Best way to record a DB?

[Beedster]

I'm currently investing in some studio gear and want to ensure I have the best gear to record DB. I guess the key questions relate to mic versus PUP (or both). All thoughts and experience gratefully received

Chris

[51m0n]

Heil PR-40 mic, & a decent very clean pre amp (FMR RNP is very good value).

Oh and a really well sorted room to record in is a must!

Edited August 30, 2010 by 51m0n

[Beedster]

[quote name='51m0n' post='940535' date='Aug 31 2010, 12:01 AM']Heil PR-40 mic, & a decent very clean pre amp (FMR RNP is very good value).

Oh and a really well sorted room to record in is a must![/quote]

Thanks 51m0n. How do you suggest the mic is positioned?

C

[51m0n]

Oh mate, positioning a mic for DB is tricky, and the PR-40 is (like an Electrovoice RE20) a big front address mic.

However its just about the best mic I've heard for kick drum, and gets huge respect also for db on talkbass too.

The big question is, are you on your own in a good iso booth situation (in which case the world is your oyster) or are you plaing with the ensemble in the same room (in which case it all gets trickier!)??

If you are on your own, then get someone to play the instrument for you and literally walk aound the room listening from one ear, close or far from the abss, find the spot where it really sings to you th best. That could be 6 inches from the neck, or 6 feet. It depends on the bass/player/strings/technique/room. Once you are happy, then put the mic there. Most basses sound best a good few feet away - the sound is from the entire instrument - not any one part! Get the mic too close and you dont hear the whole thing, and the sound is ten unbalanced as a result (too much string, not enough depth, not quite the woodiness you know the instrument has in the room etc etc).

If you are in situation two then you have a differnt set of issues (can we say spillage?), again though you need to get somone to play your bass and then you listen to it from all different points, but up close, try and stay within 1ft to 6 inches from it. Popular places (for various reasons) are up under the bridge, by an f whole, but pointing to the bridge or soundpost, over the neck (gets a lot of finger/string sound usually), right at the bottom of the bass pointing up at the bridge. But pay attention to the rest of the ensemble, and learn about polar patterns and how you can use them to help combat the spill from the rest of the band.

Another popular trick (which does work with the PR-40 apparently) is to fabricate a suspension system to hold the mic off under the bridge pointing up at the nck - bungee cord is good! That way moving the bass doesnt make as big a difference to the sound

Really no two of the damn things are the same!

The PR-40 is a pretty expensive dynamic mic mate (around £400) but, its simply the best kick mic I've ever heard (better than a lot of LDC condensers I've heard in th same place costing up to 4 times as much IME) and is also a superb vocal mic (really unlike a normal condenso, this mic extends way up the frquency spectrum - it was designed as a top quality broadcast mic first and foremost - it again compares in quality to some of the best condenser vocal mics IME). It gives unbelievable value in this way.

If I were you I'd get a stereo pair of [url="http://www.cascademicrophones.com/cascade_FAT_HEAD_II_Stereo_PK.html"]Cascade FatHead 2's[/url] with the Lundahl transformer. They make superb room mics (the M/S stereo capture is magic!) great evocative smooth vocal mics, and are just AWESOME on guitar. Another brilliant mic I've had fantastic results from!!!! That s the exact config I've used, and it is realy something special.

[51m0n]

ANother question - how's your soldering?

[dangerboy]

Last time I recorded a DB I used a Beyer M201 (hypercardioid dynamic) shoved up the bridge wrapped in foam, pointing at the fingerboard, and an AKG C414 B-ULS positioned about a foot away from the front of the bass. The M201 captured all the detail of the technique, and the 414 added a big, round, deep double bass feel. That was in a biggish rehearsal studio and came out sounding pretty good. The 414 was in cardioid mode to avoid picking up the baritone sax being recorded at the same time.

I've also used an RE-20 positioned just in front of the F-hole. It gets a good sound provided that the DB player doesn't move their instrument!

[slap_it_hard]

What type of music do you want to record???

[TPJ]

We've used an old SM58 and a D112 in front of the bridge about a foot away, plus two Rode tube condensers picking up the room.
The room matters as mentioned before.

