Phil Starr

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1445601082' post='2892719'] I preferred A in the first two sample. In the rehearsal, I can forgive your hesitation. Black Velvet is a deceptive song in that if is all about the bass and the passages ate the end of the chorus are a B. I read that the bass line on the record was a mixture of real bass and synthesised bass. Or maybe that was my excuse as I found it hard, On second and subsequent listenings the B speaker seems mid heavy or bass light. I am using AKG 450 headphones from an old macbook pro so the quality should be OK. [/quote] you were supposed to be judging the tone of the speaker, not my bass playing And you are right about the end of the chorus, fixed now.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1445509347' post='2891956'] I like B better out of those recordings, though the difference doesn't seem huge. Both are a more pleasing tone (to my tastes at least) than the recordings of the Markbass combos from the same day. [/quote] You've no idea how encouraging that is. I know these speakers model well and that they are hugely capable of handling bass and high volumes well but the voicing is something else. I'd feel really responsible if no-one else liked them. That's the first ever comment to directly compare them with a commercial cab.

Another sound clip for you. This is me, so forgive the playing, it was our first run through of this particular song so there is some hesitancy but you can hear the tone quite well. It has what I think of as a slight 'thoatiness'. This is using my Hartke HA3500 and I think I had my Fender Highway One Jazz for this. Can't remember all the eq but the deep bass is rolled off at 30hz on the graphic cos i always do that. https://soundcloud.com/philstarr-1/black-velvet-27-april/s-wnPYC

I'd love to hear any comments about the homebrew 1x12's if any of you tried them. Are we in the right ballpark given that these would cost you less than £150 and will go very loud compared with most commercial 1x12's. Any feedback will be used to improve future designs.

Well the OP did start off saying about the drums being miked up, so this is a band that wants to be louder than a drumkit allows, without that you are pretty much stuck at playing at the drummer's level. I feel sorry for drummers, even if you find the fabled drummer who can play quiet I'd still want to use the whole dynamic range of my kit. I'd find it tough if someone told me I could only play bass gently. You could have louder and quieter kits but who has the space to store multiple kits never mind the expense, though I suspect drummers have GAS too. No sympathy for the over loud guitarist though. The rot was there from the start. When I ran sound for bands in the early 70's you struggled to be heard with PA limited to a pair of WEM columns. Instrument amps had to reach the back of the room unaided so the Marshall full stack was born. Singers sang in their higher range just to cut through, a lot of rock norms/cliches were born of necessity. Now gear is cheap and the easy (lazy?) way of playing classic rock is to just copy the gear from your heroes, who would have killed to be able to use the equipment we have now. GAS is a problem too, most bands are amateurs whose hobby it is. Buying the best gear you can afford and lots of it is part of the fun, once you have it you've got to give it a run out haven't you. Even I had a lot of fun at one gig where my drummer shouted at me to turn up and I did. Spent the first half not needing to pick and damping the strings which were singing with feedback, and oh the tone Very gratifying to have said drummist saying he couldn't hear his own snare drum. He hasn't asked me to turn up since strangely. But you can't sound your best at the volumes a lot of pub bands play at and I'm with the people who say you should be playing for the audiences not yourselves, especially if someone is paying you to play. There are lots of good technical reasons why keeping sound levels down is better and really there is no excuse.

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1445454474' post='2891665'] There was quite a lot of background noise in the recordings, and the first set of recordings weren't flat. Here are two short recordings of the two cabs, playing the same phrase with both on the same amp (markbass set eq flat), played next to each other. There is more but it is very noisy. However, the conditions are very similar (and distances the same) as the test on the somerset bash, so these could easily be compared with the markbass recordings. Anyway: A: [attachment=203220:SpkrA.wav] B: [attachment=203221:SpkrB.wav] [/quote] Ok the two recordings are of two cabs both fitted with the Beymas One has a 12mm wall, tubular ports and is extensively braced and the other has an 18mm wall, slot port and no bracing. Both are 50litre cabs tuned to 50Hz. I don't know which cab is which and embarrassingly I can't be sure from the recordings which is which either. I have gigged the 12mm cab extensively but only had 10mins with the 18mm cab before giving it over to Stevie. I wasn't there when the recordings were made at the Southwest bass bash. The differences aren't huge but I do have a preference. I'm not saying though until I hear what you think. If you can't open the recordings I found Windows Media Player opened them but I'm told you can copy them onto your desktop and rename them as wav files as an alternative. Though weirdly Basschat has done this for you when I used Woodinblacks post as a quote

