Improvisation on Bass - Completely Pointless

[xilddx]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='949516' date='Sep 8 2010, 03:30 PM']Never! I love these threads of yours!

[b]Controversial statement ---> Vociferous discussion ---> Reconciliation ---> General love-in[/b]

Time for stage 4, methinks. I love you guys.[/quote]
KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS KISS

[ShergoldSnickers]

A Melanie Phillips moment there with this thread then Nige? Well I think it's good to stir up the natives - gets us all thinking about areas outside our little fluffy comfort zones. A good thought provoking discussion with good points scattered throughout.

Anyone seen Bilbo?

[synthetic]

For me improvisation is just feeling the vibe and letting that emotion come through naturally in the playing. It is music masturbation where it over steps the mark of being one with the music or other than a short solo. Essentially masturbating exclusively for other masturbaters to stroke their chin and nod approvingly at said agility

Some of the music I make is played in clubs for djs and it happens in a similar way. Over complicated trickery for the sake of it and the result is it will clear a dance floor. Great for other engineers but, not those who want to go and listen to music.

[stingrayPete1977]

You can improv the other way too,Who has never been in a band where for some reason your usually sedate drummer has got a really cool new groove and fill going? I like to leave a little room in the gaps to let it come through rather than builing up with it everytime then other times I go with it and its a right old racket but the audience love it,A bit of both me thinks.....

[thodrik]

I just read my earlier post. I should never attempt to write anything after watching Scotland play football, it puts one into a bad state.

Cool thread though, I'm still in the 'pro-improvisation' camp, though of course there are moments where it isn't needed.

[skej21]

Apparently you can instantly improve the standard of any improvisation by simply playing through an Ampeg. Is that true, or an urban myth?!

[ZMech]

I'm confused, since when did improv mean 'over the top twiddly playing'? as that's what it seems most people are referring to when they say improv on this thread. Most of what I play is improv, and the majority of that time it'll only be half a dozen notes per bar. I can't see how not having working out the bassline beforehand, which would probably result in something similar anyway, can be detrimental to the song.

[synthetic]

I know when I replied it was more of the over the top I'm stealing the show improv Being creative for the benefit of the music content and more importantly the listener is what it's all about. If it's over the top self indulgence then may as well be playing for your own benefit than an audience.

[deathpanda]

[quote name='silddx' post='948783' date='Sep 7 2010, 08:50 PM']For me, improvisation on a bass is for jazz and pompous tits who convince themselves it's entertaining. I wish they would realise NO-ONE GIVES A sh*t.[/quote]

[size=7]IMO[/size]

bass improv is wicked. I care. learning and playing a song note for note live is like having nothing to say, well you might have [i]had[/i] something to say, but please let's just move on, it's tiring... I have all the time in the world for a bassist improvising with a decent drummer who locks in, it's magic.

quick edit*
and of course, it's all about a structured improv. if the bassist is twiddling and soloing for the sake of it, then I'm probably not even at the gig in the first place.

Edited September 8, 2010 by deathpanda

[skej21]

[quote name='deathpanda' post='949824' date='Sep 8 2010, 08:18 PM']learning and playing a song note for note live is like having nothing to say[/quote]

My old tutor used to say a similar thing...

"It's like an artist who can only draw Mickey Mouse"

The point being, it's a useful skill and being able to copy the existing successful part is often bread and butter, but you have to express music with your own personality in there somewhere, or you could have just used a backing track.

Edited September 8, 2010 by skej21

[xilddx]

[quote name='skej21' post='949827' date='Sep 8 2010, 08:22 PM']My old tutor used to say a similar thing...

[b]"It's like an artist who can only draw Mickey Mouse"[/b]

The point being, it's a useful skill and being able to copy the existing successful part is often bread and butter, but you have to express music with your own personality in there somewhere, or you could have just used a backing track.[/quote]
Oh come on! That's absolute tripe. You can play those very same notes with great expression without have to add your mickey mouse fills and embellishments and still put across your passion and lift the song. It's also about the composition and playing the very important support role most of us have to, and love to, fulfil.