Edited August 31, 2010 by TPJ

[Beedster]

[quote name='51m0n' post='940553' date='Aug 31 2010, 12:42 AM']Oh mate, positioning a mic for DB is tricky, and the PR-40 is (like an Electrovoice RE20) a big front address mic.

However its just about the best mic I've heard for kick drum, and gets huge respect also for db on talkbass too.

The big question is, are you on your own in a good iso booth situation (in which case the world is your oyster) or are you plaing with the ensemble in the same room (in which case it all gets trickier!)??

If you are on your own, then get someone to play the instrument for you and literally walk aound the room listening from one ear, close or far from the abss, find the spot where it really sings to you th best. That could be 6 inches from the neck, or 6 feet. It depends on the bass/player/strings/technique/room. Once you are happy, then put the mic there. Most basses sound best a good few feet away - the sound is from the entire instrument - not any one part! Get the mic too close and you dont hear the whole thing, and the sound is ten unbalanced as a result (too much string, not enough depth, not quite the woodiness you know the instrument has in the room etc etc).

If you are in situation two then you have a differnt set of issues (can we say spillage?), again though you need to get somone to play your bass and then you listen to it from all different points, but up close, try and stay within 1ft to 6 inches from it. Popular places (for various reasons) are up under the bridge, by an f whole, but pointing to the bridge or soundpost, over the neck (gets a lot of finger/string sound usually), right at the bottom of the bass pointing up at the bridge. But pay attention to the rest of the ensemble, and learn about polar patterns and how you can use them to help combat the spill from the rest of the band.

Another popular trick (which does work with the PR-40 apparently) is to fabricate a suspension system to hold the mic off under the bridge pointing up at the nck - bungee cord is good! That way moving the bass doesnt make as big a difference to the sound

Really no two of the damn things are the same!

The PR-40 is a pretty expensive dynamic mic mate (around £400) but, its simply the best kick mic I've ever heard (better than a lot of LDC condensers I've heard in th same place costing up to 4 times as much IME) and is also a superb vocal mic (really unlike a normal condenso, this mic extends way up the frquency spectrum - it was designed as a top quality broadcast mic first and foremost - it again compares in quality to some of the best condenser vocal mics IME). It gives unbelievable value in this way.

If I were you I'd get a stereo pair of [url="http://www.cascademicrophones.com/cascade_FAT_HEAD_II_Stereo_PK.html"]Cascade FatHead 2's[/url] with the Lundahl transformer. They make superb room mics (the M/S stereo capture is magic!) great evocative smooth vocal mics, and are just AWESOME on guitar. Another brilliant mic I've had fantastic results from!!!! That s the exact config I've used, and it is realy something special.[/quote]

That's extremely helpful, many thanks. Likelihood is that I'll be playing at the same time as a slide guitar and percussion, although these will be at low level

Expensive business buying mics isn't it!


[quote name='51m0n' post='940555' date='Aug 31 2010, 12:44 AM']ANother question - how's your soldering?[/quote]

Mmmm, not great, why?


[quote name='dangerboy' post='940609' date='Aug 31 2010, 07:30 AM']Last time I recorded a DB I used a Beyer M201 (hypercardioid dynamic) shoved up the bridge wrapped in foam, pointing at the fingerboard, and an AKG C414 B-ULS positioned about a foot away from the front of the bass. The M201 captured all the detail of the technique, and the 414 added a big, round, deep double bass feel. That was in a biggish rehearsal studio and came out sounding pretty good. The 414 was in cardioid mode to avoid picking up the baritone sax being recorded at the same time.

I've also used an RE-20 positioned just in front of the F-hole. It gets a good sound provided that the DB player doesn't move their instrument![/quote]

Thanks DB, one of the problems I have is that I roll the bass on it's pin a lot, and although I've found that positioning myself in a corner stops me doing this, it kinda limits the feel I put into playing as well, so for me it's either a mic at a sufficient distance from the bass, or one attached to it (I've had pretty good results with a mic three feet away, much closer and the movement can make a difference).


