Best way to record a DB?

[BassBod]

One reason I normally play EUB is that I've never found mics that can work in anything like a real gig/festival situation. The best solution I know of is to run a good pickup/amp/DI setup for your stage sound, and use a good mic only for front of house....but don't try using it for your monitor/stage sound. I've never had the luxury of trying this, but I will one day!

I use an acoustic for recording, but rarely get effective isolation, so more often than not its still the pickup that gets used most.

[ironside1966]

One of the downsides of asking for advices is if you ask a hundred engineers you will get 200 different answers what works for one instrument or situation will not work for another.
Pickups are great solutions live in fact in many cases the only solution. Good ones sound good but they do not capture a true DB sound but that doesn’t have to be a problem if it’s the sound you want.
If you are a virtuoso player with a very expensive vintage DB then I would expect the recording to be as accurate as possible but for most types of music you want to capture a great sound that works well with the track. What I am trying to say a pickup might work for you.
One of the things I have seen so often is people buying gear rather than getting the best out of what they have, work with you gear and find out where its lacking rather than you will be in a better place to judge what you want or need. Do you want a mic that is transparent or do you want something to add character?

[zero9]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='941276' date='Aug 31 2010, 07:34 PM']One of the things I have seen so often is people buying gear rather than getting the best out of what they have, work with you gear and find out where its lacking rather than you will be in a better place to judge what you want or need.[/quote]

+1

[Beedster]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='941276' date='Aug 31 2010, 07:34 PM']One of the downsides of asking for advices is if you ask a hundred engineers you will get 200 different answers what works for one instrument or situation will not work for another.
.....

One of the things I have seen so often is people buying gear rather than getting the best out of what they have, work with you gear and find out where its lacking rather than you will be in a better place to judge what you want or need. Do you want a mic that is transparent or do you want something to add character?[/quote]


Agreed, but that's true of everything. You have to start somewhere, and if, as is my present situation, you have no studio gear as yet, there's no point spending a little money on the wrong thing and then with some trial an error realising that a little more money would have got you what you really need. With respect mate, are you suggesting I simply buy any old thing and make it work somehow? No, I doubt it, so, some indication of yours and other people's experience and opinion is a very useful starting point, even if not 100% reliable. I've learned a lot from this thread already, some of it on the pages, and some of it on other sites I've been linked to. What I like about these types of threads (especially this and my studio build), is that I don't just learn what people do but why they do it, and if the 'why' is a solution to a set of unique circumstances similar to my own, it will resonate as much as the 'what' in guiding my decision (by 'what' I mean details such as best frequency response etc).

Now, back on topic. Do I want transparency or character? No idea, you tell me the pros and cons of each, I'll compare your views with those of other respondents, and make up my mind. That's why I started this thread

Thanks again, and apologies of I've ranted above!

C

Edited September 1, 2010 by Beedster

[TPJ]

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=482357"]More food for thought[/url]

I've tried this and it works well for recording, quiet live situations and with a pup for louder situations.
I've also substituted different mics for different tone.

Great thread by the way.

[BassBod]

For home/project studios I'd suggest the following approach. Record as live as possible with other musicians, but record acoustic bass with just the pickup. When you get the best take from everyone else, then re-record your acoustic bass, but using a combination of good condenser (usually your best "vocal" mike) and pickup. Then you've got plenty of time to experiment with room placement for your bass and mikes etc without excessive bleed and boring everyone else involved. I've had good results from expensive vocal type condensers and also cheaper dynamic bass drum mics. Experiment with what you've got.

You also have the benefit of experimenting a bit more with your part, although it may be limited to a close copy of what you originally played if it is too audible in other tracks.