Use the curtain pole to cross brace and stiffen the cab internally

The ply was sold as 'baltic birch' it was pretty poor quality tbh with patches in the faces and it splintered badly under the saw. My opinion is that one of the qualities that makes a good panel is high mass, so there is a compromise between the 'deadness' of the cab and being able to lift it. My Hifi cabs always use MDF for example but my preference is for 3/4 ply as a good compromise for stage gear. Building both a braced 12mm and an unbraced 18mm cab in this process was to check it wasn't ignorant prejudice on my part. I much prefer the sound of the 18mm version and the panels certainly vibrate less with high power sound. It may be that i could rearrange the bracing for better effect and I intend experimenting more but I was aiming for an easy build which didn't need sophisticated machine tools so I didn't do too much this time.

Hi everyone, although I can't make it I've arranged with Stevie for the Basschat 12" speakers to be there. Thanks to GrahamT for taking them across. Here's where the design took place if you haven't been following it http://basschat.co.uk/topic/227904-1x12-cab-design-diary/page__st__420__p__2847253__hl__12%20beyma__fromsearch__1#entry2847253

Hi Everyone. I finished the cab this morning, sorry about the wait but I had decided not to come back on until there was something to report. If you live in the SouthWest you can go and try them out at the Southwest bass bash this Sunday. Please go along if you can make it. I really want as many opinions as possible so I can learn what you want and incorporate that into future designs. The cab fits the spec you all helped to draw up but does it meet your needs??? Please please go along and try them if you can, I'm sure theres also going to be lots of other lovely gear there too and great people. http://basschat.co.uk/topic/270435-south-west-bass-bash-yes-a-real-one-sunday-18th-october/page__pid__2886424__st__30#entry2886424 I'll put up plenty of pics soon. It still need another cuple of coats of Tuffcote and a better grille but this is it. Get to the bass bash if you can

I've never even considered something like this. I really wouldn't know what I'm buying or recognise any particular luthier by name so for me i just read any ad as 'unknown make'. If that is true of other people then that's one reason for the lack of interest. I guess new they'd be out of my price bracket so there has been no point in finding out about something I'd never be able to afford. I wnder how many bargains have passed me by....

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1442840273' post='2869878'] The SM series are a blast from the past and although still good mics there are many better mics available. In fact there is an Utban Myth that some BBC sound techs prefer Behringer Mics to Shure, I must ask my friend Uli who told him that story. For value actually the Behringer XM8500 with a foam windshield/screen takes some beating. [/quote] I had the chance to A/B the Behringer with an SM58 a few years back. Not a lot in it for sound, if anything the XM was slightly brighter sounding but with a bit more handling noise, it's also a supercardioid so I'd expect better feedback rejection. It broke not long after despite looking like a well made thing, turned out someone had trimmed the internal wires too short and the solder had come away, a two minute fix but the only failure I've ever had with Behringer stuff to be fair.

[quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1441790175' post='2861715'] One of the qualities Elixir play on is their supposed longevity compared to other brands/types. So I am going to be conducting a more long-term test, i.e. I will report back properly in a few months' time rather than give a short-term sitrep. Suffice to say that they've lasted three rehearsals and two gigs so far without any deterioration to speak of, which is what I'd expect of my usual strings! Watch this space [/quote] Well I fitted a set of Elixirs on my P, a birthday present in March, I also fitted a set of Dean Markleys (also long lasting/expensive strings) on my J. I've probably done 15-20 gigs since then and practice about an hour a day. To be fair I do most of my practice on the J esp since I fitted a J-Retro and most of the gigs with the P. I use a standard two finger picking style and never use a pick. Both sets still sound good, they sounded similar when I first set them up allowing for the different basses they are on, and I preferred the sound of the Dean Markleys at first as they were slightly more sparkly sounding. I think I'd have to say the Elixirs sound slightly better to my ears now so it looks like a win for the Elixirs in terms of longevity, though the differences are subtle and I doubt anyone else in the band would notice. Both sets are still plenty good enough to gig with. Not very scientific because of the two basses used and the J-Retro upgrade of the passive J with the Markleys which changed the way the whole set up sounds for the better. To give some context I moved from Rotosounds to Markleys because I was replacing the Roto's after 3-4 months as their sound died. The Markleys last me about a year so at double the price they work out cheaper in the long run. The Elixirs are going to have to make 18 months to be worthwhile. I don't like new Roto's but love the sound they reach a few weeks old.

Sorry, I'm going to have to miss out. Family commitments too.

I don't think there's a big deal about mic'ing the kick in principle. It's not much different from using a compressor to control the dynamics of your bass. As a drummer you'd probably want to work on your technique to make it unnecessary but I wouldn't hesitate to add a bit through the PA if it was a problem. Assuming the PA can handle it though. The biggest problem is mic placement, moving it a cm back or forward makes a huge difference in sound as does which bit of the skin you point at. Not something I like doing if we're 'on in ten'. I also think it can be a bit of a comfort blanket, I've run mic's before and not actually put anything through the PA, happy drummist and no one notices. Don't tell anyone though

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1444726574' post='2885307'] I've always been a fan of this approach in smaller venues. Acoustic drums sound so good compared to basic micing through an underpowered PA. The sticking point is often the drummer having too light a right foot and/or an overdamped kick drum. The drummer in my last band had two kits, one smaller shells with a 22" kick and one bigger shells with a 26" kick - we'd just bring the kit that suited the size of the venue. A 26" kick drum with minimal damping can slam through a BIG space. And small PA systems sound much better on vocals if they're not dealing with other instruments, especially lower frequency ones that push the mid-bass drivers hard. The other common sticking point is the miserable dispersion from guitar amps, especially closed back 4x12" cabs. But I have a solution for that... [/quote]Oh yes. Whilst you are on Alex it might be good to tell Jennie how to get the best out of the FR800's she seems keen on.

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1444639478' post='2884615'] Our trouble is our drums cut through too much , which means we have to compensate and it starts getting too loud for my liking. Thing is one of the best sounds we have had was when we just used back line and just put vocals through the PA. On the other hand, in our main gig, we can't use just back line as the place gets really noisy and we would be swamped. [/quote] Not sure if we should hi-jack this thread but that is the more normal problem. If your drummer is too loud then bassist has to match that volume and everyone else too. The resultant sound level in a restricted space, and most UK venues are small, is usually enough to guarantee feedback problems or at least a very muddy sound because of the backline being picked up by the vocal mic's. If it is a problem you have to get the drummer to come down a bit. lighter sticks and a less punchy kit are options but a good drummer has a lot of control over volume without destroying their dynamics. Back line with vocals only going through the PA is a great solution because it is simple, so unless you have a sound engineer it is the easiest system for a band to control. I'm not surprised you get your best sound that way. Having everything through the PA is also relatively straightforward and gives you the option of dropping the stage levels right down, but it works best with someone out front mixing. Hybrid set ups with half the band going direct and the other half through the PA need a lot more work and thought to sound really good yet so many bands end up using this method.

There's nothing mysterious about this at all. 90% of bands are in a roughly semi-pro situation. You get paid but people play for love more than the money and most have full time jobs and often a family. There are also more bands than venues so most bands can only get limited work. So out of choice or necessity many bands will only gig part time. Usually one or two band members want to do a bit more and will have other projects. So long as you honour any bookings you get there is no tension usually. If both bands take off and start getting multiple bookings then you have to make a choice but that becomes obvious fairly quickly. I've usually been in two bands, I like it because when a band folds you aren't left without the opportunity to play. Musically it is more interesting because there is different repertoire. Currently my band is gigging as often as I like and is getting multiple bookings each time we play so I've stopped looking for a second band, though I sometimes perform with an old friend from university days. I miss the extended repertoire but a successful band is good too. Your experience is different but that's all, it isn't better or worse just different.