[quote name='slap_it_hard' post='940666' date='Aug 31 2010, 09:08 AM']What type of music do you want to record???[/quote]

Style-wise at its lowest level we're probably talking early Neil Young (e.g., Helpless), that is, kinda folky blues. At it's loudest, late 70's Tom Waits is probably a good reference point (e.g., Heartattack & Vine)

[quote name='TPJ' post='940687' date='Aug 31 2010, 09:38 AM']We've used an old SM58 and a D112 in front of the bridge about a foot away, plus two Rode tube condensers picking up the room.
The room matters as mentioned before.[/quote]

Agreed re the room, it's kinda part of the instrument in a way.



Many thanks for all the suggestions above guys, looks like I've got some research to do. Seems pretty clear that mics as opposed to PUPs are the way forwards, anyone use both (or PUP alone)?

Cheers

Chris

[51m0n]

Only ask about your soldering as products like this:-

[url="http://www.seventhcircleaudio.com/"]Seventh Circle Audio[/url] exist which can give you extremely good value for money preamps, if you can do some decent DIY soldering.

[51m0n]

Yes mic buying is expoensive, I try to offset the cost by buying mics that are proven in multiple applications, and considered very good value for money.

Hence the Cascades and Heil mics (the Heil PR28 is THE best snare/tom mic I've ever heard, and does a pretty good job on brass and any other percussion too).

I love the HEil mics generally to be honest, everything I've heard has been exceptional for a dynamic....

[endorka]

I've used a microphone mount called an "H-Clamp" that is useful if you tend to move about a bit, or don't want the worry of getting the instrument back into the exact same position each time you put it down/pick it up;



I've also found it useful live in quiet to moderately loud settings, such as pit gigs, and it really comes into its own if you do a lot of bowed playing, which I think is the area pickups tend to perform most poorly at.

I have used both pickup and mic for recording and live work; even if you only use the mic, the pickup is useful as a backup in some cases, such as excessive mic bleed, or if you sneeze during that perfect take - the mic will reproduce the sneeze, but the pickup won't.

I much prefer the sound of a double bass recorded through a mic, but a pickup can sound ok when processed by a good sound engineer.

Jennifer

[51m0n]

That looks like a top bit of kit Endorka!

[TPJ]

Have you checked out the [url="http://www.themicstore.co.uk/dpa-4099b-double-bass-mic-911-p.asp"]DPA 4099[/url] Chris?
Quite a bit on TB about these too.

[Beedster]

[quote name='endorka' post='940748' date='Aug 31 2010, 10:40 AM']I've used a microphone mount called an "H-Clamp" that is useful if you tend to move about a bit, or don't want the worry of getting the instrument back into the exact same position each time you put it down/pick it up;

I've also found it useful live in quiet to moderately loud settings, such as pit gigs, and it really comes into its own if you do a lot of bowed playing, which I think is the area pickups tend to perform most poorly at.

I have used both pickup and mic for recording and live work; even if you only use the mic, the pickup is useful as a backup in some cases, such as excessive mic bleed, or if you sneeze during that perfect take - the mic will reproduce the sneeze, but the pickup won't.

I much prefer the sound of a double bass recorded through a mic, but a pickup can sound ok when processed by a good sound engineer.

Jennifer[/quote]


[quote name='51m0n' post='940760' date='Aug 31 2010, 10:50 AM']That looks like a top bit of kit Endorka![/quote]


[quote name='TPJ' post='940785' date='Aug 31 2010, 11:14 AM']Have you checked out the [url="http://www.themicstore.co.uk/dpa-4099b-double-bass-mic-911-p.asp"]DPA 4099[/url] Chris?
Quite a bit on TB about these too.[/quote]

Thanks again guys

Interesting stuff. At the moment, live I'm using an EUB when I need to be loud and a DB when I don't. I'm not overly happy with the EUB tone so I was looking to invest in a PUP for the DB in the near future. Being a little slow, it hadn't occurred to me that I could use the same mic that I'll use to record the bass to mic/amplify it live (it's this lack of lateral thinking that leads to so many apparently daft questions in my threads!!!). So, whilst Jennifer's solution looks elegant, I really do like the look of the DPA 4099. I get the impression from their site that it's equally good in both live and recording applications, although its small size might suggest something of a compromise in truth?