[xilddx]

[quote name='deathpanda' post='949824' date='Sep 8 2010, 08:18 PM'][size=7]IMO[/size]

bass improv is wicked. I care. [b]learning and playing a song note for note live is like having nothing to say[/b], well you might have [i]had[/i] something to say, but please let's just move on, it's tiring... I have all the time in the world for a bassist improvising with a decent drummer who locks in, it's magic.

quick edit*
and of course, it's all about a structured improv. if the bassist is twiddling and soloing for the sake of it, then I'm probably not even at the gig in the first place.[/quote]
I simply can not agree with that. You can play the same notes time and again and put across entirely different levels of passion and commitment, mood and involvement. You are saying repetition of notes has ever decreasing power in a live situation. It's just not true. You can have an immense amount of fun and passion with the same notes every time.

[deathpanda]

[quote name='silddx' post='949860' date='Sep 8 2010, 08:49 PM']I simply can not agree with that. You can play the same notes time and again and put across entirely different levels of passion and commitment, mood and involvement. You are saying repetition of notes has ever decreasing power in a live situation. It's just not true.[/quote]

I should mention that most of the gigs I've done have been where I've had to learn songs in their entirety, I understand the buzz you get from playing different venues, the different levels of passion and commitment, but I simply don't care for it much. I get the biggest buzz when the drums and guitar quieten down and I realise that I have about a minute to say something to the audience with my bass. On the other hand, you could just argue that we are bass players, and no ones even paying any attention anyway.

[quote name='silddx' post='949860' date='Sep 8 2010, 08:49 PM']You can have an immense amount of fun and passion with the same notes every time.[/quote]

You can, I can't. And what does it matter at the end of the day...

[ironside1966]

There is a down side to improvising and that is it allows you to keep in you comfort zone it can be a mask to hide flaws in you playing or it can take your playing and the tune or song to new heights.
To learn a tune note for note you could learn so much more. Once you have mastered the original part then you have earned the right to improvise. The skill of a musician is knowing when to and when not to improvise having the ability to make an informed choice for the good of the music because he or she as the ability to do both. You are part of a musical arrangement the fact that it is working well with the other elements is what’s important .

The amount of people I have met who bang on about musical integrity when really their only concern is to show off their musical talents and I use the term loosely with no concept of the rest of tune or arrangement.
There is no right or wrong answers to whether you should improvise it are just the right or wrong reasons to do so.

[endorka]

What Ironside said - absolutely brilliant.

Jennifer

[xilddx]

[quote name='endorka' post='949956' date='Sep 8 2010, 09:46 PM']What Ironside said - absolutely brilliant.

Jennifer[/quote]
I concur!

[deathpanda]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='949933' date='Sep 8 2010, 09:38 PM']There is a down side to improvising and that is it allows you to keep in you comfort zone it can be a mask to hide flaws in you playing or it can take your playing and the tune or song to new heights.
To learn a tune note for note you could learn so much more. Once you have mastered the original part then you have earned the right to improvise. The skill of a musician is knowing when to and when not to improvise having the ability to make an informed choice for the good of the music because he or she as the ability to do both. You are part of a musical arrangement the fact that it is working well with the other elements is what’s important .

The amount of people I have met who bang on about musical integrity when really their only concern is to show off their musical talents and I use the term loosely with no concept of the rest of tune or arrangement.
There is no right or wrong answers to whether you should improvise it are just the right or wrong reasons to do so.[/quote]

I hope I'm not contradicting myself when I say I agree with this entirely. I should have just said that the ability to improvise well, to add to a song and not take from it, is what I strive for personally as a musician.

[xgsjx]

Well Nigel, are you gonna be doing some improvising at the next gig? Just a total random bass solo in the middle of a ballad perhaps???