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1444551659' post='2883917'] How cool would it be to be in the situation where the drums are an issue in a pub because they're too quiet. With a decent portable pa with a sub or two and some restraint from bass and guitars and you will be able to engineer a really good full sound foh. Plus your hearing should benefit too. [/quote] I know, I want her drummer.

I don't think this is anything to do with valve sound either. The amps are just eq'd differently. this is really just another variation on the 'it sounds great at home' theme we've had on here several times. Deep bass is difficult to control, depends upon room acoustics and a bass sound that is great with the rest of the band sounds horrible when soloed.

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1444260052' post='2881760'] I'm not entirely comfortable arguing on behalf of the OP, so I'll let her do through the medium of her preceding post... It seems that the concept has been tried and tested, albeit with less than ideal cabs (ie: the bass stack...). If, with those levels, it's suitable for their needs, what else is there to say..? Whatever the room, if a bass stack gives the right sound, the proposed cabs will do the same, surely..? All that's required is to reinforce (I assume quite lightly...) the bass drum, and maybe (even[i] that's[/i] only a 'maybe'...) put the overheads through the back, just enough to get the drummer heard a bit more. [/quote] Hi Dad, (seems odd saying that as I'm probably your age or maybe even older ) I'm not really trying to have an argument (shades of Monty Python here) but trying to help Jennie get the best sound she can. My concern is that what she is suggesting has drawbacks she won't always be able to get around. She describes her band as a power trio and says the audience lose the drums sometimes, which kind of indicates normal pub volumes at least. If she buys these speakers she will get a better sound by using them as a conventional PA, for the reasons I've explained. (keeping stage sound levels down and a clean vocal feed.) If all she is trying to achieve is more drums out front then this is the way to go, with the drums out front. If she wants to put drums through the PA then she has options. The Mackies she has can handle drums if she adds a sub or she can get PA speakers that can handle more bass (including the Barefaced). All I'm trying to do is clarify what her choices are and why. The set up she has tried may have worked OK it just isn't the best and won't work in every space she plays.

That helps a bit. In fact I'm a little jealous as the 'usual problem' is the drums being so loud you have to turn everything else up to be heard. It seems you are happy with your on stage sound but need a bit more drums out front, you have the mics but the PA won't cope with drums. Right? Your best bet if you want a good sound is to keep your current on stage levels and put the drums through a PA which will cope. I'd imagine the Mackies will cope with the overheads but that the kick is overwhelming them with demands to shift more air than they are happy doing. Your choice is either to add some subs with a crossover which stops the bass going through the Mackies or to upgrade the Mackies. Once you do this you can put some bass and guitar through the PA for bigger gigs if you need to. There are three good reasons this is the better bet. More sound on stage means turning up the vocal monitors, or not hearing the vocals. It means more unwanted sounds feeding into the vocal mic and muddying your sound and it means your hearing will be damaged in the medium to long term unless you wear earplugs. If you had no money then I'd admire your ingenuity and say go for using the bass stack in this way if it works for you. If you are going to spend hundreds of pounds or more then you might as well get the best result you can. [quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]If it's too loud on 'stage', it's too loud for the venue,[/font][/color][/quote] Not really, sound drops off at the rate of 6dB every time you double the distance so if you want 90dB (loudish hi fi) at the back of a venue you need an uncomfortable level of well over 100dB on stage.