C

Edited August 31, 2010 by Beedster

[ironside1966]

The quality of the instrument, the acoustic space and the positioning of the microphones and the technique of the player will make more difference then changing the mic’s or pre amps.
What type of sound do you want? Do want to record on your own or with a band?
Use the mic’s and pre you have got try recording in different parts of the room, Mackie onyx preamps are good and should be more than adequate. Then try various mic positions once you have got the best sound you can then a better mic will give you about 10% improvement assuming you have at least a couple of half decent mics in the first place.
I would probably try one mic may be A LDC or even a kick mic facing into the F Hole.
A second at the SMD at the bottom of the finger board facing up and may be a room mic, be careful of phasing conflicts
Remeber the sound of a DB doesn’t come from one place it comes from the entire instrument.

[Cat Burrito]

Sounds like you are playing a similar type of music to me. For what it's worth & I don't confess to being an expert on the upright we've just spent a small fortune recording an album with my band. We've tried to get a variety of different ideas on the album and the upright bass tracks were actually done fairly live. We did try using condensor mics but I have a good Shadow pick up in the bridge so actually opted for mainly D.I with just a little blend from the mic. The producer had a reasonable amount of experience recording acoustic & bluegrass instruments which is why we went with this studio - and believe me a [b]lot[/b] of research / viewings went into which studio we booked. We've only got unmixed roughs at present but I've very pleased with what has been captured tonally.

Although we were sectioned off we weren't too worried about a bit of bleed. What was interesting and still surprises me is that the banjo & the mandoln are captured just by the bleed off my mic and the singers mic. We had to switch the banjo / mandolin mic off as it was so over powering. It sounds great (& I appreciate this point is better evidenced when you can hear what I am talking about) but it just shows how much these two instruments cut through.

[51m0n]

Trouble with that DPA4099 (for me) is that it is highly specialised toward DB.

Too highly specialised for a mic over £400 IMO.

For that money I want a far more generalised tool, something that isnt just OK on a lot of stuff or imparting a specific character to the thing it is aimed at.

Put it this way, if I want a kick mic I could go for a D112 or maybe a PR-68, or a D6, or a PR-40. But the D112 has a really overt signature, the 68 has a signature too, but to my ears its less obvious, the PR-40 doesnt have the same thing at all, it has massive low end and high end extension but it isnt eq'ed like a kick mic, its fairly flat comp[aratively, and it sounds like that too, so I am free to add the right eq to the instument in question, rather than being forced to stick with the 'sounds great on most kicks' eq built in to a D112.

Particularly in the case of instruments as variable as DBs are I think a specialised mic rather than a simply excellent mic with a wide frequency range is potentially a big big mistake.

Thats just my opinion though!

[Beedster]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='940965' date='Aug 31 2010, 02:04 PM']The quality of the instrument, the acoustic space and the positioning of the microphones and the technique of the player will make more difference then changing the mic’s or pre amps.
What type of sound do you want? Do want to record on your own or with a band?
Use the mic’s and pre you have got try recording in different parts of the room, Mackie onyx preamps are good and should be more than adequate. Then try various mic positions once you have got the best sound you can then a better mic will give you about 10% improvement assuming you have at least a couple of half decent mics in the first place.
I would probably try one mic may be A LDC or even a kick mic facing into the F Hole.
A second at the SMD at the bottom of the finger board facing up and may be a room mic, be careful of phasing conflicts
Remeber the sound of a DB doesn’t come from one place it comes from the entire instrument.[/quote]

Hiya mate

Thanks for the reply. Agreed, a good mic aimed at a poorly built, poorly positioned and poorly played instrument will still produce a poor sound, and as I'm certainly not looking to spend money I don't need to spend, I will be doing alot of experimentation before any large sums are spent. It's bad timing in a way, in that the point in time at which I'm putting together a studio is the same point in time at which I'm on the steepest part of the DB learning curve, if I were still playing electric bass, or if I could get a good DB tone from an EUB, things would be a whole lot simpler.

For the time being we're likely to be recording live (two/three instruments, percussion and possibly vocals) in a relatively small space, so the closer I can get to the instrument the more control I'll have later on, hence the appeal of Jennifer's set up and your suggestions above (and the DPA4099 although I see this may not be the most versatile option at this point).

I think there's going to have to be a lot of trial and error!