[ironside1966]

am assuming you already have a few microphones and are looking for something for that particular purpose. My advice would be get one good all rounder and a couple of SD condensers

The question is how much you want to spend. There are some great mic about for not a lot of money from Rode, Se also have a look at the Red5 Audio there valve one is great for the money, or do you want to go for something expensive straight away so you never have to buy again.
It is easier to make a mic with character than to make a mic with a flat or transparent response.
Pros and cons - on my horrible nasally voice a mic with strong presence would exaggerate that were as a nice fluffy warm mic should sound better, now enter Chris Rea the one with the presence peak will help him cut through the mix and the fluffy warm one will be too much . A neutral mic may not always sound the best but it would suite most applications.
The point I am trying to make is don’t fall into the trap of buying gear for the sake of it.
My choice of mics would be
Cheapish
LDC, Red5 Valve mic –SMD, SE 1a
Mid
Neumann TLM102 - SE 3 or NT55
High
Neumann U87 or TLM193 – Neumann KM 184
But used correctly even the cheaper ones are capable of great results.

[Beedster]

[quote name='TPJ' post='940785' date='Aug 31 2010, 11:14 AM']Have you checked out the [url="http://www.themicstore.co.uk/dpa-4099b-double-bass-mic-911-p.asp"]DPA 4099[/url] Chris?
Quite a bit on TB about these too.[/quote]

Hi Tom
Do you own one, and if so, what do you think? Having read around, it strikes me as a good balance between PUP and conventional mic?
C

[Beedster]

[quote name='TPJ' post='941753' date='Sep 1 2010, 09:49 AM'][url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=482357"]More food for thought[/url]

I've tried this and it works well for recording, quiet live situations and with a pup for louder situations.
I've also substituted different mics for different tone.

Great thread by the way.[/quote]

Cheers Tom, that's an interesting approach!


[quote name='BassBod' post='941908' date='Sep 1 2010, 12:05 PM']For home/project studios I'd suggest the following approach. Record as live as possible with other musicians, but record acoustic bass with just the pickup. When you get the best take from everyone else, then re-record your acoustic bass, but using a combination of good condenser (usually your best "vocal" mike) and pickup. Then you've got plenty of time to experiment with room placement for your bass and mikes etc without excessive bleed and boring everyone else involved. I've had good results from expensive vocal type condensers and also cheaper dynamic bass drum mics. Experiment with what you've got.

You also have the benefit of experimenting a bit more with your part, although it may be limited to a close copy of what you originally played if it is too audible in other tracks.[/quote]

Hiya Duncan, good idea, I guess the outcome would depend on how much the original DB performance bleeds onto other tracks (or how good I am at replicating a performance)? Worth working on though, thanks.

[quote name='ironside1966' post='942710' date='Sep 1 2010, 09:37 PM']am assuming you already have a few microphones and are looking for something for that particular purpose. My advice would be get one good all rounder and a couple of SD condensers
The question is how much you want to spend. There are some great mic about for not a lot of money from Rode, Se also have a look at the Red5 Audio there valve one is great for the money, or do you want to go for something expensive straight away so you never have to buy again.
It is easier to make a mic with character than to make a mic with a flat or transparent response.
Pros and cons - on my horrible nasally voice a mic with strong presence would exaggerate that were as a nice fluffy warm mic should sound better, now enter Chris Rea the one with the presence peak will help him cut through the mix and the fluffy warm one will be too much . A neutral mic may not always sound the best but it would suite most applications.
The point I am trying to make is don’t fall into the trap of buying gear for the sake of it.
My choice of mics would be
Cheapish
LDC, Red5 Valve mic –SMD, SE 1a
Mid
Neumann TLM102 - SE 3 or NT55
High
Neumann U87 or TLM193 – Neumann KM 184
But used correctly even the cheaper ones are capable of great results.[/quote]

Thanks I66, that's interesting stuff re balance between signal and mic response, and I'll take a look at those mics

Cheers

C

[TPJ]

[quote name='Beedster' post='942848' date='Sep 1 2010, 11:51 PM']Hi Tom
Do you own one, and if so, what do you think? Having read around, it strikes me as a good balance between PUP and conventional mic?
C[/quote]

I don't have one Chris, I've just read exhaustively about them and am slowly saving for one I think Bassace may have one though.

They are a mic at the end of the day and will feedback at higher sound pressure levels but seem to have a higher resistance to feedback than other mics.

