never touch my pre EB with tools other than for maintainence though) and Denmark street clearly state them but the advice that the preamp is original seams awful to me. The fretless in the other link has been about for ages though and I guess it was the binding that gave the game away to the none original FB. The irony is that the one in Denmark street was fretless and had frets added and the other may of been fretted at some stage![/quote] Yeah sorry Pete, I didn't elaborate very well. I just recall the same thing with fenders that had been attacked/modded and people trying to sell the at top prices. At least that seems to have settled a bit into 2 separate markets and price brackets for original and modded with people knowing where they are at. I like you wouldn't touch a modded instrument unless it was something i could restore easily. And I know what you mean about stores, I have been at the end of some spiel about this or that made up fact to justify the price of an item, I dont know whats worse, someone who thinks youre mug enough to believe it or them believing it and pcb on a 77 is beyond belief though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 I havent even quized them about it via Ebay, Do you think I should just to see what crap they come back with or to see if they ask someone to check it again? The fact they say its a green pcb and quote a part number suggests someone with the authority to mess there has looked and given that response though. Its a tricky price too because whats worth anything on it? Pre amp has been changed, Neck has frets added, Body has an extra route, Pickup is a Basslines one. The string tree is missing, So really its only the Pick guard, tuners and bridge (which even has the thumb turns missing) of any value from what I can see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='Jigster' post='1124913' date='Feb 12 2011, 01:08 PM']Pete, I know it's not Pre-EB, but I have tracked down an 86 MM which condition wise looks amazing and it's around the £1200 mark - does that seem..I hesitate to use the word reasonable when you consider what these things cost at source to make...but is it realistic in the current market?[/quote] There is one at the top of the FS section at the moment too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obbm Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 All this talk of preEBs has made me get mine out and play it. Mmmmm nice. I know what I'm taking to the Jam on Monday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='obbm' post='1125108' date='Feb 12 2011, 04:38 PM']All this talk of preEBs has made me get mine out and play it. Mmmmm nice. I know what I'm taking to the Jam on Monday.[/quote] Well I did say you know who you are I bloomin love mine! Enjoy it OBBM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martthebass Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1125012' date='Feb 12 2011, 03:08 PM']I havent even quized them about it via Ebay, Do you think I should just to see what crap they come back with or to see if they ask someone to check it again? The fact they say its a green pcb and quote a part number suggests someone with the authority to mess there has looked and given that response though. Its a tricky price too because whats worth anything on it? Pre amp has been changed, Neck has frets added, Body has an extra route, Pickup is a Basslines one. The string tree is missing, So really its only the Pick guard, tuners and bridge (which even has the thumb turns missing) of any value from what I can see.[/quote] I keep toting with the idea of selling off a couple of basses (not the 30th this time tho Pete!) and picking up a decent pre eb but this sort of thing (and the minefield I went thru last year when looking for a nice old mid 70s Jazz) puts me off. Think I'll just stick with my 2006 pre-eb 'copy'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='martthebass' post='1125147' date='Feb 12 2011, 05:01 PM']I keep toting with the idea of selling off a couple of basses (not the 30th this time tho Pete!) and picking up a decent pre eb but this sort of thing (and the minefield I went thru last year when looking for a nice old mid 70s Jazz) puts me off. Think I'll just stick with my 2006 pre-eb 'copy'.[/quote] I do know what you mean though Mart its been a long time since something very tidy has cropped up that looked 100% original. And the idea of popping to the States to bring one back for tupence doesnt wash anymore, they appreciate a nice pre EB just the same and the values are set accordingly. You could seriously spend a year researching and trying them as and when they rarely come up for sale, I am starting to realise how lucky I was to get it when I did and with only a few weeks of serious looking. I knocked a few back as they seamed a little rich at the time but now I have seen how hard it is to get a spot on version I can see why those prices were being asked and to be honest if I ever moved mine on it would probably be either a trade or through what appears to be a sort of underground sales between people who know whats what. All joking apart your 30th a 20th and a late 80's Ray would be in my cupboard if the funds allowed 3 Rays is not too bad though for now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) Im changing my Avatar back to the pre in Honour of its awesomeness! Edited February 12, 2011 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 MY preEB bass is made up of parts from late 77 and early 78 basses only because I got incredibly lucky with getting an equally mojo'd 77 body on Ebay. The instrument in total cost me 800 quid. All the parts are authentic and accurate for the period. Could I sell it for 1800 quid? No idea and I'm in no hurry to find out. I'm pretty sure a shop would sell it on for that though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 I guess they would Kiwi and I have no problem with a bitsa being full price if all the bits are correct and in good condition as they are all bolt on components anyway, The ones in my link are bitsa stuff that has further issues other than not belonging to each other 30 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny-79 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1124883' date='Feb 12 2011, 12:45 PM']Reading the description of that one it is a little bit reminiscent of the antique axe story. This is my great great grandfathers axe. It is an antique. It has only had three new heads and four new handles...[/quote] Think that about sums it up, Its a shame really cause from the photos it looked quite nice, never mind though hay ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 [quote name='danny-79' post='1125592' date='Feb 13 2011, 12:40 AM']Think that about sums it up, Its a shame really cause from the photos it looked quite nice, never mind though hay ! [/quote] I see the fretless has ended at over a grand which just shows where the good ones are heading IMO, No case ,new pre amp and finger board are fairly big mods but that was probably a fair price in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 I have just realised the link to the second one with frets added isn't there so I will add it when I'm online. Please don't see this as a price bumping thread either, Unless something really terrible happens I'm not selling mine anytime soon as I love it to bits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 I have added the link I forgot for the second example to the OP and its here too [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-1977-Musicman-Stingray-bass-pre-Ernie-Ball-rare-/250770130371?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item3a631085c3"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-1977-Musicma...=item3a631085c3[/url] I wonder how well the frets have been added? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Jigster' post='1124913' date='Feb 12 2011, 01:08 PM']Pete, I know it's not Pre-EB, but I have tracked down an 86 MM which condition wise looks amazing and it's around the £1200 mark - does that seem..I hesitate to use the word reasonable when you consider what these things cost at source to make...but is it realistic in the current market?[/quote] It's pretty hard to pin the tail on MusicMan donkeys at the best of times and as Pete has outlined these times are no less tricky. My gut feeling (given the info so far) is that we would be looking at a sub 1K figure for this one. Mid 80's 'rays have very little to offer over the current models except mutes and mojo (how about that for the name of a second hand bass shop? ) so the canny buyer has to ask "what am I getting?". Edited February 13, 2011 by Ou7shined Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 The last few late 80's ones we have seen sell have been between about £850-950 which is probably already a premium of about £150-200 over something like my 2002. Can we see it Jigster if we promise not to gazump you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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