[quote name='BurritoBass' post='940975' date='Aug 31 2010, 02:08 PM']Sounds like you are playing a similar type of music to me. For what it's worth & I don't confess to being an expert on the upright we've just spent a small fortune recording an album with my band. We've tried to get a variety of different ideas on the album and the upright bass tracks were actually done fairly live. We did try using condensor mics but I have a good Shadow pick up in the bridge so actually opted for mainly D.I with just a little blend from the mic. The producer had a reasonable amount of experience recording acoustic & bluegrass instruments which is why we went with this studio - and believe me a [b]lot[/b] of research / viewings went into which studio we booked. We've only got unmixed roughs at present but I've very pleased with what has been captured tonally.

Although we were sectioned off we weren't too worried about a bit of bleed. What was interesting and still surprises me is that the banjo & the mandoln are captured just by the bleed off my mic and the singers mic. We had to switch the banjo / mandolin mic off as it was so over powering. It sounds great (& I appreciate this point is better evidenced when you can hear what I am talking about) but it just shows how much these two instruments cut through.[/quote]

Glad the recording went well BB. Although this probably contradicts what I said above, I'm happy to accept some bleed into the DB signal as long as I've got the best bass signal I can get. If that means the mic needs to be a few feet away from my instrument and therefore picking up other instruments, so be it. Just means you have to get the performance right!

Last time we recorded we had a similar thing with the lead guitar, it was on everything!


[quote name='51m0n' post='940983' date='Aug 31 2010, 02:17 PM']Trouble with that DPA4099 (for me) is that it is highly specialised toward DB.

Too highly specialised for a mic over £400 IMO.

For that money I want a far more generalised tool, something that isnt just OK on a lot of stuff or imparting a specific character to the thing it is aimed at.

Put it this way, if I want a kick mic I could go for a D112 or maybe a PR-68, or a D6, or a PR-40. But the D112 has a really overt signature, the 68 has a signature too, but to my ears its less obvious, the PR-40 doesnt have the same thing at all, it has massive low end and high end extension but it isnt eq'ed like a kick mic, its fairly flat comp[aratively, and it sounds like that too, so I am free to add the right eq to the instument in question, rather than being forced to stick with the 'sounds great on most kicks' eq built in to a D112.

Particularly in the case of instruments as variable as DBs are I think a specialised mic rather than a simply excellent mic with a wide frequency range is potentially a big big mistake.

Thats just my opinion though![/quote]

I see your point Simon, I guess I looked at that and thought that it might solve both the studio and live problem, or at least, partially solve the former in that I would probably want a more remote mic also. A bit off topic I know (in that I'm talking live not studio now), but is there anything in the manufacturer's claims re reduced feedback from this specialised DB mic that might still however make it a better bet live than a wide-range but more general mic? We saw a band yesterday afternoon and as soon as the DB started it was feedback city, and given that our guitarist is prone to similar problems, the last thing we need is the two of us at it!

Cheers for the help above guys, like my studio build thread, it's great to get so much input so quickly

Chris

[51m0n]

Hey, check out this review on TB.

The guy is using a Heil pR-40 for live db (using an improvised mount as I described above)

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=329316"]PR-40 review[/url]

Looking at it, I think that he has a newer stubbier version of it than I've used though...

[endorka]

[quote name='Beedster' post='941026' date='Aug 31 2010, 02:55 PM']A bit off topic I know (in that I'm talking live not studio now), but is there anything in the manufacturer's claims re reduced feedback from this specialised DB mic that might still however make it a better bet live than a wide-range but more general mic? We saw a band yesterday afternoon and as soon as the DB started it was feedback city, and given that our guitarist is prone to similar problems, the last thing we need is the two of us at it![/quote]

I know nothing about that particular mic, but I can tell you a bit about my experiences using mics with DBs in live situations. At low volume levels they alone are fine; if you go to medium levels, say a small band with light drums, or a pit gig, you're probably going to need a pickup to ensure you can hear yourself well. At medium levels my preferred setup is to put the pickup into my amp for monitoring purposes only, as using the mic for onstage monitoring will tend to result in feedback. The mic goes to the front of house. This system can work really well, although the onstage sound will not be as good as the front of house. This is something you'll need to get used to though, unless you use headphones or in ear monitors.