Edited September 2, 2010 by TPJ

[Beedster]

[quote name='TPJ' post='943025' date='Sep 2 2010, 09:23 AM']I don't have one Chris, I've just read exhaustively about them and am slowly saving for one I think Bassace may have one though.

They are a mic at the end of the day and will feedback at higher sound pressure levels but seem to have a higher resistance to feedback than other mics.[/quote]

Thanks Tom

Difficult one this as these aren't really the sort of thing you can walk into shops and compare with PUPs and the like! I have my first gig on DB in a couple of weeks, and although it's a very small club at which I think I might get away with it acoustically, I'd like to at least give the sound guy the option of bringing me up if he thinks it necessary, even if I'm not amplified through the backline. The mics at the club are pretty crap and I don't want to risk shedloads of feedback working with something on the night that I haven't experimented with beforehand. Given what the guys on TB have said, I'm tempted to go for the Heil PR40, which I guess would be a versatile studio mic as well as a good option for low-level live sound, and then look at a PUP to augment this for louder situations as a few folks have suggested above.

But that damn DPA4099 keeps calling my name!

I think one of the more interesting posts on TB was the one I pasted above, discussing how when recording a double bass, you should be aware of how the other instruments bleeding into the mic sound, which leaves two options; firstly, exhaustive homework on not only how each prospective mic sounds with DB but how they will sound with a range of other instruments, or secondly (and far more simply) by a mic designed and optimised for DB and get it as close to the instrument as possible to avoid most of the bleed.

I think someone said above that amplifying and recording DB is ultimately a compromise, and I'm seeing that all too clearly. To my mind however it makes sense at this stage to opt for something that will be useful in both studio and live settings (the Heil probably wins over the DPA on versatility), relatively simple to use and set up live (I'm guessing the DPA wins on that front, even the fans of the Heil on TB suggest that its weight renders it problematic to secure to a bass, an H-clamp not being sufficient for a couple of positions) and has good enough response for both settings, and it's this last that I need to get to grips with. I've always assumed that, all other things being equal, a larger mic is a better mic, and I'm sure there's a host of other issues I haven't even thought of. So, in a Harry Hill style fight with the Heil in one corner and the DPA in the other, what do you reckon guys (keep in mind I need it to work for both studio and live)?

C

Edited September 2, 2010 by Beedster

[51m0n]

You already know my opinion I think

There are not that many mics in that price range that you could really say excel at as many sources as a PR-40 (IMO).

If you are worried about the studio first and foremost its an absolute no-brainer to me. I can honestly say its very very good at kick, vocal (smoother than a condensor but still plenty of top, and a really nice other option, worked for me on some voices where a condensor of some quality has not), full kit (ie room mic), DB, Leslie (esp the bottom speaker), congas, loud guitar amps etc etc. I have never noticed any issue with its output gain whilst recording with it. not once.

If you are worried about live first and foremost and are willing to spend more on other mics then the DPA is probably the better solution for live (haven't heard it so I cant get too excited, although a lot of people love it).

No mic can cover all the bases and applications you may need a mic for however, it's up to you to weigh up your priorities at this point.

I'd also lean heavily toward PR-28s for drums (4 or 5 of them depending on the kit size) and the best small diameter condensors you can afford as a stereo pair for overheads. Also look at maybe getting a third for the hats.

Then the Cascade FatHead II stereo package for room mics, another variation of vocal mic, and mainly on guitars.

That leaves you needing a good large diaphragm condensor mic for you main vocal mic, (oh boy, huge can of worms). Neuman (or a clone thereof) is always a very strong contender, but many consider the ubiquitous U87 overpriced (its a damned good mic but there are a lot of damned good mics), but dont discount the likes of AKG 414...

Gets expensive fast does a good mic locker I'm afraid.

[Beedster]

[quote name='51m0n' post='943140' date='Sep 2 2010, 11:03 AM']You already know my opinion I think

There are not that many mics in that price range that you could really say excel at as many sources as a PR-40 (IMO).