[Lord Sausage]

For me, playing devils advocate is for pompous tits who convince themselves its entertaining!

[xilddx]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' post='950231' date='Sep 9 2010, 08:48 AM']For me, playing devils advocate is for pompous tits who convince themselves its entertaining![/quote]
Ooh I say!

[skej21]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='949933' date='Sep 8 2010, 09:38 PM']There is a down side to improvising and that is it allows you to keep in you comfort zone it can be a mask to hide flaws in you playing or it can take your playing and the tune or song to new heights.
To learn a tune note for note you could learn so much more. Once you have mastered the original part then you have earned the right to improvise. The skill of a musician is knowing when to and when not to improvise having the ability to make an informed choice for the good of the music because he or she as the ability to do both. You are part of a musical arrangement the fact that it is working well with the other elements is what’s important .

The amount of people I have met who bang on about musical integrity when really their only concern is to show off their musical talents and I use the term loosely with no concept of the rest of tune or arrangement.
There is no right or wrong answers to whether you should improvise it are just the right or wrong reasons to do so.[/quote]

Yeah I agree. The right to improvisation should be earned and used to improve the song you're playing. Even if that means removing notes, or the subtle addition of maybe 1 note, or maybe looser rhythmic phrasing. Whatever you (and your band) think works best

[cheddatom]

Just a quick point - Lots of BCers seem to have this idea that the bassist is some sort of "rock" for the band to stand on. Less is better than more, no-one ever listens to the bassist anyway, etc etc. I think you're mixing yourselves up with the drummer. The drummer is the guy who holds down the band..... (i've written and deleted loads of bollocks, I just can't word it correctly)... if you watch any "jam bands" or just something like the mars volta, the drummer might be playing something f***ed up, but he's still holding down the band. To a certain extent the bassist can improvise whatever he wants without ruining the "songs".

So yeh, the bass is very important, and funky slap soloing over a rock ballad wouldn't work, but there's deffinitely lots of room for improvisation on the bass - a lot more room than for the drummer!

[quote name='Lord Sausage' post='950231' date='Sep 9 2010, 08:48 AM']For me, playing devils advocate is for pompous tits who convince themselves its entertaining![/quote]

I couldn't disagree more.

[xilddx]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='950323' date='Sep 9 2010, 10:03 AM']I couldn't disagree more.[/quote]
Thanks Ched.

[Bassassin]

I play in an originals band, on stage I don't improvise. The notes I play are chosen specifically because they work, they are appropriate for the song and the musical context of the part of the song that they are a component of. They are the [i]right[/i] notes.

I write my band's music - when I compose a bass part, I know exactly what I'm doing, what I'm aiming to create and why. To spontaneously change basslines live would be pointless and would likely clash with what the other musicians are doing. Obviously compositions can evolve through rehearsal & performance, & if for example it occurs to me that playing something differently might enhance a song, I'll develop the idea on my own & then try it at practice to see if it actually works in context.

As a composer I feel it's faintly insulting to suggest that performing a song as it was written is somehow musically stunted and illiterate.

Jon.

[skej21]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='950529' date='Sep 9 2010, 12:52 PM']As a composer I feel it's faintly insulting to suggest that performing a song as it was written is somehow musically stunted and illiterate.

Jon.[/quote]

What happens if you write a drum part that's really unnatural for a musician, for example, a drummer?

I've played bass parts written by other musicians before, and although harmonically/melodically they may have written specific parts to affect the music, their sense of positioning on the instrument often makes parts very difficult to play, because they lack a practical knowledge of that instrument.

I think then, you (as the experienced musician for that part) are entitled to "improvise" and change the notes to make it playable and keep the composer's implied harmonic and meldoic ideas.

Also, I know a lot of drummer's who complain about drum notation that is written by other musicians who don't understand the drum kit and tend to just change it to keep the feel but make it less unnatural.

Edited September 9, 2010 by skej21