[quote name='Mudpup' timestamp='1444214325' post='2881135'] Zoom B1ON [url="http://www.gak.co.uk/en/zoom-b1on-bass-effects-pedals/104730?gclid=CPmG_f6UsMgCFWaK2wodAO0AOw"]http://www.gak.co.uk...CFWaK2wodAO0AOw[/url] Link inludes free headphones! Best £40 you'll ever spend - aux in, phones out, amp modelling, fx, tuner, looper, drum machine. Easy to use, batteries last ages. [/quote] Quite right. I've tried a few options, this is the best, complete stand alone solution, sounds good Drum machine/metronome is useful as is tuner and iPod sounds great through it. Tidy little package as well. Can't believe it is so cheap.

[quote] I'm thinking of getting a couple of those Barefaced FR800 powered PA speakers to use as "sort of subs" for our PA.[/quote] I think this works out at well over £2000, for that you have a range of options. I don't doubt that these are great but you ought to look at other speakers. The FR800 is just a PA speaker though I'm sure it is probably a very good one. If Barefaced is what you want then you could use the LF800 as a "sort of sub" . In the end though the Barefaced are just good PA speakers and there are other high end alternatives. If you did buy them then using them in place of the Mackies would be the best way to use them as someone else has suggested [quote] if you put bass and guitar through the FOH you start to lose headroom for the vocals - you have to push things and feedback can creep in. We wouldn't be using these as "subs" in the truest sense, as they are full range and are cable of more than just the low notes I gather - but they will add some sub-like stuff I suspect.[/quote] The reason subs give you more headroom is that you are splitting the signal and this has two effects. One is that with say, 40% of the power going to the subs and 60% to the tops both have an easier time of it. The second is that with no need to make any treble you can use a speaker designed only for deep bass. Without the deep bass the excursion of the tops is reduced and with it distortion. The point is that it only works if you stop bass going to the tops and the treble going to the subs. [quote] We would be putting them at the back and putting mainly the vocals out of the FOH tops and then the bass, guitar, kick and drum overhead mic out of the FR800s at the back. When I say "at the back" the pub and club "stages" we play are usually not more than a few yards in depth. There are six aux outs from the desk which will allow us to run, in effect, four main outs - the two usual ones to the FOH tops and two more to the FR800 devices. Doing it this way would even give us the opportunity of going DI and not having a bass or even guitar cab on stage (power trio format).[/quote] This is where it gets confusing. You are basically using the FR800's for bass and drums, this means the main thing you will have changed is that you will have more drum sounds on stage. Is this what you want to achieve? It will mean a messier vocal sound because the vocal mic will pick up any sound that reaches it, you'll have a lot of drums coming through the vocal mic. If you do persuade the guitarist to use a DI system then that creates some additional problem. I think you need to make a decision. Are you trying to sort out the PA overload problem so you can put the drums through the PA successfully, are you trying to get a better bass stack or are you aiming to replace the backline with stage monitors? Each one will have a different solution giving you three different purchases you might make. I've tried putting drums through the bass stack by the way, it's horrible; you lose a lot of what you hear of the bass and the sound you hear is dominated by drums, you'll hear less of the vox and guitar and with the drums coming from your stack instead of to one side you lose information. [quote]I wonder what y'all think of where I should place them. The world and his wife seems to put subs up front with the FOH tops - which I have been reading isn't the greatest idea. I see some "experts" saying that you should put them at the back. Will this work - and would we have to worry about any sort of feedback from the drum mics and the FR800 placement at the back?[/quote] You [b]will [/b]increase feedback problems. Amplifying drums and having them coming from the back line means at least a 3dB increase in the on stage sound level and guitar and vox will have to turn up too to re-balance the on stage sound levels so. Probably you'll end up with an extra 6dB on stage. Apart from the long term damage to your hearing ( this is 4x the power damaging your ears) I doubt if you have 6dB of headroom before feedback in the average pub space. The battle is to keep as much sound as possible off stage, not to add to it. You could easily spend half your money on a couple of 'proper' subs and the other half on a new bass stack rather than £2000+ on what you are suggesting and this would sound better. Alternatively you could simply replace the Mackies with the FR800's as has been suggested.

This was the tone that made me want to play bass, almost anything on the album but the tone, the tone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wAv0TplhNY