For loud situations, the mic will likely be unworkable because of feedback, so the best you can hope for is to have a blend of mic and pickup in the front of house, but for all the difference it makes, the engineer will often just use the pickup.

Amplifying a DB is an interesting dilemma; we are expected to have a good sound, no feedback, and to play with good pitch in sonic situations other strings are not. For example, most professional shows with strings will have perspex shielding round the drums, or similar, to lower onstage volume sufficiently for the strings to do their thing well. This tends not to happen for double bass players, so you usually just have to make the best of it :-)

Jennifer

[Beedster]

[quote name='51m0n' post='941064' date='Aug 31 2010, 03:52 PM']Hey, check out this review on TB.

The guy is using a Heil pR-40 for live db (using an improvised mount as I described above)

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=329316"]PR-40 review[/url]

Looking at it, I think that he has a newer stubbier version of it than I've used though...[/quote]

Thanks mate, good stuff. The photo is deceptive, I think he's got a spoffle (windshield) on there, and he's running the entire mic under the bridge, which i guess means it's actually touching the bass?

C

[Beedster]

[quote name='endorka' post='941096' date='Aug 31 2010, 04:41 PM']I know nothing about that particular mic, but I can tell you a bit about my experiences using mics with DBs in live situations. At low volume levels they alone are fine; if you go to medium levels, say a small band with light drums, or a pit gig, you're probably going to need a pickup to ensure you can hear yourself well. At medium levels my preferred setup is to put the pickup into my amp for monitoring purposes only, as using the mic for onstage monitoring will tend to result in feedback. The mic goes to the front of house. This system can work really well, although the onstage sound will not be as good as the front of house. This is something you'll need to get used to though, unless you use headphones or in ear monitors.

For loud situations, the mic will likely be unworkable because of feedback, so the best you can hope for is to have a blend of mic and pickup in the front of house, but for all the difference it makes, the engineer will often just use the pickup.

Amplifying a DB is an interesting dilemma; we are expected to have a good sound, no feedback, and to play with good pitch in sonic situations other strings are not. For example, most professional shows with strings will have perspex shielding round the drums, or similar, to lower onstage volume sufficiently for the strings to do their thing well. This tends not to happen for double bass players, so you usually just have to make the best of it :-)

Jennifer[/quote]

Wise words Jennifer, thanks. We had a long chat with a local sound guy about whether he thought we could play at a particular local venue with the bass un-amplified, and I'm pleased to report that he thinks we can do it, albeit with some on stage 'presence' (i.e., attitude) to limit the amount of audience noise we'll need to deal with. Having recently moved over to DB from electric bass within the same band, it's really interesting how the guys have learned to drop with me, knowing that I don't have a volume control to being quieter passages up to their volume, it's really brought a new dynamic and feel to the music. We're now all quite fired up about playing an almost unplugged set (OK, vocals will be mic'd, and guitars will be amplified, but theoretically not above the level of the DB), but I'm starting to think a close proximity mic on the DB might at least give the soundguy some options should it prove that it isn't working out front.

C

[Beedster]

[quote name='51m0n' post='941064' date='Aug 31 2010, 03:52 PM']Hey, check out this review on TB.

The guy is using a Heil pR-40 for live db (using an improvised mount as I described above)

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=329316"]PR-40 review[/url]

Looking at it, I think that he has a newer stubbier version of it than I've used though...[/quote]

It's a great thread, I found this post interesting:

"What I find to be the critical indicator of how good a mic is for recording DB is how good the other instruments sound that bleed into it. A more technical description is how smooth the off-axis response is. If the bass sounds great, but the ride cymbal bleeding in sounds really harsh, that's a problem. If you have to EQ the harshness out of the ride it may affect the good bass sound in a bad way, etc. I find that the bass mic is integral to the drum sound due to all the bleed. If the drums bleed sounds bad in the bass mic - the mic is probably not a keeper. You'll always be having to choose between messing up the bass sound or messing up the drums. "

It's a good point, and one more thing to worry about

C

[Beedster]

As is this.....

"i love the heil mic, but mine is retired as a bass mic. the dpa 4099 just runs circles around it, both sonically and in terms of feedback resistance. that and it weighs around a thousand times less."

I wonder how it performs in the context of the above post?

C