If you are worried about the studio first and foremost its an absolute no-brainer to me. I can honestly say its very very good at kick, vocal (smoother than a condensor but still plenty of top, and a really nice other option, worked for me on some voices where a condensor of some quality has not), full kit (ie room mic), DB, Leslie (esp the bottom speaker), congas, loud guitar amps etc etc. I have never noticed any issue with its output gain whilst recording with it. not once.

If you are worried about live first and foremost and are willing to spend more on other mics then the DPA is probably the better solution for live (haven't heard it so I cant get too excited, although a lot of people love it).

No mic can cover all the bases and applications you may need a mic for however, it's up to you to weigh up your priorities at this point.

I'd also lean heavily toward PR-28s for drums (4 or 5 of them depending on the kit size) and the best small diameter condensors you can afford as a stereo pair for overheads. Also look at maybe getting a third for the hats.

Then the Cascade FatHead II stereo package for room mics, another variation of vocal mic, and mainly on guitars.

That leaves you needing a good large diaphragm condensor mic for you main vocal mic, (oh boy, huge can of worms). Neuman (or a clone thereof) is always a very strong contender, but many consider the ubiquitous U87 overpriced (its a damned good mic but there are a lot of damned good mics), but dont discount the likes of AKG 414...

Gets expensive fast does a good mic locker I'm afraid.[/quote]

Damn you! There I was thinking "OK, I'm going to go for the DPA" and you post that. Thanks Simon, again some very good thoughts there. You and Mr Ironside66 between you are going to get me into trouble with my bank for sure, just too many options (BTW, did you read the thread on TB about Heil having a prototype smaller PR-40 but not following it through to production?). I guess my main worry with the Heil (over the DPA) is having something that big and heavy on my DB live, but I think that's something i have to work around, certainly if it's as versatile as you suggest.

Bit of thinking time required here I think! If I didn't have the pressure of this gig in two weeks I'd be happy to wait a while, but I think I'll have to make my mind up soonish. I'm thinking I might be best of buying a PUP for my immediate needs and taking my time over the mics, let's face it, I'll probably need a PUP for live DB playing (and even recording as Duncan suggested above), irrespective of how good a mic I eventually buy?

Thanks again

Chris

[51m0n]

For a bit of perspective, its perfectly possible to produce a great recording with a bunch of sm57s, if you have the know how. Its easier if you have a good condensor or two as well.

Its perfectly possible to do a reasonable to good job of micing a db for live with an sm57.

Really. No doubt at all, it can be done.

What you are after is mics that make getting a great result easier and less hit and miss.

Do you need a million mics, no. Do you need individual £3000 mics? No.

You need a good set of real workhorses that wont stop you getting good results.

Total cost should be well under £5000. £3000 should go a long long way to covering the basics with real quality kit. If you cant make decent recordings with £3000 worth of mics then find another past time! That rules out a [url="http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/u87/1553"]U87[/url] immediately. Dont sweat it though, you can still get amazing recordings with cheaper [url="http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/tlm103-+-shockmount/1552"]alternatives[/url].

But you want to mic your bass for a gig. This is clouding your judgement IMO, live you could use a million different mics to get a bit of DB into the PA, and they would be perfectly adequate, as long as you can place them on the instrument in a way that works fo ryou and allows that specific mic to capture the right part of the sound. The thing with DB live is not the mic as much as the position you can put it in to cope with the inherent compromises. That DPA happens to make this much easier, but it doesn't make it the only option. Maybe now isnt the time to concentrate on your live db mic?

[Beedster]

[quote name='51m0n' post='943203' date='Sep 2 2010, 11:48 AM']Maybe now isnt the time to concentrate on your live db mic?[/quote]

Totally agree Simon (don't get me wrong, I agreed with what you said in the rest of the post as well). I think I might make do with an SM57 for the gig and see how it goes

Cheers

Chris

[51m0n]

FWIW an SM57 can make a pretty decent kick mic if its in exactly the right position...

Not a lot of people know that